Talk:Soul Reaper (Bleach)

Appearance
Does anyone else think that the 'appearance' modification part of this article is pointless and superfluous? I think it's enough that modifications appear in individual character pages already. But if no one objects, I'll probably remove the section and instead make a 'uniforms and insignia' section, which will have information about uniform modification (but not other appearance traits). -- Ynhockey 06:13, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Agreed, Ynhockey. Although I don't see the point in having a 'uniforms & insignia page.' As long as the appearance modifications are noted on the character pages, I don't think we need to create something new. -- yueni 19:43, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

The uniforms and insignia would be for uniforms and insignia :) it would describe what Gotei 13 soldiers wear basically. The mods would just be a side note. -- Ynhockey 22:06, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Hohō
This art was listed earlier as foot combat, but the most recent fansubs have it (Aizen mentions it in passing in ep 62) translated as "step techniques". That would possibly be a disparity in translation, except that the video accompanying shows a character performing shunpo (flash stepping) and the inference is that hohō is a greater scheme that shunpo is only a portion of. If that's the case, we probably should mention it. Anyone have any further information regarding that?--Mitsukai 22:47, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I thought shunpo was a demon arts technique. It's pretty confusing at this point. But if anyone has evidence to support your theory then by all means; it sounds logical. -- Ynhockey 13:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Hohō's kanji litterly means 'Step execution' or 'Method of stepping' (with 'Ho' being 'step' and 'hō' being 'Method; Execution; direction'. Thus, 'foot combat' is an inappropriate translation, not to mention totaly wrong. The art of Hakuda, which translates to 'White Fist', is the art of bare-handed combat. Hohō is the practice of agility and speed. Editing the article now.


 * In regards to Ynhockey, Shunpo means 'flash step' and seems to be executed without any verbal enchantment. All forms of kidou, even when eishouhaki (Incantation Bypass) is used, require at least the Kidou name and number to be said out loud (this is referenced by Byakuya, who seems to be a versatile kidou user of spells even within the 60's, has to say the name and number for Hadou #5, Byakurai). Therefore, Shunpo is considered to be simply an ability or technique that involves reiatsu concentration to the legs to enhance movements. Kishyotai 15:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There is no evidence whatsoever that all kidō requires a name and number. There is evidence to the contrary. For example, shunkō, a type of kidō-hakuda mix (according to Yoruichi), requires neither a name or number to be said. I believe there have also been instances of regular kidō spells being said without the number, but this I cannot prove without inspecting the entire series again, which I am not willing to do right now. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:36, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm perfectly aware of shunkou, but you're misinterpreting the translation. Shunkou isn't defined as a kidou spell or ability, however, simply a mix using both kidouryoku (Kidou Energy) in conjunction with physical strikes from hakuda attacks. This means it is a hybrid technique as opposed to a kidou spell itself. That is why Yoruichi's version of shunkou and Soifon's version of shunkou have two different manifestations; Yoruichi's is clearly lightning while Soifon's is mostly wind-based. If shunkou were a specific spell, then they wouldn't have the varied effects like you see in the manga. There are no occurrences in the manga where kidou is used without name and number (and optionally incantation) Kishyotai 19:01, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As further evidence, when Yoruichi is fighting Soifon and she uses shunkou, she always refers to it as a 'technique', never a spell. Her famous quote 'This technique is too dangerous' implies that it is just that, a technique, and not a spell of any sort. Kishyotai 19:26, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No one said anything about spells. There's no canonical evidence that kidō, as one of the four forms of shinigami combat, is limited to spells. There could be countless kidō techniques that have not been revealed. In the same way, shunpo could be a kidō technique (even though the anime implies that it's a hohō one). -- Ynhockey (Talk) 21:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Italics
It seems, on casual inspection, that this article, as well as the main Bleach article, have very inconsistent use of italics as respect to romaji romanization. The word shinigami is one perfect example, as well as Onmitsukidō. I certainly don't have time to fix these inconsistencies, but future edits should be aware of them. Italics should be used for any non-English word (though this may be a relatively large number). fruitofwisdom 05:54, 1 January 2006 (UTC)


 * We (the editors who frequently edit Bleach articles) agreed to use some terminology as if it were English, owing to the fact that no one would understand the English terminology if it were used. A prime example is shinigami. Therefore, it should not be italicized. Some terms however, which are written in rōmaji on a one-time basis, like onmitsukidō, will be italicized. If you find an instance where they're not, please change. Not on terms that are never written in English though (e.g. shinigami). -- Ynhockey 13:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with the one-time italics decision and the use of romanized words. Especially where translation is difficult or questionable, or where the romanized Japanese is used with similar frequency to any translation, I think this is the best alternative.  I would, however, like to suggest that all words that fall into this italics rule be given their own individual articles if at all possible.  Decentralizing the topic somewhat would help with the in-universe perspective issue, as well as making individual concepts presented in Japanese more accessible to readers who aren't as familiar with the language or the details of the series. -- Yakaji 10:28, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Sleeves
I think the older captains have the white coats with sleeves and the newer ones don't. They probably changed between 200 to 150 years ago. Kurotsuchi probably inherited Kisuke's coat 200 years ago, so Kurotsuchi has sleeves, but when Byakuya becomes captain he does not have sleeves. Hitsugaya, the youngest, does not have sleeves and Ukitake, much older, does. Soi Fong became a captain after Kisuke left, and her white coat has no sleeves. Kenpachi probably ripped (he might have cut off the arms) the sleeves off the former 11th captain's coat.


 * That is possible, but we don't have proof. Maybe there is mention in the databook though, haven't read it all. If you can provide a source, the information can be included. Also, please sign your name. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:11, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Didn't Tosen have sleeves on his coat as well?24.151.201.121 06:20, 13 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, Kenpachi's coat was that of the captain he killed to become a shinigami and captain. It wasn't issued to him, and it's pretty safe to assume he prolly ripped off the sleeves. In flashbacks he doesn't EVER wear sleeves, they're all ripped off.--Cranial Toy 01:53, 4 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The anime is inconsistent concerning Tosen's sleeves. In a few scenes, he has them, but in most appearnaces, he does not. The manga, however, always portrayed Tosen with sleeves. Lore aura 01:04, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

If anyone here has seen the sword of frenzy OVA, there is a scene that shows 6 captains from 400 years ago; one having a sleeveless haori on the far left. "Canon" is a rather arbitrary term, but so is this sleeve theory involving age--- The OVA doesn't contradict anything in the anime or manga, but the sleeve theory does contradict the OVA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.60.12.138 (talk) 05:58, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Gin pic
I think the picture of Gin that's being used to show the captain's robes should be changed. He's missing a sleeve because of the fight with Hitsugaya and he's still got the ice on his arm. I'll scout around for a better one. -- Cwesk 20:14, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree it's not perfect, but I have a hard time finding one where the shinigami uniform is clearly visible from behind, with the number and all (and where hair doesn't harm the picture). Maybe I didn't look hard enough though. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 10:21, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well... I have a few choices, though each is faulty in its own way. There's a picture with Byakuya, full body from behind, but his hair obscures the collar, and a picture of Aizen, but the lower half of his legs are cut off.  This one of Kenpachi has the same problem as Aizen's.  There's a shot of Komamura that has everything, but isn't exactly high-quality.  It also obscures the collar with his helmet and such.  Soi Fong is a posibility, but it's even worse than Komamura in quality.  Ah, well, that's all I have so far, I'll update if I can find anything better.Mekryd 14:00, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * I found one from the manga of Aizen and Gin that would probably work well. I don't have any editing programs on this computer at the moment, so it'd be good if someone else could crop it. I dunno if it'd be better to keep it with both Aizen and Gin, or just Gin. I'm just linking it to Imageshack, so here: http://img129.imageshack.us/img129/7895/170016jx.jpg -- Cwesk 17:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * That image is good, but I'm not sure it would qualify as fair use. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Not qualify as fair use? How so? It's a solid image to me. --Chemicalist 22:54, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It's taken directly (including size) from the manga. I think fair use only allows promotional pics as long as they are not high-quality. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 23:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)


 * It's not very hard to edit and size it down: http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/3113/ginback1sz.jpg --ACDragonMaster 04:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Spoilers?
Shouldn't this page have a spoiler warning if the list of captains and lieutenants is going to list that trio as "former"? Or alternatively, why not just omit that and leave such spoilery info to the characters' individual pages? --ACDragonMaster 17:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
 * The article already has a spoiler warning. There is also a lot of info there which is much more 'spoilery' (i.e. from newer manga chapters) than the ending of the Soul Society arc. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that any information that might not have been seen in the anime yet should be marked as spoilers. Maybe not just for the Japanese anime either, but things like Nel Tu, Yoruichi, Aizen and the traitors, Espada numbers or anything else that might be qualified as a spoiler to those people that might have not yet seen it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.145.142 (talk) 20:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Good article nominee
I've nominated this article in WP:GAN. I think one the most well-written and comprehensive Bleach-related articles, and has a sufficient amount of illustrations and sources. If anyone decides to reject this as a good article, please state the reasons here so that the frequent Bleach article editors may fix the article and re-nom it sometime in the future. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 15:10, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Good Article Evaluation of Shinigami
This evaluation was done on this version of Shinigami (Bleach) at 23:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC). The evaluation was done by the book.

Criteria:
 * Well-written
 * For the most part, the prose is alright. It's not the clearest reading, and the formatting does not help much, but the concepts are laid out well and are easy to understand as presented. My biggest grammar nitpick is that "enclave" should be "conclave," from context. Also, you could definitely stand to experiment a bit with templates like . On top of that, is it really such a good idea to start the article with a tag, especially considering that it does not terminate? You should definitely rethink some of the things that you've done here.


 * Factually accurate
 * Well, it all looks accurate to me. Most of this stuff can be complicated &mdash; good work on keeping the article simple and yet honest.


 * Broad
 * Eh, this is fairly broad, but probably not comprehensive.


 * Neutrally written
 * Actually, this is some of the driest prose I've found on Wikipedia. Nice work. Not too fun to read, though...


 * Stable
 * Going back 15 versions, there has been one revert and no vandalism. Most of the edits have been changing "BLEACH" to "Bleach" in accordance with style, and also a bit of wikification. Nothing major, except the addition of the template.


 * Well-referenced
 * Yep.


 * Images
 * The page contains five images. The tags on Image:Gotei13.png and Image:Chamber46.png should probably be, not ; however, the current tag is acceptable under policy. (Actually, the images in question may not be heraldic at all, since they represent fictional entities. If this is the case, then they may be taggable with a different fair use tag, provided that they are in fact considered to be under copyright.) The other three images are protected by fair use.

Summary:


 * Well-written: Fail 
 * Factually accurate: Pass 
 * Broad: Pass 
 * Neutrally written: Pass 
 * Stable: Pass 
 * Well-referenced: Pass 
 * Images: Pass 

Congratulations &mdash; you are now a Good Article. -  Corbin  Be excellent  23:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for evaluating the article. Actually enclave is correct (sejoutoukyorin is like a separate entity within another, it's not just a metting room but a whole city of sorts), and I've made the other fixes (not sure what you meant regarding templates though). -- Ynhockey (Talk) 10:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * No problem. I was not aware of the exclave status of the inner chamber; clearly fansubbers do not know how to properly express that concept in subtitles, or perhaps I missed it out of carelessness. Anyway, the only thing about templates that confused me is that usually is terminated with . -  Corbin  Be excellent  16:55, 25 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The difficulty with the Spoiler tags is that the content that could be considered spoilers is scattered in varying degrees throughout the entire article. There are numberous mild spoilers, in the fact that while the information doesn't necessarily have to do much with the plot, it isn't revealed or stated until late in the story, and there are several rather significant spoilers as well.  I'm really not sure there's much that can be done about that. --ACDragonMaster 21:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Individual Squad Specialties?
Should we talk about each squads tendencies or assigned reasonability?

Like Squad 11 are war-like battle lovers, while squad 4 is a bunch of healing and recovery specialists, and squad 10 seems to be responsible for information gathering and relay.
 * Other than Divisions 4 and 11, we have no official information about specialities and should not speculate. Also I think you may be confusing divisions/companies with squads - squads are small units, usually up to a dozen soldiers, led by a junior officer. For example, Hanatarō Yamada commands a squad. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * You're right, I'm thinking Squads not divisions. But I thought that more information was released through manga. I thought that they said that Hitsugaya was incharge of information gathering?
 * Correct me if I'm wrong, but I could have sworn that I heard Soifon mentioning in both the anime and the manga that the 2nd Division was in charge of special ops and espionage. Can anyone confirm this?--StevenFurtado 00:48, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No, this is speculation. Most Bleach fans associate Soifon's role in the special forces (onmitsukidō), which is indeed in charge of espionage, with her role as the captain of the 2nd Division. However, there is no proof that the 2nd Division has anything to do with the special forces; so far we only know for sure that Soifon is both the general of the special forces and the captain of the 2nd Division. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 07:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * What about the 12th squad? Isn't that the specialist in research? Also, I was thinking about mentioning the limits that were explained in episode 121 (how captains and lieutenants have 80% of their power sealed except under special circumstances) as it is mentioned in other pages, such as Hitsugaya's but never fully explained. -- Sam 01:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe that's the same case as 2nd Division. Mayuri is the head of the Research Institute, which was founded by Kisuke, who also preceded Mayuri as 12th Division Captain.  However, there's no particular evidence that 12th Division is the Research Institute.  You'll notice that Akon and the other research specialists don't seem to carry zanpakuto, whereas the men that Mayuri turned into walking bombs (to trap Ishida and Orihime) were clearly standard 'foot soldier' shinigami of 12th Division.
 * As for the power cap, that was explained. Shinigami of Captain or Vice-Captain class have such powerful reiatsu that it disturbs the local balance in the mortal plane.  Case in point: Even before Ichigo went to Soul Society, the influence of his reiatsu was strong enough to awaken the spiritual powers of his friends, Chad and Orihime. -- Son Goharotto (talk) 16:22, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it still too early to mention that Squad 8 may be specialized? It seems to me that since Nanao Ise and Lisa Yadoumaru have carried books in their capacity as lieutenant, that this suggests a specialization. Probably just speculation, but I noticed the similarity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MayDay89 (talk • contribs) 05:14, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It is indeed speculation. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 15:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

GA Re-Review and In-line citations
''Note: This article has a small number of in-line citations for an article of its size and subject content. Currently it would not pass criteria 2b.'' Members of the WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. Agne 04:49, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the warning. We'll do something about it... --tjstrf 05:00, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Unfortunently, Inline citations probably won't be what gets this article, a WP:GA/R disputes entry has been open on this article, and currently its 4 to 0 in favor of delisting, primarily because the article is much too "in-universe", violating WP:FICTION. It's almost been a week, but anyone is free to chime in, otherwise, the dispute will probably be closed and the article will be delisted soon. Homestarmy 02:31, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Well... I'm not sure exactly how we're supposed to fix that. I suppose the biggest problem is that, with the anime only on episode 3 or so, most of the sources we could cite have been in Japanese or the unreliable bloggish types. --tjstrf 03:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The exact guideline is here: Manual of Style (writing about fiction) Homestarmy 21:31, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Shinigami impersonations in real life
This is the only kind of section I can think of that would be out-of-universe, and we should write it to preserve this as a good article. There should be information about shinigami-related cosplaying and merchandising, at least, but feel free to come up with more ideas. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:26, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Mission aids?
Shouldn't the Cell Phone be included here?


 * Do all Shinigami us the cell phones or is it just Rukia? (Duane543 04:52, 13 December 2006 (UTC))

Where is the Hell Moth (butterfly)? I doesn't it help the Shinigami travel from Soul society to the real world and also acts as an massager. (Duane543 04:23, 28 November 2006 (UTC))
 * Yes the hell moth should probably be included. Feel free to do so. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Do all Shinigami use cell phones? Of course they do, Hitsugaya spends most of his time using his cellphone (See episode 122 and the issue its based off of for one example), Matsumoto has used hers at least once in the manga storyline (See episode 141 and the issue its based off of) and Renji has also used it a couple of times before (Although that was in the filler arc.) - Signed Alexis —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.145.142 (talk) 01:31, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Delisted Good Article Nomination
Heres what killed the GA for this article:


 * Violation of Criteria 1a. The lead seems to me more in tune to say, Otaku rather than a non-anime watching person. Plus, the lead is too small, and doesn't involve a basic synopsis of the page itself. I suggest a complete rewrite to at least give the lead some meat and also try and get it abit more general than fancruft.
 * Violation of Criteria 1d. I still feel that some of the technical terms should be abit more in depth.
 * Violation of Criteria 2a-d. Many Anime articles get killed right here, because they fail to properly use references or don't have enough of them to make it seem that it doesn't look like fancruft a/or original research. This is what's killing other anime articles from becoming GA nods, like Cowboy Bebop. A collaboration failed to get many reference marks into CB, and when I suggested in the nomination that i'd try and find my Tokyopop CB guides, another editor lambasted me for even using them as sources. Tokyopop's guides are at least better than fansites, because Tokyopop has to stake their reputation on publishing those guides, and if they get something wrong, it could cost them sales.

Those are the sticking points. Discuss. --293.xx.xxx.xx 09:33, 11 October 2006 (UTC) Those are the main sticking points for me.
 * You just mean a rewrite of the lead, correct? At first I read that as rewriting the whole article.  I can't really imagine that there's much to discuss, though.  You told us what's wrong and now we go fix it!--Anaraug 10:12, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * For the lead -- it is too small, but making it meatier seems to be making it more otaku, as well. Would it be appropriate to have the lead start out with a general description of the actual concept of shinigami from Japanese culture, and then explain how shinigami in bleach fill this role by yada yada yada?--Anaraug 11:04, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Your choice, i'm just saying the lead is way too small for it's own good. Best suggestion I could give is maybe take a look at some GA real life organizations and take cues from them.

Also, i'm abit concerned about the verifiability of some material in Combat and Operations and mission aids; they may need more reference marks. --293.xx.xxx.xx 21:25, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Name
Since this is the ENGLISH Wikipedia, shouldn't we change the name of this page? -Unknownwarrior33 02:46, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * No. --tjstrf talk 02:48, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that outstanding contribution. I'm looking for a serious discussion, not responses that are a step away from vandalism. -Unknownwarrior33 02:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. We already decided this some time ago on the main Talk:Bleach (manga) pages and it would need to be discussed there if you believe we should reconsider it. --tjstrf talk 03:11, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Also, the obligatory Google testing just to get it over with: "soul reaper" Bleach vs. Shinigami Bleach. --tjstrf talk 03:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Shinigami it's a keyword. It shouldn't be translated in english, so as we don't translate Zanpakuto or Hueco Mundo. They aren't foreign words, they are just keywords. And should be accepted as they are. Lord Air 05:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Uniforms
It's not much, but I have some information. ( I don't know how to use the coding on wiki, or I'd add it myself. ^^; )

The white undershirt referred to in the uniform section is called a 'kisode,' I've been told. (I'll have to look up the spelling, since I can't find it in my dictionary.) Also, the article refers to the black portion of the uniform as a kimono and a hakama, when I believe it is actually a gi and a hakama. A gi is more shirtlike than a kimono.

I hope this was helpful!

Spiffy 18:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


 * 'Kosode' is the usual spelling. This page defines it:  'The kosode or "small sleeve" refers to the small opening of the sleeve which differentiates it from the big open sleeves of the layers of Heian (794-1172 CE) court robes worn over it. The kosode was originally an undergarment which came out from under the karaginu-mo during the Kamakura period (1172-1333 CE) and transitioned to outerwear.'


 * I'm not sure calling the black outerwear a 'gi', though, would be correct either. 'Kimono' means simply 'thing to wear', so it's technically correct for the whole uniform.


 * I'm glad you brought this up - calling it 'undershirt' was bugging me, but I didn't have a good substitution. *grin*


 * Corgi 07:27, 8 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The entire uniform itself is called the shihakushou, or the "Garment of Dead Souls". The white belt is an obi sash (which is odd, since obi are normally very wide), and yes, the upper garments are called a gi and the lower garments are called a hakama. The sandals are called waraji. Kishyotai 15:15, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

On the unquie ways that shinigami wear there clothes it says that Soifon wears her Zanpakuto on her back, but it doesn't say that for Matsumoto.Ultimaterasengan 16:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Division insignia
I'm not sure who edited the insignia table to change the Division 10 daffodil (narcissus, etc.) to an anemone, but if you merely look at the picture the word is linked to, compared to the graphic and to the flower in the poster (see the scans posted here: http://community.livejournal.com/renji_rukia/80605.html, http://img285.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hitsuflowerposterhb7.jpg, http://img285.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ranflowerposter1vz7.jpg) it hardly resembles an anemone. I'm not changing the text back because it hints of edit-war, but I had to point out the irrationality of the change.

Corgi 07:38, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Additions
Shouldn't the existence of organizations such as the Shinigami Women Association and the nobility be mentioned here? A good portion (namely most of the female shinigami articles) of the character articles mention either of them. Sephiroth BCR 17:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I think there should be a section on it.There should be the members,the rank(Yachiru is President,while Nanao is Vice) and the genaral things they do.The omakes mention they "influence" the Central 46 and the decisions they make I think.--Hanaichi 10:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree that such a section should be made, although it should be under another section (at least) titled something like 'Official shinigami organizations'. In other words, it shouldn't be a ==Sub-heading== on its own. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

removed division insignia
Regarding this edit: the source "Bleach promotional poster series clearly displaying the division flowers" is arguably OR - I recall that the section was once tagged as such. (The "X or Y" on a few of them just adds to the OR-ness.) --Pentasyllabic 03:30, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Have you seen the posters in question? When I said "clearly displaying" I meant "contains a detailed full-colour drawing that identifies the flower beyond a reasonable shadow of a doubt". (I marked the others that did not have poster images as cite-needed in hopes that more posters or illustrations could be found.)
 * I thought citing the posters made a better source than the blog (which in turn, cited the posters) did. But if you're challenging the identifications, then yes most of them (i.e. those without posters) should be removed. (If you aren't challenging them, then there's no reason to remove it.) --tjstrf talk 02:20, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think I've seen the posters in question, I actually thought the ref was referring to Image:GoteiFlower.jpg (the black and white version on the page.) If the posters show colored flowers as you say, then including them is fine by me. Sorry for the misunderstanding... --Pentasyllabic 07:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The links are some place in my talk archives. I don't know how complete the poster set was overall, but for a couple examples from the set (quick Google attempt pulled these ones up) here are Renji and Byakuya, both clearly holding Camellias. There were also posters for Gin, Rukia, Hanataro, Hitsugaya, possibly Kyoraku, and a weird one of Ichigo holding a sunflower. For those divisions at least, the matches were unmistakable. (It's also a surprisingly identifiable match from the flowers themselves to the stylized logo versions in most cases, the only iffy one being the 1st division.) --tjstrf talk 08:23, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It's 5:30am and thus I don't have any thoughts on this worth mentioning at the moment, however I did dig through your talk archives and the links there to find this post featuring scans of the posters in question. --ACDragonMaster 10:38, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

"Four Methods of Combat"
This article has a header under the "Four Methods of Combat". I recently addressed the issue of what was formerly called 'Foot Combat' (which is incorrect; see the 'Foot Combat' header for more information). However, upon attempting to edit this area, I found that the entire section that is under could now be considered incorrect.

Aizen, in that chapter, says that there are 'Four areas that a shinigami can improve upon' he does not say that they are four methods of combat. For instance, Kidou may not be directly combat (there are those who believe that Kidou has a healing aspect to it, since it is the 'magic' of Bleach's universe). Additionally, Hohou itself isn't combat at all; it's one's agility, speed, and is the start of one's mastery of shunpo.

I propose that we change that header to 'Four Skills of Shinigami' or something similar, due to the now-incorrect nature of the header's title. Kishyotai 15:12, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Your theory is interesting, however, there's no canonical proof to these claims. It clearly says both in the manga (175-09) and anime (ep. 61) that these are actually 4 forms of combat, not just 'four areas that a shinigami can improve upon'. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:52, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Gigai
Is it known whether all gigais are specially made to look like the shinigami it's given to, or do they just change appearance according to the shinigami? It would appear that they're specially made, and who wears them had no baring on it's appearance, but I'd like to be sure.--Cranial Toy 01:57, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Good question, I think its like they have it specially made. I'm not sure though. Note the Komamura says he has a "special gigai" for visiting the real world, and his lieutenent thought it was a dog gigai. However I don't remember a source in the manga, so we can't be entirely sure.-- Hana ichi  02:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

To avoid making a new useless topic, do gigais suppress a shinigamis power so they don't influence humans? I mean, if not, wouldn't urahara affect humans alot more than ichigo does? AlphaNinja25 04:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


 * No, they don't. Ichigo's just inept when it comes to controlling his power. Urahara isn't, and and wouldn't affect humans even if he was around them constantly. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 09:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, that makes sense. That should have been obvious to me. I mean it's basics, they talk about it a lot during the beginning about control. Sorry for wasting your time. AlphaNinja25 20:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Salaries
Somewhere within the article it is stated that shinigami receive salaries. I do not believe this is true seeing as there are bounties on the heads of hollows. Any insight?Ph15h 09:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Eh, I'm not sure about this one. But logically, if killing hollows are the only way to earn cash (kan), the shinigami wouldn't make much of a living. I think it was said that Renji's glasses cost half of his salary, showing that shinigami do get salaries.-- Hana  ichi  10:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

2nd Division
Is it safe to say that the second division deals directly with the Special forces? Seeing as both Yoruichi and the current captain have both been heads of the special forces. Ph15h 09:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Nope, thats speculation. Look at the vice, Omeada. He doesn't seem to be connected to the special forces in anyway. Yes, we known Yoruichi was the ex-head of the special forces, but there is nowhere that says she was the 2nd division captain at that time.-- Hana ichi  10:13, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Out of Universe Challenge
Well, the main reason for deletion is lack of "out-of-universe" material. Well, it's time to get some of that. KyuuA4 05:28, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Well the result was keep anyway. Sasuke9031 (talk) 21:07, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * That's irrelevant. It's still an issue. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:29, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry. I must not have worded myself correctly.  What I meant to say was, the issue is still there, just no longer in the scope of an AfD.  However if we don't clean this up, it may becoe an AfD again. Sasuke9031 (talk) 08:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Are Shinigami a Japanese belief?
The opening paragraph says so, but the Shinigami article proper seems to claim otherwise. As far as I can tell Shinigami are a cultural import, a novelty adapted from the Grim Reaper.

Which, incidentally, explains why so many fictional works use the concept in so many variations - there is no strong cultural tradition to tie their hands. Shinigami in Death Note, for instance, are nothing like those of Bleach, other than both groups living in their own world and having some capability of cross over to Earth. That seems to me to be a strong hint that Shinigami are pretty much a blank slate as concepts go. Luis Dantas (talk) 15:49, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Well you can always Be Bold Bushido Brown (talk) 23:33, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I suppose you are right. Why not? Luis Dantas (talk) 01:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

46 Chambers(of Shaolin)
Where is it said that the Shinigami Academy isn't under the Jurisdiction of Chamber 46? Bushido Brown (talk) 23:37, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Sōkyoku
Is the description of the Sōkyoku's power in Aizen's letter to Momo actually true? Everything else in it was a lie, so why should we assume Aizen was telling the truth about Sōkyoku? 76.123.216.96 (talk) 07:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * He really had nothing to gain by lying about its power, and it seems like it would be common knowledge in Soul Society. Until proven false (as was the case with the rest of the letter) it will be regarded as fact. ~SnapperTo 18:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Ran'Tao
While it isn't in the manga, Ran'Tao should be listed under former captains with a notation that this is only true for the anime. As we aren't dividing bleach anime and manga into two separate sections,Jinnai (talk) 09:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC) both should be represented here.


 * Ahem, when does it ever say Ran'Tao is a former captain? She was just incharge of the Bount group, I don't recall her ever saying she was captain.-- Hana ichi  09:17, 19 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Indeed, but you can look at her garment in sceenshots. I will have to do a search again, but it is clearly a captain's unform during the flashbacks. You're right, it doesn't outright say it, but it doesn't need to if you can use your eyes.Jinnai (talk) 04:33, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Most head researchers wear a captain look a like outfit in the 12th division. Take Mayuri's surbordinates for an example, it looks like a captain haori but has no symbol on it.-- Hana ichi  09:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Category:2001 introductions
Does this include characters? Franchises, I guess, but not 100% certain if it applies for that. Thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 17:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Difference in insignia
There're some differences between the insignia of English version and of Japanese version. In Japanese version;
 * The 2nd division- 翁草 okinagusa, A kind of buttercup with a purple flower (Pulsatilla cernua)
 * The 3rd division- Pot marigold (Calendula officinalis. cf. Marigold, Tagetes patula)
 * The 4th division- 竜胆 rindō, Gentian (Gentiana scabra var. buergeri)
 * The 5th division- 馬酔木 asebi or ashibi, Japanese andromeda (Pieris japonica)
 * The 9th division- Poppy(especially white)
 * The 13th division- Snowdrop

I'm sorry to have troubled you with my poor English.--61.203.135.104 (talk) 08:33, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Adding a screenshot as a source?
An edit I made to the uniforms (specifically, captain sleeves) section was undone because of a lack of source (which is bs, because the source is the OVA). I can provide a screencap, but I don't think it's viable to list a screencap as a source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.60.12.138 (talk) 02:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
 * I think there was another reason for reverting your edit. You should ask User:The Rogue Penguin his reasoning on User talk:The Rogue Penguin. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 06:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I reverted it because that one scene proves nothing. We were told nothing about how long they were captains, only that they died. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 21:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The Royal Guard(Zero Division)
Well, we can all guess the Royal Guard looks over the King? Pretty crazy >< Weareweare (talk) 19:53, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
 * This has actually been revealed a very long time ago in the SOULs databook. The news is that it's called 'division zero', although we need to see the RAW to get precise details. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 20:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Yoruichi
OMG, it does appear that Yoruichi was the 2nd Division captain. However, I'd wait for the RAW to insert this information into the articles. So much for the theory that the special forces are on the same level as Gotei 13. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 20:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Indeed, Kubo you sneaky bastard, why must you fuck with our worldview so? Then again, it's probably just like Yamamoto, holding one seat by virtue of holding another. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 20:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Special forces
Does anyone else see that the Special Forces are actually Soul Society's military police? They catch deserters and criminals, make arrests, and have a prison unit. This is true for most military police units in world armies. Should anything be added about that? -- Ynhockey (Talk) 12:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm afriad that might come close to OR...-- Hana ichi  12:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Obvious parallels are not OR, although some users do request refs for them if they are controversial (read: not so obvious). I would wait to see the functions of the 2nd, 4th and 5th division to make a detailed explanation, but I think we currently have enough information to have a simple parallel between the Special Forces and military police forces around the world. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 13:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Page moved
This page has been moved per consensus here. Any concerns should be brought up on this talk page, WT:BLEACH, or at the appointed discussion. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 18:15, 16 April 2008 (UTC)