Talk:Soulforce

This Page is a Mess, Needs Cleanup by a Neutral Party
I added a neutrality tag to the article.

1) First, pejorative terms and a condescending tone pervade the entire article. How could anybody possibly believe that the word "incident" could be a neutral way to describe an event?  If you are the person getting protested, you might call it an incident.  The protesters might call it a brave civil action.  Everybody else wants a neutral name for it.

2) Second, the article takes a somewhat negative tone toward the Soulforce organization as a whole. Entire sections exist for no better reason than to minimize a few particular events.

3) Third, the words of Mel White are taken out of context without a source . . . And the quote seems to cast a condescending light on Soulforce's impact. (See the end of the first HUGE paragraph)

4) Fourth, there isn't a decent history of this organization in the article. Location?  Details?  Subdivisions?  Founders other than Mel White?  I want to know some of the history of the organization.  Where is information about Coretta Scott King?  The first 200 people who got together?

5) Fifth, a majority of the article is devoted to actions of the Soulforce youth division that shouldn't even be in this article: specifially anything about Equality Ride stops. There's an entire huge article on Wikipedia about the Equality Ride. There is absolutely no reason Equality Ride actions should be included in this article for any reason, given the scope of this organization's work... There needs to be a short description of the Equality Ride in the article, however, LINKING to the page.  This does not exist yet--and, by the way, there is no decent connection between the two pages yet-- the Equality Ride page is far more refined.  Who would even know that the Equality Ride article exists by reading this?

6) Sixth, the military sit-in referred to in the first section was also a youth action that should not be focused on in the first paragraph as if it were a defining of this organization's work. To fix this, there needs to be a sub-section about youth actions so it doesn't steal the primary focus of the article.

I wish I had time to fix this, but I know somebody knowledgeable might read this. My recommendation: re-write the entire article with factual purpose and focus in mind. Cite real articles. There are plenty of them if you're willing to dig through old newspaper archives and pay for the luxury. There's also Soulforce.org, the Equality Ride page to refer to, plenty of blogs, and a plethora of official documents. Didn't Seattle declare an official day in honor of Soulforce? (Or was that the Equality Ride)... Didn't New York City do something similar? (You see, I can't write this article, because it might end up too rosy!)

--flowingfire

Argument about Relevance
Is the incident at Baylor really worth mentioning? The members of Soulforce have been arrested other times, too - what makes the incident at Baylor worthy of inclusion in this article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)


 * I think it's a good idea to include information on what's happened at Soulforce's protests. It gives the reader a very clear idea about how these protests have been received. —Remember the dot (talk) 17:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Reply to argument
These sections don't even belong in this article. They belong in the Equality Ride article. If you want to add them, figure out a way to do it in a neutral tone, because it's certainly not neutral as presented here. --flowingfire


 * Greetings friend! I will help clean this up if others are available to offer suggestions after I do an edit —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.228.37.86 (talk) 23:44, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with flowingfire on this point as does wp:summary style. These subsections should be moved to the main article at Equality Ride. Pursuant to this, I have moved the Baylor Univ. subsection to the main article. Because it was longer than other similar paragraphs there and made statements not supported by its sole source from The Baylor Lariat, I have paraphrased the subsection such that it only includes supported statements. Other reliable sources may validate claims made on this article and could be added to the main. Time permitting, I will work on migrating this article's other Equality Ride subsections. Ruodyssey (talk) 10:06, 12 December 2009 (UTC)


 * I've just merged the Covenant College incident into Equality Ride. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ruodyssey (talk • contribs) 23:53, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Need a Criticisms Section
I'm getting tired of being referred to this article from other articles' criticisms seciton. It seems every time I read an article that is about anything conservative, I come accross a 'criticisms and controversy' section that has something about Soulforce. Well how about some criticism of Soulforce? What is wrong with wikipedia? Talk about bias! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.108.5 (talk) 02:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Someone added a critisms section, and it is continually being removed by a few users on a range of grounds. It appears that there is some / contriversial / political relationship with the organisation 'Focus on the Family', which probably should be included.  While readers may disagree with the critisms made by FOF, I can't see how we can deny they exist.  Any opinions?

Clovis Sangrail (talk) 02:38, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Self-published criticism by Focus on the Family is not worth repeating. See WP:SPS: "However, caution should be exercised when using [self-published] sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so." --02:46, 27 September 2009 (UTC)


 * This section depends on the WP:SPS onenewsnow. Onenewsnow is a publication of American Family Association, and may not be used to comment on third-party sources. Onenewsnow may be used in the American Family Association article. --01:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Dude, SPS read the whole thing. - Schrandit (talk) 16:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Dude, that only covers the statements from Soulforce about themselves, not the American Family Association; just as we can't use Soulforce to prop up a criticism section on American Family Association we can't do the reverse either. Start with WP:RS by Wikipedia's standards and apply due weight to any content, then ensure it's presented NPOV. As for the start of all this? No, we do not want a "controversy" or "criticism" section on pretty much any article for exactly the reasons spelled out so far - it invites poor writing and sourcing. Really we're aiming to write good articles. Even if some pointy statement is wedged in now it will be removed soon enough as POV. Find reliable sources and see what they say. The American Family Association is only reliable for an article about them just as Soulforce's opinions are likely only reliable on an articles about Soulforce - and we'd rather have independent sourcing. -- Banj e  b oi   00:28, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Protests against the Vatican
The organization has protested against the Vatican, this could maybe be included in the controversies section. ADM (talk) 00:53, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Article Needs Sources
The vast majority of this article is devoid of any references. 74.70.38.127 (talk) 16:38, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Focus on the Family
Focus on the family can be used as a source for statements from Focus on the Family. The material is sourced and neutrally worded, there is no legitimate reason it should be excluded. - Schrandit (talk) 17:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * No, Focus on the Family can be used on the Focus on the Family article. To prop up a controversy section - which in itself shows a POV problem - you need independent reliable sources. Focus on the Family is hardly such. Ask at WP:RSN for guidance. -- Banj e  b oi   17:53, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * In a word, no. Statements of opinion are not restricted to the pages of their originator and it is merely your opinion that the text is POV. - Schrandit (talk) 17:56, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm disappointed you continued to edit war to reinsert contested material. I have asked for more eyes at Reliable sources/Noticeboard. -- Banj e  b oi   18:09, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm disappointed at the fact that you seem so focused on the validity of this one citation, when the article has been tagged for needing citations for more than a year. The vast majority of the article is unsourced.  There are only three footnotes in the whole thing.  Entire paragraphs are unsourced, and appear to be taken from Soulforce's own materials.  And yet, you seem very focused on one sentence that--unlike most of the rest of the article--IS sourced.  In any event, to suggest that Focus on the Family is not a reliable source as to the position taken by Focus on the Family on an issue is just off base.  I am re-inserting the citation with a direct quote this time.  I hope you will reconsider what I consider to be completely unreasonable reverts.  Thank you.

72.224.119.119 (talk) 19:05, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Controversy section again
I have deleted the Controversy section, not just because most of the article was already controversy, but because the content that was there was not generally supportable: So once one strips the inaccuracy out of this section, there is little left of substance. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 20:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) It cited quotes from Caleb Price as representing Focus on the Family; while Price works for them, it is not clear that he is there spokesperson; the source linked to specifically refers to him as a research analyst.
 * 2) The quote did not accuse Soulforce of being a wolf in sheep's clothing, as claimed; if I say "don't eat that unwashed apple, because some unwashed apples make you sick", I am not saying that the apple you are holding will make you sick.
 * 3) The claim that Soulforce responded to Focus's accusations was not supported by the source given. The source given said that Soulforce was responding to Focus's statements about homosexuality, not about Soulforce, and in fact refers to events several years before the OneNewsNow article
 * 4) The supposed article (better described as a booklet) shows no signs of relating to any Focus/Dobson accusations against Soulforce; it merely relates to statements abut homosexuality. And while there is no publication date on the booklet that I could find, the sources they use finish at 2005, years before the OneNewsNow article (2008)


 * Nat, the hair-splitting about whether Price is a spokesperson for Focus or not is just that--hair-splitting. Unless you have some reason to believe that he went "rogue" and started making public comments on behalf of Focus without authorization, there is no reason to question the validity of the source.  I will modify this to include a direct quote from the article to address your concern about the "wolves in sheep's clothing" language, even though I don't agree with your analysis. 72.224.119.119 (talk) 19:00, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I have again removed this section as both poorly sourced and completely POV. Focus on the Family is neither a reliable or NPOV source for this content. If the criticism is indeed notable there should be no problem finding WP:Reliable sources to support it's inclusion here. BTW, same goes for Soulforce not being an expert or reliable source on The Focus on the Family group. Lean on relaible sources to make the case good and bad. -- Banj e b oi   18:53, 17 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I was the one that added more to the quote. I figured since some people kept demanding a controversy section and accoused this page as being POV toward the group I might as well show the quote isn't really controversy for what the groups have done, but rather just conservative religious groups opposing the ideaology of the group, and saying that what they do goes agianst their god and their religion. Dflav1138 (talk) 00:02, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * No problem. As a general rule "controversy" and "criticism" sections cause problems and the content instead should we sourced and woven into the main text in context. For what you're stating a line that some socially conservative groups oppose them would seem to make sense but really that's not very surprising. If a reliable source sttaes that though it could be added. -- Banj e  b oi   15:42, 18 November 2009 (UTC)
 * A socially conservative source is reliable as to what a socially conservative organization has to say about an issue. Does anyone disagree?  If so, please feel free to visit any Wikipedia pages relating to conservative groups and remove any material that is remotely critical of those organizations that cites to a liberal source.  Thanks.

72.224.119.207 (talk) 21:13, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * In what way is this individual (he is not listed as speaking for Focus, merely working for them) supposed to be important here, particularly important enough for the lede? What you have here is one person of dubious relevancy making unsourced claims. And no, being a socially conservative source does not of itself make it reliable on anything. - Nat Gertler (talk) 21:50, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe that there is some hairsplitting going on. I think it's perfectly obvious that Price is commenting in the article in his official capacity as an employee of Focus.  If he were not, would not Focus have disavowed his comments?  And what do you mean by "unsourced claims?"  Speaking of unsourced claims, there are entire paragraphs in this article that are completely unsourced.  It is curious to me that editors have gotten so focused on this one sentence whenever it has been inserted or re-inserted, while apparently having no problem with the entirely-unsourced paragraph.  Regarding the notability argument, I have a similar response to the one I gave above.  If Focus on the Family is not a notable enough source to be included in an article on Soulforce, then liberal groups that criticize conservative groups or spokespersons should not be considered notable enough to be quoted or cited to on Wikipedia pages dealing with conservative groups.

72.224.119.207 (talk) 16:00, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "If he were not, would not Focus have disavowed his comments?" I don't claim to know whether they would've, and I don't claim to know whether they have. As for "unsourced claims", he's making claims about their "real agenda" - not showing any specific access to the internal efforts of Soulforce. If we were to have someone claim that the real agenda of Focus was to line up all homosexuals and force them to be strawberry pudding, we'd be saying "really? How does he know?" - Nat Gertler (talk) 20:43, 2 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Nat, if Caleb Price were a random individual commenting about Focus' perspective on an issue, you would be right. However, Caleb Price is an employee of Focus commenting on Focus' perspective.  He is clearly referenced in the article as an employee of Focus.  On a different note, I'm unaware of the Wikipedia policy that requires anyone who is quoted in an article to demonstrate "specific access to the internal efforts" of the person or entity s/he is talking about.

72.224.119.207 (talk) 02:32, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * "However, Caleb Price is an employee of Focus commenting on Focus' perspective."? Sez who? The article (as I recall it, the site seems to be down at the moment) doesn't make that claim. I've had articles written quoting me which have mentioned my employer, but what I was saying was not anything about the perspective of my employer. If the quote is in there to reflect the real agenda of Soulforce, we should have more to back it up beyond just some random person saying so. If the quote is in there to reflect the stance of Focus, then there should be some better information to back it up rather than just that someone who is employed by the organization happened to say so. And if the quote is just in there to have someone say something disparaging about Soulforce, then that reason isn't good enough. - Nat Gertler (talk) 03:28, 3 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Nat, I respectfully disagree with your analysis and I believe the quote should remain.01:25, 4 January 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.224.119.207 (talk)

Suggested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved by. (non-admin closure) Jenks24 (talk) 23:27, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Soulforce (organization) → Soulforce – Presently a dab with one item that includes the term "soulforce" but this is the only thing named Soulforce. If necessary, use a hatnote. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:17, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The dab has 5 items, and I would be surprised if there weren't more. I think we need to keep the dab. – Lionel (talk) 08:07, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Since none of those are things actually named "Soulforce" and seem not-that-likely searches, and given that the mentions of Soulforce on Wikipedia are almost all to the organization discussed in this article, the move is appropriate. We could move the disambig page to Soulforce (disambiguation) and hatnote it here. --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:31, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree to both the move and re-naming. Note as well that there is a old proposal to merge Right to Serve Campaign into this entry. I'd support that as well. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 23:02, 25 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Support: A clear case of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. AV3000 (talk) 04:14, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Nixon addition problems
There was a recent addition of Gary Nixon as one of the creators of the group. This has several practical problems. One of them, that it was added in such a way that suddenly all of White's history was listed as belonging to Nixon instead, was easily fixed by reordering. However, that leaves us with two problems:
 * Nixon's involvement in the creation is unsourced.
 * Nixon was described as White's husband. My flipping things around has White described as Nixon's husband. However, the two were not legally married until 2008. If they were not at least socially married by the time of the founding, then this needs to be rephrased to indicate that they later married, rather than imply that they were husbands at the time of the founding. --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:43, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

Reverend as Title
You have restored "Reverend" before the name "Alba Onofrio". Per MOS:CREDENTIAL, Academic and professional titles (such as "Dr." or "Professor"), including honorary ones, should be used in a Wikipedia article only when the subject is widely known by a pseudonym or stage name containing such a title (whether earned or not). As such, I am removing it again. --Nat Gertler (talk) 03:57, 18 March 2021 (UTC)