Talk:South Asian pickle

Repetition
There is repetition of text:

First section

Almost all sorts of fruits vegetables found in south Asia are pickled in this manner, including pumpkins, palm hearts, lotus stems, mango slices, limes and rose petals, along with vegetables more conventionally pickled in the west.

Fruits and vegetables used section

Almost all sorts of fruits vegetables found in South Asia are pickled in this manner, including pumpkins, heart of palm, mango slices, and rose petals, along with vegetables more conventionally pickled in the west

--91.107.86.50 (talk) 19:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Agreed; the whole article includes far too much repetition. --SameerKhan (talk) 09:07, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Merge
Proposal: merge Achar into Indian Pickle. These are the same food. Badagnani 07:48, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Seconded. Nach0king 20:47, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Photographs
I have inserted Image:Indian pickles and cutney.jpg in response to a picture request. If the presence of the sweet mango chutney is inappropriate to this page you may wish to consider replacing it with Image:Lime pickle.jpg or Image:Hot mango pickle.jpg. LittlePete 18:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I've put it at the top of the "Preparation" section, where it doesn't really belong, rather than in the header because it causes ugly layout problems there. LittlePete 00:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

And I see I've mistyped "chutney" as "cutney" in the image name. Will sort. LittlePete 00:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC) Sorted. LittlePete 01:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Cuisine Template
That cuisine template is gigantic, it dwarfs the content of the article, isn' there a way to make that thing smaller somehow?--Christopher Tanner, CCC 03:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Why Benjamins Pickle?
The image used with this article clearly advertises a brand. It's not fare for Wikipedia articles unless the page is about the brand itself. Why to give free adds?Manjithkaini 06:21, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 18:13, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Merge Mixed pickle into this article
this is describing the same thing, and this title is more appropriate for an English wiki.FiveRings (talk) 02:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

What is this pickle?
What is the fruit used to make a North Indian pickle made from a hard, green fruit with tan seeds that look a bit like large lemon seeds? It's not lemon or mango. Badagnani (talk) 21:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * seems like you are referring to Aanwla or gooseberry http://www.google.co.in/search?aq=f&gcx=c&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=aanwla-- Ð ℬig XЯaɣ  15:14, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Tenti dela pickle (टेंटी का अचार)
Need to determine what species the Indian vegetable tenti dela (used in Indian pickles) is. Badagnani (talk) 22:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Is it the same as kerda? What is the species of kerda? Is it Capparis decidua? Badagnani (talk) 06:54, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Spelling
I have noticed that the article uses the word flavor (American spelling). Commonwealth spelling is the most widely used variety of English in India. As per Manual of Style, I propose the spelling to be changed to flavour. Please state if you support or oppose. Joshua Issac (talk) 12:19, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Alcohol
It's lactofermentation, but what is the % in alcohol? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:E35:8A8D:FE80:4C9C:FA0:474F:52B1 (talk) 12:03, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
 * a) it's not lactofermentation, and b) there is no alcohol produced in lactofermentation. --Richardson mcphillips (talk) 14:15, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 20 May 2018

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 05:28, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

South Asian pickles → Achaar – Wouldn't it be simpler? --Comedora (talk) 04:55, 20 May 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. --  Dane talk  05:17, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Oppose no, what language is achaar the word for pickles in? In ictu oculi (talk) 10:45, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Hindi, Nepali, Malayalam, Urdu, Punjab, Sindhi, and numerous others. Search अचार for Hindi and Nepali, അച്ചാർ for Malayalam, and اچار for Urdu, Punjab, and Sindhi. --Comedora (talk) 13:12, 21 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Oppose. A foreign word not sufficiently used naturally in English. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:36, 31 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.


 * I asked for the page to be put back at South Asian pickles. I still oppose moving to "achar" as that is a Hindi word not used in English sources.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:57, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 * South Asia is broad term which includes other countries not in the Indian subcontinent while this page is specifically about pickles made on the subcontinent. None of the current references refer to the pickles as such (they are listed as "Indian" or "desi" pickles) nor have I seen the current title used elsewhere. A better title is needed here (achar is definitely there in the English lexicon [1 ], [2 ], [3 ]). Gotitbro (talk) 10:38, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Gotitbro, OK, but can you verify? These pickles are not found in Sri Lanka or Bangladesh?  This was a while ago, but I did some extensive searching.  Achar is barely present at all in English, and South Asian is a slightly odd term, how it excludes Indonesia for example.  Usage of “South Asian pickles” in English is very strong, can you give an explanation for why the internet is so one sided on that.  Dictionary sources for words are not considered good sources for usage, becuase dictionaries take pride in collecting the all of the most unusual usages.  And more importantly, given the previous failure to rename through RM, a bold move is not ok. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:04, 11 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I was just pointing out that achar is used in English sources [re:""achar" as that is a Hindi word not used in English sources"]. South Asia is not a correct term here, neither have I seen it used in other sources nor does the article include other SA countries BT, AF, MV (and BD, SL currently). A better title is needed here not specifically "achar". (Why would South Asian include Indonesia it refers to South Asia not South-east Asia.) Gotitbro (talk) 11:30, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 6 January 2019

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: consensus not to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 02:40, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

South Asian pickles → Desi pickles – South Asia is a broad term. This item has nothing to do with Afghanistan. We need to change the title to reflect where it is consumed. The overwhelming literature points to "Desi pickles" or at least "Indian pickles". (Highpeaks35 (talk) 00:00, 7 January 2019 (UTC))
 * Oppose. Lack of English language reliable sources using the term to introduce these pickles. Afghanistan is not South Asia.  English language sources call “South Asian Pickles”, and actually the broadness of this term matches the broadness of the variability of the pickles.  There is no such “need”.  The link does not overwhelm. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:09, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Desi is synonymous with South Asia, and the differences are not correlated with the consumption of these pickles. Indian pickles just nationalistically refers to the dominant population of South Asia. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:12, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , I have seen any menu online or any restaurants that calls it "South Asian pickles", it is always referred to as "Desi". Please provide the reference for your claim of "South Asian pickle" supports WP:COMMONNAME. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 00:17, 7 January 2019 (UTC))
 * Correction:, Afghanistan is in South Asia. Look at the map on wiki South Asia article. There is no mention of it in Central Asia or West Asia articles. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 00:18, 7 January 2019 (UTC))
 * Correction #2:, per the article "Desi", it clearly excludes Afghanistan. Only those from the Indian subcontinent. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 00:22, 7 January 2019 (UTC))
 * Menus and recipe books are not what we call “reliable sources”. Books vary.  I have looked at this before and am waiting to see something better.  Can you link some specific uses, where the source describes and introduces the pickles?  —SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:25, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * The article currently has pretty poor references, but #1 is ok, and it does not contain “desi” at all. It’s nit that I love the current title, but the suggestions to change are no better, and fail WP:TITLECHANGES. You’ll impress me with reliable sources. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:30, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * A Historical Dictionary of Indian Food clearly calls it Desi pickles. As that is the name, similar to masala chai, and not "spiced tea". (Highpeaks35 (talk) 02:08, 7 January 2019 (UTC))
 * “clearly”? The page you link does not contain the word “desi”. Also, low volume paper back books on food are not very high on the scale of quality sources. I look at google ngram for the bottom end of reliable, and see that if your book does contain the word “desi”, it has not yet been scanned by google books. That means it is not mainstream or of any significance. Your proposal lacks evidence.  The ngram suggests “Indian pickles” could be a goer, but still you have a lack of rationale for why the current is not ok, unless you mean to seriously make a case based on Afghan pickles. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:55, 7 January 2019 (UTC)


 * Oppose Desi is not a word used in other tertiary sources. "South Asian Pickles" might sound clunky, but at least people know from the title that the page is about pickles in the southern part of Asia.  As for Afghanistan, if it is in South Asia, then there is no reason, why Afghan pickles can't be added to the page. Millions of Afghans live in Pakistan, and many visit India.  I'm sure they must have developed a taste for these pickles, if their own cuisine did not originally have them.  I suspect, though, that they have their own pickles that are similar. I'm hoping there will be sections on Maldivian pickles and Sri Lankan pickles as well.  I should probably take a look at the page, but I haven't yet.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  02:01, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Why put just geography into this? It is a cultural heritage of a people for hundreds or if not more years. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 02:09, 7 January 2019 (UTC))
 * The OED, the definitive dictionary of English defines "South Asian" (adj) as: Of or relating to South Asia (esp. the area now comprising India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh; see etymology) or its inhabitants. Further, it defines desi as:  a. In South Asia: (in early use esp. of cotton) local, indigenous, native. Also in extended use (derogatory): rustic, unsophisticated. b. Outside South Asia: of South Asian origin or descent.  Clearly, you don't mean a.  But b. is not used universally, as South Asian is. Indeed is seems to be used outside South Asia by SA expats. QED  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  06:33, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * you are one of the admins I have come across on food-related articles. Can you give your input into this? (Highpeaks35 (talk) 02:14, 7 January 2019 (UTC))


 * Oppose This page move will be vandalism not in the interest of the encyclopedia. Desi is a extremely colloquial non-encyclopedic phrase used to refer to anything produced in India by Indians. Stop pushing a certain point of view. Regards. — fr&thinsp;+  04:54, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose - I see no need for a title change. Desi is, well... desi lingo, a colloquialism, which is hardly known outside the South Asian community. So, one wouldn't know what the page is about. The absence of Afghanistan on the page makes no big difference. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:51, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Oppose, as there's not much evidence here supporting the proposed title. Given the search results, though, I think a move to Pickles (South Asia) should be considered; pickles are found in a number of global cuisines, and our current system ("Pickles" as a DAB page, "Pickled cucumber" covering most of the material on Western cuisine, this page, and a couple of miscellaneous pages like "Mixed pickles") doesn't really do the topic justice. Vanamonde (talk) 16:03, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Great point, how about Pickles (Indian subcontinent)? As the main issue here is, this type of pickles is solely found in the Indian subcontinent? (Highpeaks35 (talk) 23:09, 7 January 2019 (UTC))
 * What exactly is the source of your distaste for the term "South Asia"? Yes, the article at present does not cover Afghanistan, but neither does it cover Bangladesh or Northeast India; at the same time, it discusses pickles in Mozambique, which have supposedly become indigenized. Until someone actually examines the source material deeply enough to write a comprehensive article about the subject, I would prefer this to be left at the most general title. Vanamonde (talk) 23:37, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , Achaar is part of Assamese cuisine. That is pretty easy to cover. And Bangladesh is one of biggest consumers of achaar. Indian subcontinent is most appropriate. All sources point to it. Or else, Afghan pickles is nothing like pickles from the subcontinent. It’s about accuracy, not political correctness. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 00:18, 8 January 2019 (UTC))
 * The OED 3rd edition, last updated September 2009, defines "achar" as: "In South Asian cookery: a type of pickle or relish made from fruit or vegetables preserved in spiced oil or vinegar." (see http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/1448?redirectedFrom=achar#eid subscription required)   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  14:20, 10 January 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

WP:COMMONNAME
This title South Asian pickles is very clunky and it seems like it is clearly not the most common name. I think it clearly violates WP:COMMONNAME, after reading this wiki guide. I looked at google books, and the name South Asian pickles does not even register much, in comparison to Indian pickles or achaar. Can we agree Pickle (Indian subcontinent), Indian pickles or achaar fits with WP:COMMONNAME? Personally, I love achaar, since it is most common name, and WP:COMMONNAME will attest to it. Also, there are other articles like Acar or Atchara which exists. ,, and others, what do you guys think? We really need to fix this article. Again, I want to have a respectful discussion and get the article and the title fixed up. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 15:29, 12 January 2019 (UTC))
 * Highpeaks, I suggest you drop the stick and move on. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:49, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , I am trying to improve the article, not trying to vandalize it. Is there a wiki committee that can look into this? I just want an outcome where the title of this article is given a good look by a neutral party. This title is not acceptable. Even those advocating it are not gung-ho about it. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 15:55, 12 January 2019 (UTC))
 * I have solved your problem. Now go ahead and improve the article. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:06, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , I am speaking about the title. Not just the lead. Article comes later. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 16:19, 12 January 2019 (UTC))


 * Highpeaks, you're not making much sense; if "South Asian pickles" is a violation of COMMONNAME, then what is compliant with that guideline? Certainly your proposal isn't. The most common term here is just "Pickles", as is obvious from a search for sources. The "South Asia" qualifier is necessary because there's another page at "Pickles". The solution, though I'm not interested enough to formally propose this, is to retitle it "Pickles (South Asia)". Highpeaks didn't like that either, and I can't be bothered to try to fix it. Vanamonde (talk) 16:33, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , "Pickles (Indian subcontinent)" works. I agreed 90% with the format you stated. We are just a little bit away. Indian subcontinent will be clearer, than the broader South Asia. Please let me know, and we can solve this permanently. This is like the Macedonia naming dispute, we are so close, almost there actually. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 16:59, 12 January 2019 (UTC))
 * That doesn't work for me. South Asia is a broader term than "Indian subcontinent". Using the title you suggested is not only changing the title, but changing the scope of the article. I see no evidence, at present, for why that should be done. "Indian subcontinent will be clearer, than the broader South Asia" Why? Vanamonde (talk) 17:22, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Seriously,, "Indian subcontinental pickle?" How many books employ that ridiculous collocation? You are beginning to border on being disruptive by repeatedly ignoring what your interlocutor is saying, and also meandering into random musings (Macedonia etc).   I would like to politely suggest that you close the page move, and work on improving the article, if you are able to.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  17:26, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , you are clearly being dishonest. I never used “Indian subcontinental pickle”, just “Pickles (Indian subcontinent)”. Huge difference. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 17:32, 12 January 2019 (UTC))
 * , to answer your question, the main thing that makes achaar different than any other pickles is the spices local to the Indian subcontinent, not Afghanistan (even Iran or Tibet). Which South Asia covers, in some cases. Spices is the main difference in this pickle, and Indian subcontinent covers those spices. (Again, I appreciate you working on this with me.) (Highpeaks35 (talk) 17:37, 12 January 2019 (UTC))
 * If that is true, you should be able to use reliable sources to improve the article to the point where it clearly demonstrates this difference between pickle in Afghanistan and in the subcontinent. Do that, and you will have a semi-legitimate argument for redefining the scope of this article. I'm not supporting any such rename before that. Vanamonde (talk) 18:28, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , that is fine. I will expand this article using sources related to the Indian subcontinent, not Afghanistan. Give me a month or so. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 18:41, 12 January 2019 (UTC))

What the heck is this then, Mr Honest Guy? Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  19:15, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * When there is a dispute, the page should remain at WP:STATUSQUO. Please read the policy set forth on WP:STATUSQUO. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 19:33, 12 January 2019 (UTC))
 * , I have changed the lead sentence as per WP:BOLDAVOID, which should have been done a long time ago. I don't see why you reverted it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 22:26, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , that lead was the last version before the dispute. And your version is inaccurate; example: Nepal, Sri Lanka, Maldives, and Nepali speaking Bhutanese nationals also eat achaar frequently in the Indian subcontinent. This lead is fine, let me work on this for the next month, unless you want to improve and expand this article yourself. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 22:32, 12 January 2019 (UTC))

I'm sorry you can't decide post facto when the dispute began and then revert the article to the preferred version edited by you. Please note, volunteering to improve the article yourself is no free pass to editing it according to your tastes and biases. (PS Please go back and also change the edits in Naan, where among other things, you have not only removed "South Asia," and therefore, by your own logic, have left Afghanistan in the lurch, considering it is eaten there more than anywhere in India, even in the villages. You have added a Flickr image of a western man's home improvised cheese naan, and captioned it "Paneer naan from India.")  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  22:51, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , I am sick of your dishonesty. Did I add this or this lead in the article? These are diffs and people can see it in history. There needs to be sanctions in Wiki for people like you who are dishonest and show racist-Eurocentric POV. And then go on personal attacks against fellow editors. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 22:58, 12 January 2019 (UTC))
 * But,, you, and only you, put that collocation back in the article, see here, again. You cannot decide yourself that an edit made in November is part of a dispute, especially not when your edit summary opaquely says, "maybe a misunderstanding in talk."   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  01:11, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , Again, read WP:STATUSQUO. It was written by someone not involved in this thread. K3, you and I are not WP:STATUSQUO. As the 3 of us are in dispute, in this thread. That version has South Asian pickle, which I don’t agree with or the removal of Desi pickle, which I don’t agree, but put it since it was done by a non-involved party. Your racist-Eurocentric POV is not acceptable, false allegations, and personal attacks as well. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 01:30, 13 January 2019 (UTC))
 * Also,, I expect an apology from you for your statement above. Stating I wrote the current lead, which I did not. You should apologize for your dishonesty and false attack. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 01:33, 13 January 2019 (UTC))

Please take your gripe to the WP forum of your choosing. Please be aware that there is also something called Status quo stonewalling. You are not engaging anyone here on the talk page, simply reverting to some fantasized "previous version" with mysteriously laconic edit summaries. Fowler&amp;fowler «Talk»  02:03, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , don't deflect. You clearly stated that the lead was my doing, and the diffs proved otherwise. Now you are trying to deflect from your dishonesty. I will highly recommend you apologize for your dishonest, unprofessionalism and personal attacks. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 03:09, 13 January 2019 (UTC))
 * This talk page exists for the sole purpose of bringing improvements to the content of the page. Please pursue your allegations about my behavior at the Wikipedia forum of your choosing.  Best regards,  Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  03:42, 13 January 2019 (UTC)

, this discussion is going quite out of hand. As far as I can see there is no "dispute". You have filed a move request, which has found no support. I made an edit based on policy, WP:BOLDAVOID, which you reverted claiming there is a "dispute". I accept that you were going to STATUSQUO, and won't hold that against you. But, you haven't explained what "dispute" there supposedly is. Without a dispute, STATUSQUO doesn't apply.

You have received an ARBIPA notification within the last 12 months. Please take care not to cross the line. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:21, 13 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , That notification was given on a false allegation. As can be withnessed by your apology here. (Highpeaks35 (talk) 14:06, 13 January 2019 (UTC))
 * I don't agree to changing it to "Achar" as it is common only in North Indian languages. In Tamil and Telegu, it is called oorugai, and is called uppinkai in Kannada. I don't know about Tulu and North-Eastern cuisines though. But what I can say is that it is commonly understood as pickles in English. However, in English speaking world, pickles is understood as vegetables preserved in brine or vinegar without a thick spiced up gravy. So, I believe the current name as South Asian pickles is good enough. An alternate could be Indian pickle or pickles (Indian cuisine) rams81 (talk) 21:02, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Gundruk Pickel
The authentic Gundruk pickel is available in Nepal is also originated from Nepal and is eaten widely. It is made up of dry spinach, veg leaves etc added with tasty peppers, salts, oil and special akabare khursani chilly Prashantsubedii (talk) 13:31, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Merger proposal of Avakaya into this article
I propose to merge Avakaya into South Asian pickle (this article). I think that the content in the Avakaya article can easily be explained in the context of South Asian pickle, especially considering it is merely a specific type of South Asian pickle (mango pickle) whose name is merely in the Telugu language. Seeing as there's no reason we should be having a different article for each of the types of pickles each enumerated in the various languages of India, I think this merger makes sense. As for size, the Avakaya article is quite short, and this article could use the increase in detail / specifics that would be gained from merging that article. Getsnoopy (talk) 05:48, 13 April 2021 (UTC)
 * Support, sensible and appears to be a subtype.Free1Soul (talk) 15:36, 17 April 2021 (UTC) sock
 * Support, makes sense, or another article this can be merged to is Mango_pickle. Muzirian (talk 14:55, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Agree that Mango pickle is a more specific and hence better target. Klbrain (talk) 10:26, 19 October 2022 (UTC)


 * This merge is complete. Joyous! | Talk 00:59, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Fermented
Hi,

It makes no sense that this would historically not be fermented, and many sources refer to it as such:

According to Collingham, as the British established dominion over India, among the many Indian culinary features that cooks back in Old Blighty eagerly adopted was that of Indian pickles. “Indians very rarely used vinegar, and their pickles were made by layering vegetables or fruits in jars with oil or water. The mixture was flavoured with salt and spices and the jars were set in the hot sun where they were left to ferment. Lacking the intense heat of the Indian sun, British cooks resorted to vinegar to carry out the pickling process. Godal (talk) 09:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Introduction to Community Economic and Social Development II
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