Talk:South Buffalo, Buffalo

Comment
This page is in Dire need of editing! NPOV ahoy! -- SAB

Recent changes, disruption
It hasn't quite risen to the level of edit warring, but the number and frequency of back-and-forth changes to the article has become confusing and disruptive. Most recently was a series of eight consecutive reversions by IP editor 80.195.95.86, which appeared to fix some things but also to remove helpful edits that I and others had made; none of the eight reversions was accompanied by anything other than the default edit summary. 80.195.95.86: would you please explain your reasoning? Otherwise, the article will need to be semi-protected. I'd also be grateful for comments from other recent editors, such as SouthBuffaloRules and Badkneesbear.

The article has issues, including some "peacock" wording and unverified (possibly unverifiable) claims and also needs a thorough copyedit. [The current version]'s lead paragraph doesn't say what a lead paragraph needs to say. The purpose of the article isn't to promote South Buffalo but rather to describe it describe it neutrally in a way that can be verified using reliable sources. I tagged one or two sentences that appeared especially problematic, but the tag kept disappearing in a flurry of edits, many of which seem to be simple reversions even though some are not labeled as such. I'd like to move forward with a general copyedit and either tag or remove the offending statements but am afraid of inadvertently sparking some sort of full-blown edit war. Let's figure out here on the talk page what's going on. I am contacting the three aforementioned editors and inviting them to participate in this discussion. Rivertorch (talk) 14:48, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Some writers do appear to desire to ignore the reality of the strong presence of many other nationalities in this neighborhood. I have taken the time to review property ownership records for South Buffalo streets and the City Directory. It is clear that many nationalities comprise this geographic area. It would seem to lack cultural diversity to pretend that such strong numbers of German, Italian and Polish heritage was not present for many decades.


 * SouthBuffaloRules —Preceding unsigned comment added by SouthBuffaloRules (talk • contribs) 20:28, 10 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, the review of records you conducted constitutes original research, which is prohibited by one of the core policies of Wikipedia, the standard here being not the "reality" you describe but verifiability. I see that Badkneesbear has edited the article again in the meantime without contributing to this discussion, which I notified them about. The two of you appear to be heading for an edit war and I am caught in the middle; my edits are being reverted too. Please stop. I want to go ahead with a major copyedit plus whatever else is necessary to flag or remove unverified material. If you two continue down this path, I will request full protection of the article. In addition to the policies I've linked above, you might find it helpful to review the guideline dealing with conflict of interest and possibly an informative essay about single-purpose accounts. Thanks very much for your cooperation. Rivertorch (talk) 21:30, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but there is no verification of any valid records that the neighborhood is comprised or dominated by one ethnic group. If your debate wars continue, I will take all necessary action to have this entire article removed. You seem quite insensitive to others in the community and merely desire to promote your own opinions. The article in general lacks encyclopedia integrity and sounds more like a private webpage to impose your own values. The article is meant to provide general information and much of the material in this article has no place in this venue of information. Oddly, you seem to only disagree with those who hold a different view than you and do not seem to want to work with others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Badkneesbear (talk • contribs) 23:29, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

SouthBuffaloRules:

My apologies for placing my entry at the top; this was an error on my part.

I'm glad people are talking! It would seem that Badkneesbear has a problem with what he/she believes to be prejudicial (which is similar to my own thoughts). Would it be beneficial to just remove all ethnic reference in the opening paragraph? The mention of South Buffalo having a high concentration of Irish people is already mentioned in the article (further down). The article also mentions other ethnic groups (i.e. Italian Festival). Nobody has had a problem with references to ethnic groups in the article. I think it is just that the opening page makes a bold statement that would make a reader believe that it is stricly an Irish community.

Rivertorch, you wanted to talk to others. Are you willing to work with others? This is an opportunity to solve this problem. Are you looking to "build a bridge" or "build a wall?" High handed threats aren't going to solve a problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SouthBuffaloRules (talk • contribs) 00:24, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * SouthBuffaloRules, I'm sorry if what I wrote sounded either high-handed or threatening. Please understand that this is one of literally thousands of content disputes currently occurring on Wikipedia. (The fiercest ones often have something to do with different ethnic groups. This is predictable when it comes to articles on the Balkans or Kashmir, but South Buffalo? Gimme a break!) Edit warring is always disruptive to the process of building the encyclopedia wherever it happens, and its participants have to call a ceasefire before anything productive can happen with any article. When the edit warring stops, I would very much like to work collaboratively with you and anyone else to improve the article. If it doesn't stop (and it shows no sign of stopping), then action is required to stop it. Since the participants in this particular content dispute appear to be two new editors and an unregistered editor whose identity cannot be immediately determined, I decided to take the time to provide some larger context about applicable policies as well as mention the option of protecting the article. The policies I spoke of are long-established ones for which there is clear consensus. They apply equally to everyone, and the major ones dealing with original research and verifiability really aren't negotiable except perhaps in the rarest circumstances. If you're okay with following policy, I'd be more than happy to work with you. Building walls is neither my intention nor a particular talent of mine. (Btw, yes, I think removing mention of ethnicity from the lead might be a viable option and merits discussion.)


 * Badkneesbear, because you didn't indent your comments, it's unclear whose comments you're responding to. I do agree with much of what you say, particularly about the inappropriateness of certain content. I had tagged one example of such content yesterday, and you removed it (amid making other changes). If you will stop simply reverting, it would be possible to semi-protect the article, which would take IP editor 80.195.95.86 out of the equation and hopefully allow you and SouthBuffaloRules to find a solution to the dispute here on the talk page without playing tug-of-war with the article itself. I'd be glad to mediate informally, although I should say up front that my time online may be very limited (and I have a few hundred other articles on my watchlist :-p ) I'm not here to take anyone's side in the dispute, and I have no dog in the race: my purpose is simply to clean up the article and make sure it conforms to policy.


 * Both of you: the way to automatically add your signature when you post to a talk page is by typing four tildes (i.e., ~ ) at the end of your post. Help:Talk page has other tips, tricks, and shortcuts. Rivertorch (talk) 05:51, 11 April 2010 (UTC) Update: Following another reversion by IP 80.195.95.86, I have requested semi-protection for the article. Rivertorch (talk) 06:22, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

The article is now fully protected due to the edit warring. Please work out the issues. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 06:32, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Badknees and I have not been at war! If the unidentified person would stop attempting to push that this is an Irish community and the rest of the people don't exist, I don't think there would be a problem (that sounds pretty reasonable). Honestly, I don't think that nationality really needs to be associated with the article. Badkees, I'd recommend giving until the 18th to see how the article looks cleaned up. Your points on the article are well taken and it sure seems that you care enough about the article by your interest. This will never resolve unless we all work together and try to appreciate each others point. SouthBuffaloRules (talk) 11:21, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Now, point #2 - I tried the four tildes, but when I did that the majority of my comments didn't print on the talk page and what did was in a blue lined box. SouthBuffaloRules —Preceding unsigned comment added by SouthBuffaloRules (talk • contribs) 11:28, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Your tilde use was coincidental, and your signature worked fine. I fixed the formatting, which happened because you began your paragraph with one or more spaces. To indent a comment, type a colon as the very first character of a line; to indent more, type two colons, etc. Help:Talk page for details.


 * Let's not worry about who was at war with whom—the article is protected and no one got blocked, which is a fairly happy solution. Over the next week, I'll bet we can agree on some neutral wording and put a draft together here on the talk page. Rivertorch (talk) 15:30, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * It would help if Badknees and SouthBuffaloRules provide comments to their edits to explain why they were made. It would help even more if they provided references in the article. It is my experience that South Buffalo is characteristically Irish.  There is nothing wrong in saying so in the article if it is true.  So I would like to see evidence to the contrary if it is not true. Roesser (talk) 23:19, 11 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Do you know of a reliable source stating that South Buffalo is "characteristically Irish"? Remember that the standard here isn't truth but verifiability. I have to say that phrase strikes me as vague and potentially misleading, though. Rivertorch (talk) 04:29, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I see there is a talk page...here goes some input. Having lived in South Buffalo and attended St. John's School - I never knew of it to be "characteristically Irish." Our parish in South Buffalo was German and we spoke German. My husband attended St. Agatha's School which was Italian and they spoke Italian for many years. South Buffalo is not a neighborhood - it's a section of Buffalo which has a number of neighborhoods within it. My great grandfather was on of the first settlers when there were about 80 families - he was German. He always talked about the early floods in South Buffalo. I know St. Buffalo was on the flood map until just a few years ago. I know I read about the floods in one of the local history books. The floods influenced how many of the older buildings were built with high steps to the main floor. South Buffalo was founded on an Indian Reservation and the roots of the land have a fascinating history. I read a book about 10 years ago that gave a wealth of history on the history of South Buffalo. Cazenvovia Park is in South Buffalo and there is another park which I think is an Indian burial ground. Let me see if I can pull that history up - if anyone things this might be important. The biggest institution in South Buffalo is Mercy Hospital, but, the article doesn't mention it. And why is there so much detail about things like the Catholic School's? Articles that I've read about a "geographic location" don't usually give that much detail on points referenced in the article. This is new to me, but, I'd help if anyone needs it. I'm know great editor, but, I'd do some leg work with research.Swisher1 (talk) 12:43, 12 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for offering to help! It would be great if you could find that book again (or other sources). Any of you in or near the Buffalo area should be able to find all sorts of helpful sources at the public library. (I am not in that area and am further hampered by a slow Internet connection.) Rivertorch (talk) 13:41, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

In general
Before starting the nitty-gritty process of proposing actual text, here are some general thoughts about content: Unless someone else goes first (and please feel free), I plan to go section by section and draft proposed text here beginning today or tomorrow. Rivertorch (talk) 14:08, 12 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Aside from defining South Buffalo (saying what and where it is), the lead section should summarize the main points of the article. For this reason, it may be helpful to revise the lead last, after the rest of the article has been revised.
 * Ethnicity is a valid topic to discuss in the article, but (1) any claims must be well sourced and (2) there should be something especially significant to the claims vis-a-vis South Buffalo (i.e., every city/region/community has an ethnic makeup—so what?). Otherwise, the topic really isn't important enough, except for maybe the briefest of passing mentions.
 * Items of strictly local interest should be avoided (including local celebrities). One way to draw to line is to check if the person, place or event has a Wikipedia article. If so, it probably should be mentioned. If not, we can consider other criteria (e.g., has the subject received mainstream press coverage outside the Buffalo area).
 * Even if it means paring the article down to little more than a stub, it's better to omit rather than include statements that we don't have reliable sources to back up. There's absolutely no rush: if the sources exist, they'll still exist next month and next year.

Section: Neighborhoods & schools
Current text: To many, the neighborhoods of South Buffalo are defined by the particular main street to which the side street in which they lived off of was located. Seneca Street, South Park and Abbott Road are the three major streets in this section of Buffalo. For many Roman Catholics, the neighborhoods within South Buffalo are often identified by the parishes of the Catholic Churches in the area. The parishes, St. Ambrose, Holy Family, St. Agatha, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Martin, St. Teresa and St. John the Evangelist stretch from the lake front to the West Seneca border south of the Buffalo River to the north and Bailey Ave. to the west.

South Buffalo has various educational opportunities to offer, from Public Elementary and High Schools, to Elementary Charter Schools and even Catholic Elementary and High Schools. Also, there is the presence of Trocaire College.

Recently, the South Buffalo Catholic Schools have consolidated to form one school, which is called South Buffalo Catholic School. This school has three campuses: Trinity Catholic Academy located at St. Teresa's Parish, Notre Dame Academy located at St. Martin's Parish and Ambrose Catholic Academy located at St. Ambrose Parish. These schools continue to struggle financially because of the high cost associated with operating private education. The 2008-2009 school year closed with a $340,000.00 operating deficit. The schools continue to see a decrease in enrollment, as families can no longer afford the high tuition expense in such a poor economy. Also, the area continues to see a drop in church attendance which has caused many parishes to close. The City of Buffalo has been ranked by the U.S. Census Bureau as the third poorest city in the nation. The latest census figures also shows a steady decrease in the population of Buffalo and its surrounding suburbs.

The Public Schools of South Buffalo continue to flourish in population. Public Schools in South Buffalo include Hillary Park Academy, Southside Elementary, Lorraine Academy and many charter schools. The City of Buffalo has launched a program which has invested millions of dollars into the renovation of each of their schools. South Park High School saw over 40 million dollars put into their building which included the rebuilding of an entire wing of the school. Hillary Park Academy just completed their renovation and Southside Elementary is undergoing a renovation in the 2009-2010 year.

South Park High School is the neighborhood's only public secondary school. The two remaining high schools in South Buffalo are Bishop Timon - St. Jude High School for boys and Mount Mercy Academy for girls.

Comments: The section starts out with a phrase that fits the definition of weasel words: "to many". I understand that it's probably quite true, but for our purposes it's vague and needs attribution of some kind. Surely someone can find a book or web page that will suffice to link main streets to neighborhoods. The section continues with the phrase "for many Roman Catholics" and offers church parishes as an alternate way to define neighborhoods, which raises the question: does the unspecified "many" in the first sentence refer primarily to non-Catholics? The implication is there, anyway. I wonder whether something like this might not work better: "The neighborhoods of South Buffalo often are defined either by proximity to certain thoroughfares—notably Seneca Street, South Park and Abbott Road—or by the Catholic parishes of St. Ambrose, Holy Family, St. Agatha, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Martin, St. Teresa and St. John the Evangelist." The part about the parish borders may be problematic because it's not clear whether they correspond with the general definition of where South Buffalo begins and ends. I have removed the internal links since they correspond to articles on historical figures and not parishes.

The next paragraph has multiple issues. Rather than enumerating each of them, I propose replacing the wording with something like this: "South Buffalo contains a variety of public, private, and charter schools, as well as the two-year Trocaire College." It's simple and neutral, anyway. If all the private schools are Catholic ones, that might be specified.

The third paragraph is a little weird. First, it seems to contradict the previous paragraph (as it stands now, not my proposed replacement above), which mentioned multiple Catholic schools, by saying there's now only one. That should be easy enough to verify. Somebody with a nice fast modem want to find the link? Assuming we do have a source for that, let's find another for the part about the financial woes of the Catholic schools. To be continued... Rivertorch (talk) 06:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC) And continuing... There are also a couple of sentences in the third paragraph that suggest cause-and-effect relationships; unless there's no other conceivable explanation, such things should always be sourced. As for the last two sentences, I'm a little unsure about them because they're talking about the city or metro area as a whole and not South Buffalo specifically. Even if we source them, applying that data to South Buffalo seems like synthesis, which is a big no-no around here. Also, by definition, "the latest census figures" (my emphasis) cannot show a "steady decrease" (my emphasis again); that would require the figures of multiple censuses.

Fourth paragraph. Schools don't "continue to flourish in population" because they don't have population; they have enrollment. Unless there's something really significant about the enrollment of public schools in South Buffalo, I'd suggest omitting this claim entirely, since it may be very hard to source without original research. There's no reason to selectively mention schools by name here, it seems to me. That the city has implemented a renovation scheme that affects South Buffalo schools is noteworthy (and needs a source) and the examples of individual schools in this sentence, unlike in the previous one, seem justifiable.

Other than some minor copyediting issues, the final paragraph of the section seems acceptable. I have a question, though: are there no middle or intermediate schools between elementary and high? Is this a Buffalo thing? A New York State thing? Should that be explained or not?

And that's my take on the Neighborhoods & schools section. I'm not sure the two topics necessarily belong together. "Neighborhoods" could stand alone as a short section and "Schools" could be its own section—it's a thought, anyway. Rivertorch (talk) 13:54, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I will try tp pull some info. together that might help with this section. I am Catholic, but, I don't think that the neighborhoods are really defined by the Catholic parishes. The various signs say things like: "Welcome to Seneca St. Neighborhood - Downtown South Buffalo." Since there are so many non-Catholic churches, I think that might be misleading and subjective. I like your wording on the schools because I think that previously it sounded like a laundry list and I did notice some other schools were missing. There are public, private non-Catholic and Catholic. Rivertorch, the schools in South Bflo. are pretty much just elementary and secondary and then the college. Our suburbs have middle schools, but not here. As for the third paragraph, I think again we're off on a tangent. Enrollments have more to do with the schools than So. Bflo. itself. I don't think all the explaination is necessary. Most of the schools don't seem to have any link that I could find, except for the college and Timon and Mercy. On the fourth paragraph, I agree with you entirely. Now another point is that Mercy Hospital is located in So. Bflo. Since it is the largest business/institution - should it be mentioned? Also, should we have a link to its webpage? Good work! I'll do some leg work by the end of the week. Any input from So Blo Rules or Bad Knees would be helpful. Or was it just your thing about nationalities in the first paragraph?Swisher1 (talk) 23:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your input, Swisher. Based on what you said, I guess we'd definitely want to see reliable sources re parishes defining neighborhoods; otherwise it should go. Agree with you about the enrollments. Yes, if the hospital is the largest employer, it deserves a mention. Let me think about the link . . . too tired at moment for anything more substantive. I hope to tackle the next section tomorrow (today GMT). Rivertorch (talk) 04:42, 14 April 2010 (UTC) Added comment: No, there's no reason for an external link to the hospital's site. It can be redlinked until its own article is created.Rivertorch (talk) 09:33, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Section: Society
Current text: South Buffalo [had] one of the largest concentrations of Irish Americans west of the Hudson River outside of Chicago, many of whom settled in Buffalo after the completion of the Erie Canal, as well as the coming of the railroads and the industrial revolution later in the nineteenth century. Nevertheless, unlike many other American cities with large Irish-American populations, Buffalo, New York's southside Irish came to the USA relatively late when comparatively speaking. By far the largest concentrations came from the Irish Counties of Clare, Cork, Mayo and Wexford. Indeed, most were post-famine arrivals who were recruited to work the burgeoning steel mills, petroleum refineries, foundries, flour mills, automobile factories, and machine shops sprouting up in this highly industrialized city. Many more of South Buffalo's Irish would wind up working in the ranks of the protective services for the Buffalo Police Department and Buffalo Fire Department. Others found jobs in the various unionized Building Trades, such as in the labor unions representing the Carpenters, Bricklayers, Iron Workers, and Operating Engineers.

Youth ice hockey is huge in South Buffalo. The Cazenovia Chiefs hockey program provides recreation for hundreds of children in the neighborhood. This program has produced such hockey talents as Patrick Kane, Tim Kennedy, Peter Ratchuk, and Mike Ratchuk.

The neighborhood plays host to the Goin' South Irish Feis every year, an event that is extremely popular among young people. It features food, fireworks, and live music, including Jackdaw, a neighborhood favorite act. Because South Buffalo also has a number of Italian Americans, it hosts an Italian Festival each summer. Another popular event which takes place is the annual Seneca Street Car Show, which draws many people into South Buffalo.

With its Irish roots there are also a few traditional Irish Dance Academies in the neighborhood area of South Buffalo, such as O'Sullivan Academy, Rince Na Tiarna, Woodgate-Shamrock, and Clann Na Cara.

A number of newspapers, publications and websites keep residents up-to-date with news, events and announcements including The South Buffalo News print publication put out by the Front Page Group and available at local stores, The Greater South Buffalo Chamber of Commerce newsletter that is sent out regularly to members and by request and the website South Buffalo & Southtowns Online news ( http://www.SouthBuffaloOnline.com ).

Comments: For starters, the first paragraph of this section doesn't seem to belong here. It deals with the history of South Buffalo, and its connection to the rest of the section is tenuous at best. However, it needs some work wherever it ends up, so here goes. In the first sentence, the footnote is in an odd place. If the source supports that it is (or was) one of the largest concentrations west of the Hudson outside of Chicago, then the footnote should be after that statement. If anybody here has access to that book or wants to check if Google Books has the content online, great; a page number would be helpful. (As to whether it's still true, perhaps the source mentions a year?) The next sentence has grammatical problems. I think it could be combined with the remainder of the paragraph in a more condensed form, like this: "Buffalo's southside Irish arrived later than Irish immigrants in other major U.S. cities. [Is this true? A ref would be nice.] Most were post-famine arrivals who were recruited to work the burgeoning steel mills, petroleum refineries, foundries, flour mills, automobile factories, and machine shops sprouting up in this highly industrialized city. Many wound up working for the police and fire departments, while others found jobs in the various unionized building trades, such as carpenters, bricklayers, iron workers, and operating engineers."

Next, we have the abrupt transition to youth ice hockey. I would suggest rolling it all into one sentence:"South Buffalo's Cazenovia Chiefs youth hockey program, which provides recreation for children, has produced several professional players, including Patrick Kane, Tim Kennedy, Peter Ratchuk, and Mike Ratchuk."

The next paragraph refers to the "neighborhood". Which one? The article already mentions multiple neighborhoods in South Buffalo. Other problems can be addressed by removing modifiers such as "popular" and "favorite" and removing the cause-and-effect statement about the Italian Festival.

Next paragraph, I don't know whether the existence of traditional Irish dance academies is worth mentioning, but I see no good reason to mention any of them by name unless any of them meets notability guidelines for an article of its own. Free advertising shouldn't be a feature of the article.

The last paragraph seems superfluous. Its two links are already there in the External links section, and that ought to be enough.

Individually, this section's text is pretty easy to fix. As a whole, however, it doesn't hang together coherently. The structure of the article needs to be reconsidered. Rivertorch (talk) 18:54, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Section: Geography
Current text: Also within the area are two parks designed by Frederick Law Olmsted. These parks, Cazenovia and South Park, are connected by wide elm-lined streets. McKinley Parkway and Red Jacket Parkway are two of the remaining parkways that created a greenway throughout the city in the early 1900s.

Cazenovia Park is the larger of the two parks. It contains two baseball and two softball diamonds. The baseball diamonds and one softball diamond reside in an area aptly referred to as the "Bowl". The second softball diamond is situated a little further away and called the "Hidden Diamond". The park also contains a nine hole golf course, a wading pool, playground, basketball & tennis courts, three soccer fields, as well as a casino, typical of the era when the park was designed. The road running through the park was named after South Park High School Alumni Warren Spahn in 2004.

South Park is located along the border of Lackawanna. It also contains a nine hole golf course, as well as two softball diamonds. The Buffalo and Erie County Botanical Gardens is also in the park. It is a favorite summer time habitat for Canada geese..

Hillery Playground, located in the Seneca Street neighborhood, is a main recreational area for the residents of the Seneca Street area of South Buffalo.

The South Buffalo area is serviced by the Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority buses on Seneca St. (No. 15), Abbott Rd. (No. 14), McKinley Pkwy. (No. 19) and South Park Ave. (No. 16).

Comments:

Even more than the others, this section is crying out to be renamed.

First paragraph: "Also within the area..." Another non sequitur. Grrr. Olmsted was a major figure. It would be nice to find some info about the topography and layout of these parks. In the meantime, this section mostly needs copyediting and some judicious trimming of adjectives. WP articles don't need to list bus routes, either; that runs afoul of WP:ISNOT and may change frequently enough to make any accuracy impossible to maintain. Enough said. Onward. I guess I'll deal with the last section tomorrow, rearrange things a bit, rewrite the lede, and try to patch it all together into something approaching coherent. Other than Swisher1's helpful observations and kind offer to help, this seems to be turning into a solo endeavor. I would be glad if the three editors who were so heavily involved in the flurry of changes last week would offer some input on my comments and proposed revisions. Rivertorch (talk) 04:12, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Section: Past & present
Current text: During the 1940s and 1950s swimming was a favorite summer pastime at the two outdoor swimming pools in Cazenovia Park. The two pools have since been removed. Fishing in Cazenovia Creek was an alternative summertime activity. In the winter, a lagoon off of the creek provided ice skating, but this has also been removed.

A game called Chestnuts was a popular activity during this time period in South Buffalo. Horse chestnuts would be suspended from a string, usually a shoelace, run through a hole drilled in the center. Participants would take turns holding their suspended chestnut, while their opponent would snap their chestnut against it. When either chestnut cracked the surviving chestnut would be crowned a kinger. Kingships would accumulate from game to game. Any accumulated kingships of a defeated chestnut would be transferred to the victor.

Community picnics at Cazenovia Park and in neighboring Crystal Beach amusement park, located in Crystal Beach, Ontario where provided annually by the Tri-Abbot Southpark Businessmen's Association.

Baseball was and still remains another dominant sport in the area. In the past there wasn’t an established little league, but games would be played spontaneously almost anywhere, including playground ball fields, vacant lots and even the street. Teams would be formed by alternate selection until everyone present was chosen by one team or the other. The team captain to make the first choice was determined by tossing a bat with the handle up to one captain, who would grab it in one hand. Each captain would alternately place a hand on the top of the others hand until there was no more room on the bat. The last hand determined the first choice.

Two neighborhood movie houses, the Capitol and Shea's Seneca shows, provided entertainment at very reasonable prices. Saturday matinees where 14¢ for the Capitol and 20¢ for the Seneca.

Spoonley The Trainman on Choate was a major attraction in South Buffalo. This toy train shop, owned and operated by Chester Spoonley, drew people from all over western New York to experience the fascinating layouts featuring Lionel and American Flyer trains and accessories.

Although the two steel companies, Bethlehem and Republic, provided employment for a majority of South Buffalo residents during this time, they were also a major source of air pollution. The blast furnaces and open hearth furnaces generated huge quantities of airborne particulates that coated every surface inside and outside of homes and buildings. This fact was not fully appreciated by the residents until the steel mills shut down and suddenly surfaces remained relatively clean.

The South Buffalo area suffered in the late 1970s and early 1980s due to the closing of the majority of steel mills, machine shops, automobile factories, oil refineries and flour milling plants which were either within or bordering the community. In search of jobs many of the residents were forced to leave Western New York and seek employment out of state. The numerous independent small shops which once lined Seneca Street and South Park Avenue suffered most from the economic downturn caused by the many plant closures. What was once the South Buffalo neighborhood's main retail area became a collection of boarded-up store fronts hard pressed for cash flow. Suffering less were the more middle-class neighborhoods of South Buffalo which border McKinley Parkway, Abbott Road, and Potter Road.

The annual South Buffalo St. Patrick's Day Parade was revived some 20 years ago and serves as a more traditional celebration over the City of Buffalo's main St. Patrick's Day Parade held usually the following day in Buffalo's city center on Delaware Avenue. The Grand Marshal's of this less formal event have represented a gammit from some South Buffalo Irish-American families.

Each year, starting in 2004, the Moe Talty-Franz walk for breast cancer awareness and fund raising is conducted in Cazenovia Park. Hundreds of people come together to support this worthy event.

Another new festival tradition is the South Buffalo Business Expo and Irish Festival, usually held the first weekend of September in Cazenovia Park. A day long event featuring local businesses, services, food, dance and music draws residents from all over.

Famous natives include Tim Russert from NBC's Meet the Press., Shawn P Greene from FRN's The Spice Rack Show, Michael Setlock, a Buffalo DJ for Kiss 98.5 in the 1990s, and Dan Neaverth, a Buffalo radio broadcaster in the 1950s, 60s and 70s, who was inducted into Buffalo Broadcasting Hall of Fame in 2000. Dan attended Timon H.S. in South Buffalo. Another life long South Buffalo resident, Bishop Timon High School graduate and fellow radio disc jockey is WGRF 97 Rock's Slick Tom Tiberi at slicktom.com.

Comments: This last section is a hodgepodge of disparate topics. Much of it is presented in the form of a rambling stroll down memory lane. Such reminiscences are often interesting but they're original research. Even if they could somehow be sourced, they're really not appropriate content for an encyclopedia article. (They would be nice for a commemorative web site or blog or magazine article or printed memoir.) Except for the exact locale, the activities described were commonplace in lots of neighborhoods and lots of cities; there's nothing exceptionally South Buffalo about them. So I think the first five paragraphs should go.

The sixth paragraph (Spoonley the Trainman) is questionable. Lots of cities had cool toy train shops. Was this shop famous ouside the region? The text implies otherwise, and the source appears to be a self-published book—a red flag at the best of times.

The steel mills surely deserve mention, but what we have here is anecdote and vagueness. During what years did they operate? Just how many residents did they employ? Were the health effects of those airborne particulates on local residents ever studied? This should all be sourceable. Until that happens, I'd suggest just a brief mention of the mills. Likewise, the disappearance of all those industrial jobs is important, but it reads like one person's recollection and not an encyclopedia article. How many jobs or what percentage of jobs were lost? How many retail businesses closed? The wording about some neighborhoods suffering less than others is almost certainly true, although it's sloppily worded, but it sounds like original research to me.

St. Paddy's Day paragraph. "Some 20 years ago" is unacceptably vague. How is South Buffalo's parade "more traditional"? Copyediting needed. Sourcing would be great.

Moe Talty-Franz paragraph. Copyediting needed. We can't say it's "worthy".

Expo and Festival paragraph. It can't be both "new" and a "tradition", and it "draws residents from all over"—all over where?

Last paragraph. The only famous native in the current version who unquestionably belongs is Russert. (There was a politician listed last week. I cleaned up that mention only to see my fix get reverted.) I'd suggest the sole criterion here should be whether they have a WP article.

To sum up, fixing the content of this section is more a matter of removing than improving. What's left should probably be merged elsewhere. My next step is to see what's left and try to fit the pieces together and rewrite the lede. I've also begun to look for reliable sources. They're out there.

Page protection is expiring, and I sincerely hope things stay quiet. Rivertorch (talk) 09:13, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Rivertorch, I went to the library and to some institutions that had their own private archives. Much of the material is unable to be taken out because it's in the Rare Book Room, so I copied a great deal. I really had to dig! Many of the materials are in books related to churches, schools or institutions that were formed in the area. What type of material is acceptable to use? I'm not a great editor, so I don't want to screw up anything. You've done a great job! I'd ask everyone to hold up on any changes until each of you get a chance to see the end product. Let's make this something that is worthy of being on here.Swisher1 (talk) 03:16, 19 April 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes. Having gone this far, we may as try to make a good job of it. I've been working offline yesterday/today on a draft but keep getting sidetracked looking up sources as I go along (and, to be honest, sidetracked by recurrent sneezing fits and antihistimine-fueled drowsy spells—the joys of allergy season) . Google Books is mostly an exercise in frustration. Found a few other sources but nothing great so far. Believe me, I'm very grateful for anything you've found. Local print sources are invaluable. The relevant guidelines are WP:RS and WP:CITE but don't let them daunt you. In many cases, a less than ideal source is better than no source at all. The main things is that whatever you've found should be allowed to "speak for itself" as much as possible instead of being interpreted by us editors; as long as it's credible and doesn't push the article too far toward any particular point of view, it should be okay. And feel free to screw up anything you like—it can all be fixed down the road.


 * Realistically, any editor is entitled to go to work on the article itself while things progress at snail's pace on the talk page. As long as there's no more disruptive back-and-forth reverting, it really doesn't matter. It probably will be at least another day before I have something I'm ready to post here. Anything you want to share in the way of sources or wording in the meantime, please do. Rivertorch (talk) 08:35, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Citation needed tags
User Sportslogo has inserted many "citation needed" tags. I'll attempt to fulfill some of them, but others refer to passages that are already cited. (e.g., Chestnuts, Spoonley the trainman, steel companies, Moe Talty Franz walk, and famous natives. Roesser (talk) 22:56, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Create a new page for Kaisertown
Kaisertown is a distinct and separate neighborhood from South Buffalo, and should have its own page. Clinton St. is not a part of South Buffalo, and nobody from either neighborhood would disagree. As mentioned above, that there is more than one neighborhood in South Buffalo mentioned...South Buffalo is only one neighborhood. Yes, there are certain distinctions made, such as street or parish, but they do not imply a separate neighborhood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.136.229.193 (talk) 23:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

South Buffalo is a geographic section of the city. It is comprised of several neighborhoods, including Kaisertown. It is not one neighborhood. Within the South Buffalo proper, there are several neighborhoods. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.110.1.155 (talk) 06:08, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

What a mess!
Is this a neighbourhood fan site or an encyclopaedia article? Needs a thorough cleanup, removal of trivia, insertion of encyclopeadic information and improved referencing. Jezhotwells (talk) 08:42, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

New Page Created for South Buffalo/Southside
A new page was created for the Greater South Buffalo area including all of the neighborhoods and not just a small section, which seems to be alluded to here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Luvbug59 (talk • contribs) 08:01, 4 December 2010 (UTC)