Talk:South Foreland Lighthouses

Lower lighthouse

 * Hi. Are we sure that this picture shows the lower lighthouse, because there is nothing related on the file description? I've included the photo of the ruin that we have, presumably taken from a different angle. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:12, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Also pinging who kindly uploaded the postcard &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:15, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Wow - I hadn't even realised that there were two South Foreland lighthouses - should have read the article. I'm in Yorkshire, so no chance of having a look. Yes, you're right to question it, and it does look like the upper lighthouse, doesn't it. You are welcome to remove "my" postcard picture from the article or move and re-caption it. Also, you are very welcome to correct the description on its image filepage, because you probably have more information than I do. Thank you for the heads up on this. FYI I used to live in Kent, and back in the 60s went up one of the Kent lighthouses to see the glass reflector. It floated on a sea of mercury and ball bearings, and it spun on the touch of your little finger, the way a bell wheel does (but horizontally). At that time they were decommissioning or updating some of the older ones, and people were invited to see the old system while it was still there. Sadly that one was no longer to be lit up. Storye book (talk) 13:00, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, I have no particular reason to doubt that this is the lower lighthouse. (The arrangement of the chimneys seems different for a start.) But then it would seem that the term "South Foreland Lighthouse" could refer to either of the lighthouses, which is very confusing. I would suggest we rename the article South Foreland Lighthouses, and I may have a look to restructure the article a bit and separate the history of each one. By the way, I am not knowledgeable at all, it was Barabbas1312 who wrote most of the article! &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 13:12, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello both - many thanks for the photo (and memories) and  for the question. The two lighthouses were built to a very similar design, but not quite identical: the lower lighthouse was a shorter tower (two storeys plus lantern, rather than three storeys plus lantern), and a slightly different shape (in plan a regular octagon, whereas the high lighthouse is a truncated square). I am persuaded that it is indeed the Lower Light, I checked carefully against other vintage photos before adding the caption - eg see this photo or this photo (which is a very similar view to yours, but marked 'South Foreland Lighthouse - LL' ('LL'='Low Light')). I am not sure about renaming the article; historically, many older UK lighthouses had two towers, one of which was then decommissioned when technological improvements rendered them obsolete. Most of these lighthouses are named on Wikipedia in the singular, representing their current or recent operational name; but the articles rightly include details of the former paired light as an inseparable part of the story.--Barabbas1312 (talk) 14:18, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the detailed answer, and thanks for all your work on the article. You're right, the other pairs do seem to be named in the singular. But from a grammatical point of view, they are two buildings, two lighthouses. Interestingly on wikidata the lower light is labelled as . Have you seen this term in any of the sources you have looked at? &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 15:31, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually here is an example that you were editing just a few days ago: Harwich High and Low Lighthouses. Now that we have a precedent, how about South Foreland High and Low Lighthouses? But I think I prefer the simplicity of my first suggestion. &mdash; Martin (MSGJ · talk) 17:06, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * I am reading the above information with great interest. Re the Wikidata name for the old lighthouse - St Margarets - well of course that is its address, being in the St Margaret's area of Dover, but is not its historic name, as we see from the postcard and other sources. I have had a recent brush with Wikidata authorities, namely the Library of Congress, which had only an incorrect death date for my 19th-century biography subject Thomas Ashburton Picken. They initially sniffed at "my" article because it's on WP, but then realised that they had no sources other than those included in that article, and quietly linked "my" article on their own official information page, while retaining their incorrect death date as the page heading (sigh). So don't worry about Wikidata - it's full of errors, and all those institutions have been copying eachother for years. Storye book (talk) 17:49, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Update. I've just noticed that in Historic England's listing, the lower lighthouse is called St Margaret's Old Lighthouse, so maybe it was indeed an alternative name. Storye book (talk) 20:05, 19 February 2021 (UTC)