Talk:South Slavic languages/Archive 2

Proposed Dispute Resolution
I, for one, think the map is extremely well done and should only be corrected to avoid poking nationalist sentiments in the butt. So I suggest: VMORO 14:23, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Using dots for territories in Greece and Turkey as well as North Dobrudja to indicate past distribution (prior to population exchange agreements, etc.).
 * 2) Using islands for Banat Bulgarian and those territories in Greece where Slavic is still spoken
 * 3) Separating Southwestern Bulgarian and Macedonian at the state border, as per the prevailing sociolinguistic opinion (i.e., linguistic and ethnic consciousness trumps structural criteria). Let me remind you that depending on how we use structural criteria, we can strike off Macedonian as an independent language completely.
 * 4) Different colour scheme for Southwestern Bulgarian and Macedonian
 * 5) The boundary between Bulgarian and Macedonian should be the state boundary followed by the yat boundary in Greece, as per current western scholarly consensus. Please respect sources rather than claiming that "a map was created by a reputable member of the community". A map can be created by God, but when it does not reflect NPOV, it shouldn't be posted here. Sources:
 * "Similarly, Bulgarian politicians often argue that Macedonian is simply a dialect of Bulgarian – which is really a way of saying, of course, that they feel Macedonia ought to be part of Bulgaria. From a purely linguistic point of view, however, such arguments are not resolvable, since dialect continua admit of more-or-less but not either-or judgements. :""Sociolinguists agree that in such situations the decision as to whether a particular variety of speech constitutes a language or a dialect is always based on political, rather than linguistic criteria (Trudgill 1974:15). A language, in other words, can be defined 'as a dialect with an army and a navy' (Nash 1989:6)." }}"As for the Slavic dialects of Greece, Trudgill classifies the dialects in the east Greek Macedonia as part of the Bulgarian language area and the rest as Macedonian dialects.""'The Western dialect is used in Florina and Kastoria and is closest to the language used north of the border, the Eastern dialect is used in the areas of Serres and Drama and is closest to Bulgarian, the Central dialect is used in the area between Edessa and Salonica and forms an intermediate dialect'""Macedonian dialectology... considers the dialects of south-western Bulgaria to be Macedonian, despite the lack of any widespread Macedonian national consciousness in that area. The standard map is provided by Vidoeski.(1998: 32) It would be futile to tell an ordinary citizen of the Macedonian capital, Skopje, that they do not realise that they are actually speaking Bulgarian. It would be equally pointless to tell citizens of the southwestern Bulgarian town of Blagoevgrad that they (or at least their compatriots in the surrounding countryside) do not ‘really’ speak Bulgarian, but Macedonian. In other words, regardless of the structural and linguistic arguments put forth by a majority of Bulgarian dialectologists, as well as by their Macedonian counterparts, they are ignoring one, essential fact – that the present linguistic identities of the speakers themselves in various regions do not always correspond to the prevailing nationalist discourses."
 * I think this is a good proposal, please comment below if you disagree of have alternative proposals or suggested tweaks. I am posting the map here so that it doesn't get lost in the constant edits.


 * VMORO I agree with the majority of the proposed changes, I'd like to to underline that Macedonian is without a doubt an independent language today, and any other POV (like the current version of the map) is not NPOV. I'll like to adress point 5 - the map in question is reliably sourced, part from being created by a reputable member of the community. Either way, that is offtopic.
 * I have one proposition to add - the Macedonian dialects in N.Macedonia, and west of the yat border, including ones in Albania, be classifed according to the Macedonian classification, backed up by non-Macedonian sources i.e the division of Northern, Western, Eastern and Southern dialect groups.
 * I'd also like to bring attention to the border between Torlakian and the Bulgarian dialects - I think that the border should be pushed further east.
 * Furthermore I'd like to add Kosovo and Albania to your first point.
 * Regards. Kluche (talk) 17:12, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) "Macedonian is without a doubt an independent language today, " - No argument here.
 * 2) "I'd ll like to adress point 5 - the map in question is reliably sourced" - If you mean the POV nationalistic Macedonian map where Macedonian dialects extend deep into Bulgarian and Greek territory - No, I completely disagree. This might have been the view of Slavistics in the 1960s and 1970s, but this is not the prevailing view at the moment. Again, we can use a map made by a reputable person from entirely reputable sources dating back to 1910, which will show Macedonian dialects as Bulgarian. Do you get my drift finally or not?
 * 3) "the Macedonian dialects in N.Macedonia, and west of the yat border, including ones in Albania, be classifed according to the Macedonian" - I personally don't mind but there are limits to how detailed you can be. I've no idea if this is possible.
 * 4) "between Torlakian and the Bulgarian dialects - I think that the border should be pushed further east." - well, based on what? Look at this Serbian map (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torlakian_dialects#/media/File:Torlak_dialects_map_en.png) and the Bulgarian map (https://ibl.bas.bg/interaktivna-dialektna-karta-na-balgarskiya-ezik/), the border is practically identical. So how do you mean?
 * 5) "add Kosovo and Albania to your first point." - Absolutely, the border is not realistic. it should only include Prespa
 * I also want to add the following suggestions:
 * 6) Areas with non-Slavic majority should, in my opinion, be greyed out, or should have dots as regions that were formerly populated by Slavic speakers.
 * 7) The Bulgarian speaking areas in Bessareabia should be added.
 * 8) I propose that the dialects in central Greek Macedonia be referred to as "either Macedonian only or "transitional between Macedonian or Bulgarian", as per sources. I will try to get in touch with the person who made the map. VMORO 19:28, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * I have left a message on the creator's page. Hopefully, he will agree to redraw. VMORO 19:33, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * 1. The map in question uses, again, sources from the late 90s and 2000s, and only one being from the 80s. So it is more recent than you attempt to portray it.
 * The map represents chauvinist Macedonian POV.
 * 2. I believe it is possible, judging how detailed the borders in the Shtokavian, Kajkavian, Chakavian and Slovene areas are.
 * Then it should be fine😊. That is if the creator reacts.
 * 3. Based on the maps you've sent - although I think this might be a misunderstanding, since I think that that pink area between Torlakian and Western Bulgarian is under Western Bulgarian.
 * I am losing the thread by now, please reply below my answers, or number them as I have so that we can keep track of each other. If you mean the transitional dialects (as we call them), the areas are exactly the same whether the map is Serbian and calls them Torlak, ours and we call them Transitional or Outer Northwestern, or you when you refer to them as Northern Macedonian, the area is the same.
 * I'll follow up on this - the labeling needs work, as it is very unconcise. I suggest that a seperate legend be formed, instead of overlaying the name over the dialectal area - since there's many colors which seemingly go unlabeled (lie the pink area between Torlakian and Western Bulgarian which I mentioned above).
 * I agree with that😊.
 * I agree with everything else. Kluche (talk) 19:47, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Wonderful. So it looks we can agree on stuff. if you are sincere, of course. VMORO 22:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Other maps already on Wikipedia, btw in most of them Bg and Mk have been portrayed together and with the same colour, your input, Kluche?

VMORO 22:30, 10 May 2023 (UTC) Plus: http://www.muturzikin.com/carteseurope/europe.htm http://www.muturzikin.com/carteseurope/europe.htm https://i.redd.it/80rqlzt5j4l81.jpg https://www.pinterest.com/pin/319685273534333646/ https://www.quora.com/Do-people-in-the-Balkans-speak-the-same-language https://mapsontheweb.zoom-maps.com/post/700434830247297024/language-of-balkans-by-hellenicmaps https://www.google.com/search?q=ethnic+groups+in+southeastern+europe&rlz=1C1YTUH_enBG1036BG1036&sxsrf=APwXEddVBXcF0Z3Tu1yOJ_QYL9fsPG-mYA:1683757997148&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwja57qq5-v-AhUZR_EDHR71DVMQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1536&bih=624&dpr=1.25#imgrc=0j4st2Trn4oE6M https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Languages_of_Europe_map.png VMORO 22:34, 10 May 2023 (UTC)


 * I have no idea what your point is here. Again, WP:OTHERCONTENT. I have no clue why you've provided some random Pinterest, Reddit, Quora and Google search links.
 * Macedonian is today an internationally recognized independent language, part of the South Slavic languages something which must be portrayed in the map from which this disucssion sprung up. Kluche (talk) 22:49, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
 * My point is that you are waving all over Wikipedia a map that shows 10% of Bulgaria as Macedonian-speaking, which you yourself agree here is not true. Both you and I have agreed here — not with each other, but with the prevailing opinion in sociolinguistics that in cases such as this one, it is the ethnic and linguistic identity that matters the most, as the dialects in the Southwestern Bulgarian to Western Macedonian dialectal continuum are extremely close to one another. You can easily see the difference between, say, the difference between the Vratsa dialect and the Bitola dialect at both ends, but defining the exact boundary between the two languages based on structural critria is next to impossible, because based on the criteria you pick, the border can be anywhere: on the Vardar — or perhaps as far north as Pernik.


 * But you say — oh, Friedman is one among the 10 people (the other ones Macedonian) who provided input for the map - so, it must be the real shit, yeah right? No, not even a little bit. Friedman along with Lunt is mostly known for serving the Yugoslav position on the dispute during the Cold War. I can find you someone else, with an equal level of "respect" or "reputation", say, Krohnsteiner, who says Macedonian dialects are Western Bulgarian — which should make the map you took down absolutely acceptable, right? If I dig around, I bet I can find that one of the maps, even among the ones that do not differentiate between Bulgarian and Macedonian, has had input by someone of a "passable" reputation. So we can use it, right? You have no excuse for the Macedonian dialects map. You actually lost the last one yourself a couple of days ago when you removed this map. If you cannot countenance this map, then why do you think I should countenance yours? Am I clearer😁? Yes, I know I make absolutely cryptic remarks. VMORO 02:25, 13 May 2023 (UTC)


 * That map is pure SYNTH - saying someone from Kichevo speaks the same dialect as someone from Sofia ("Western Bulgarian / Macedonian") is utter nonsense. Please stick to sourced maps rather than mix-mashes that best suit your POV. Kromid (talk) 11:59, 11 May 2023 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but not really. Sure, what you refer to as Central Mac. dialects have very specific features - triple definite article, perfect with имам, antipenultimative stress, ќ & ѓ for Praslavic tj dj, etc., but where are these features in Pirin Macedonia - and even in Maleshevo for that matter? The dialects there are almost identical to the Kyustendil dialect and Dupnitsa dialect and have far more in common with the Elin Pelin dialect or Vratsa dialect than with the Kichevo dialect.


 * And the Southwestern dalects have plenty of things in common even with the Central Mac. dialects: only five strongly palatal consonants, lack of schwa, a for ѫ, о for ъ in most positions, цр instead of чер, no or very limited vowel reduction, etc. You don't really know much about Bulgarian dialects, do you? Anyway, I would love to get an update of the map, as proposed and agreed by me and Kluche. And you should also update your own POV dialectal map - or take it down altogether. VMORO 09:17, 13 May 2023 (UTC)