Talk:South Station (subway)

Accessibility
There are a Lot of elevators here. Where are they documented? I have used these: Chinesesurname (talk) 11:54, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) between a kiosk outside the entrance to South Station and the turnstile lobby.
 * 2) between the turnstile lobby and a Silver line platform and the Southbound Red line side platform.
 * 3) between the Southbound Red line side platform and the outbound Silver line platform.
 * 4) between the turnstile lobby and a Silver line platform.
 * 5) between the Inbound Silver line platform and the Alewife-bound Redline side platform.

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Merger proposal
I propose that South Station (MBTA station) be merged into South Station. The subway/BRT station is considered part of the main South Station complex, which it is directly under. Moreover, it's treated that way in the sources. The current disambiguation is inadequate anyway, MBTA Commuter Rail runs at the main South Station, and South Station (MBTA) redirects there, so the current setup is confusing.Cúchullain t/ c 16:08, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment: The article was split in 2011 following the discussion at Talk:South Station, based on the precedents of Washington Union Station and New York's Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal (and others not mentioned there such as LA Union Station, Baltimore's Penn Station and Camden Station, Toronto Union Station and others). I supported the split then, and I don't see any change needed, so I oppose a merge now. The South Station (MBTA) redirect should probably be retargeted, but that's a side discussion. oknazevad (talk) 18:49, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
 * At the very least the disambiguator needs to change, as South Station (MBTA station) could apply to either article. 30th Street station (subway) is what we used for a SEPTA station in Philadelphia with a similar setup. WP:USSTATION would recommend something like South Station (Red and Silver Line), though that's a bit long.--Cúchullain t/ c 20:38, 5 January 2018 (UTC)
 * It used to be at South Station (MBTA subway station) but was changed for consistency. I do agree that it is insufficient disambiguation, and moved it back breifly when that happened, only to find a discussion on a personal talk page regarding it. That is terrible, as it doesn't be allow for other editors to easily input their opinions. oknazevad (talk) 19:01, 6 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Support, much as I hate to agree with Cuchullain on anything; the subway, bus, and mainline rail stations make up one single integrated complex, and it is nonsensical to cut them apart into two separate articles. As it currently stands, with the mainline rail part of the station in one article and the subway and bus part in a second, the surface-level bus part (including SL4 and SL5), which is more closely connected to the mainline rail station than to the subway and SL1/SL2 station, is instead lumped in with the latter, which is somewhat ridiculous; however, if the surface-level bustation were to be moved over into the article about the mainline rail station, then that would unacceptably obscure its relationship to the subsurface bustation, and also to the subway station (as that would cause the station's connecting bus routes not to show up in the article about the station, unlike most MBTA subway station articles with bus connections, where the connecting busses show up in the station article itself).  The ideal solution for this is to get rid of the awkward split and merge the two parts of the station into one article.


 * Also, almost all articles about MBTA stations with both subway and commuter rail service discuss both in the same article (as a matter of fact, the only MBTA station that I can think of for which this is not the case is–surprise surprise–this one). I am aware that this is not the case for the articles for most other US systems, but (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) isn't the main reason for having separate articles in those cases that the subway stations frequently have longer or otherwise different names than the connecting commuter rail stations (for instance, Grand Central Terminal [mainline rail station] vs. Grand Central–42nd Street [subway station], or Evanston Davis Street [mainline rail] vs. Davis [subway]); when this isn't the case, and the subway and mainline rail stations share the same name (as is true for all MBTA stations with both subway and commuter rail service), the stations generally also share an article, as with, for example, Union Station (Los Angeles) or Denver Union Station.


 * As such, the usual reasons for splitting off the subway and mainline rail stations from each other are and have always been absent for South Station, but the disadvantages of having them split like this are still present, causing a single, unified article to be the best option in this case. Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty &#124; Averted crashes 18:56, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, not sure why you hate to agree with me, but yes, we do have precedent for articles that include all modes in one article. On top of those examples, I also merged articles with no objection at Park Avenue station (Montreal) and Detroit station. It's always stricken me as unnecessarily confusing for readers to have separate articles for some modes. In my experience it's better for readers to have one good article than several redundant ones, especially when the content is weak.--Cúchullain t/ c 14:59, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * In fact, North Station incorporates its subway element...--Cúchullain t/ c 15:19, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Red, Silver and Train
"There are underground passageways upstairs to the inter-city rail station and many restaurants."

This makes it sound like the Red Line station is directly connected on the inside of the station. Is this the case? I must admit, the way the diagram is shown and how it's written, for someone who has never been to Boston or this station, the description is pretty confusing. Part of the problem is that mentions of the Silver Line station are mentioned in between the description of the Red Line station. A few things I think need to be clarified include:

1. Is the mention of the entrances on the four corners of Atlantic and Summer for the Red Line station, Silver Line station or both?

2. If it's only a mention of the entrances for the Red Line station, the entrances/access for the Silver Line station need to be explicitly mentioned.

3. Are the Red Line platforms and Silver Line platforms at the same level? It sounds like they are in seperate cuts/tunnels. In either case, are they connected by an undereground passage, or do you have to go up to street level to access the other?

Basically, we need a better description on how and where all of the stations are connected in this complex. --Criticalthinker (talk) 16:07, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
 * I changed the wording a bit. If the articles are eventually merged it might be easier to describe the station as a whole. Grk1011 (talk) 18:59, 29 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmm, this rewording actually makes things less clear. We do need some mention of above/below, etc.  The description didn't need less words, but more.  And it still doesn't describe which station (red, silver or both) exactly the street-level access on the four corners access.  After doing a bit of research myself after I posted that, my understanding is still fuzzy but it sounds as if the Red Line station (with platforms oriented generally east-west) is at the lowest level (-2, if you will) then you have the Silver Line station (with platforms oriented generally perpendicular north-south) right below the ground (-1), and then you have the inter-city station at ground level.  What I'm a bit confused about is what level the connecting mezzanine is (is it on the same level as the Silver Line Station, or on a level between the Red Line and the Silver Line stations?) that accesses both stations, and then vertically, if each station is lined up directly atop/bottom of each other?  I sounds like the Silver Line station platforms are basically centered under the intersection of Atlantic and Summer, which would mean any connection to the inter-city station involves passageways that connect to the west of the inter-city stations, so they don't appear to be directly above/below one another.  Even less clear is where the lower-level Red Line platforms are in relation to the Silver Line station and inter-city station and thus if the mezzanine to access both underground stations is east or west of the Silver Line station.
 * Anyway, guess what I'm saying is that we need more directional descriptions (above/below, east-west-north-south of). Hope all of this makes sense. --Criticalthinker (talk) 00:36, 30 January 2018 (UTC)


 * I find those diagrams extremely hard to read in general, but it seems the diagram is incorrect, not my description. Feel free to improve the wording though. Directly under the intersection of Summer and Atlantic is the mezzanine and fare collection area. At this level there is also a tunnel that connects it to the commuter rail station, which is at ground level. Under the mezzanine is the Silver Line platforms and under that is the Red Line platforms. Separate from all of that there is a street level Silver Line bus stop a block away at Atlantic and Essex because that branch of the line does not connect to the tunnel. Grk1011 (talk) 20:17, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'll have to wait for someone from the area to do this not having any sources to cite, but that is actually really helpful. Those diagrams usually confuse me, too, as I guess it depends on what the definition of "mezzanine" is.  As you tell it, there are actually three underground levels: Mezzanine, then down to Silver Line platforms, and then down to Red Line platforms, whereas the the diagram seems to make a distinction between the mezzanine and silver line platforms, but not even to save they are two different levels.  I'm going to look at other pages to see if this is how mezzanines are consistently done on other station pages.
 * I guess this does answer most of my questions then. So the four accesses on each corner of Summer and Atlantic are to the shared mezzanine for the underground stations, and the connection to the inter-city station is via the mezzanine level.  All that leaves is my curiosity about whether the stations under the mezzanine are directly on top/below one another (stacked) and if the platforms for the two stations are perdendicular to one another?  On many of these pages of shared underground stations that's something they include to orient people better in a description. --Criticalthinker (talk) 11:17, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
 * The platforms are stacked and perpendicular. I tried finding a 3D model of the entire station (which I swear I've seen before), but I can't seem to locate it. Grk1011 (talk) 16:48, 31 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your patience with me. As you can tell, I like to be very precise. lol  If you think now with all of this information you could rewrite that section you did, that would be great. I've been looking for a cross-section of the station, too, but can find nothing of the sort.  Same for North Station.  For whatever reason, seems the MBTA doesn't have a lot of detail as it concerns their infrastructure. --Criticalthinker (talk) 18:09, 31 January 2018 (UTC)