Talk:South Uist/Archive 1

Flag
− 	The current version includes a flag for which the source admits "I don't think the flag is used and I've certainly never seen it used here on the island or any other flags for that matter." So far as I am aware the flag has no official status whatever and I will remove it again. Ben MacDuiTalk /  Walk  7:47 pm, 1 December 2007, Saturday (3 years, 11 months, 29 days ago) (UTC+0) − 		 − 	The source also says "it clearly shows the South Uist Flag flying outside Daliburgh school in South Uist last year alongside the Cape Breton Flag - on the page at http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gd/colaiste/gaelic-vids.php, go to the film entitled "Aithriseachd air Ceolas" under the heading "Ceolas" it appears about 30 seconds in." − 		 − 	The source is FOTW - maybe best to research and review that site before dismissing it out of hand. It has always been the authorative site. There has been a long discussion there - since 1998 - over the use, or not, of the Western Isles flags. − 		 − 	Johann Krause − 	Cologne, Germany − 	--195.37.61.178 8:54 am, 3 December 2007, Monday (3 years, 11 months, 27 days ago) (UTC+0) −
 * But the paragraph you are talking about isn't authoritative at all, its just an email sent to site and published online. Because someone saw it flying in a video (beside a Canadian flag) doesn't really prove anything. It doesn't mean the flag should be added to the article, IMO.--Celtus 9:38 am, 3 December 2007, Monday (3 years, 11 months, 27 days ago) (UTC+0)

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 * I was co-creator of the original Virtual Hebrides site where these flags were discussed at length back in the 1990s. Much of our original material forms the basis of quite a few articles about the Western Isles on the Wikipedia.

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 * IMHO, all flags anywhere in the world can be considered unofficial until somebody runs it up a flagpole and salutes it. The Western Isles Council flag can be considered unofficial. But some graphic designer at Comhairle nan Eilean designed it and somebody elsemade it offifical by flying it outside their HQ. Therefore, it's a flag. Some bodies decide to recognise these flags but they are just people like Wikipedians. Just because so-and-so says this and so-and-do says that, it doesn't imply any opinion is better than another. The proof for flags is in the flying.

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 * There was certainly a history to both the Lewis and Barra flags but I am prepared to accept that there is controversy and they should not be on the Wikipedia yet. But South Uist? Well, it has actually flown, at an official event in South Uist. To me, this is a no-brainer. It has flown. It's official. --Scotthatton 1:26 pm, 3 December 2007, Monday (3 years, 11 months, 27 days ago) (UTC+0)

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 * Well, the only thing official is that this flag has flown at the school, beside the Cape Breton flag and a Ceòlas flag.--Celtus 7:52 am, 4 December 2007, Tuesday (3 years, 11 months, 26 days ago) (UTC+0)

− 		 − 	In line with the discussion above, has anybody a particular objection to the South Uist flag being displayed now? It has been recognised as the flag for South Uist by Flags of the World and it is being flown on the island. Could those people with objections on a vexillological basis, state the reasons for their objections? We should make no changes to the article page yet until there is concensus - the Western Isles flags has been a long topic for debate (I've been involved in this debate since 1995 or so!). − 		 − 	For those interested in flags in particular - not just the Western Isles, there is an excellent mailing list associated with FOTW - the Yahoo group called "Flags". I am reintroducing this discussion there today and will report back here if I remember to! − 	--Scotthatton 2:05 pm, 4 December 2007, Tuesday (3 years, 11 months, 26 days ago) (UTC+0) − 		 −
 * The flag should not go in the article until there is a reference that shows it is the official flag. Just because someone spotted it at a school means nothing other than it has flown at a school..--Celtus (talk) 6:02 am, 5 December 2007, Wednesday (3 years, 11 months, 26 days ago) (UTC+0)

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 * When is a flag "official"?

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 * Here is the standard vexillological line: "The physical rendering *and* flying is the issue: whether the flag is printed on cloth or some other material is irrelevant, provided it is flown. Until that stage, designs are merely proposals." (Flags mailing list, FOTW)

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 * The Western Isles flag was designed by W.I. Council. The Devon flag was designed as part of a competition. When is a flag "official"? When it has flown.

− 	--Scotthatton (talk) 9:03 am, 5 December 2007, Wednesday (3 years, 11 months, 25 days ago) (UTC+0) − 		 − 	For something to appear here it has to be notable. If I fly a flag out of my window that I claim represents the 'People's Republic of Rockall' that is simply attention-seeking, not notability. As has occurred before I fear that this flag's sole claim to notability is that it has appeared here. Ben MacDuiTalk /  Walk  9:23 am, 5 December 2007, Wednesday (3 years, 11 months, 25 days ago) (UTC+0) − 		 −
 * Ben - that's not the discussion here. For a flag to appear on a Wikipedia page, it must be recognised. South Uist's flag is. If you fly a Rockall flag from your window, only you recognise it.

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 * I write space science for a living. I could say "The lunar poles display areas of quasi-eternal light, have a stable thermal environment and are close to dark areas that could host water ice – potential future lunar base sites." On the Wikipedia, you can come along and change "thermal" to "blancmange". It is the job of the space scientist to come along and change it back. But what makes the correction to blancmange wrong? What makes it wrong is that it's a matter of people writing in a field there are expert on against people who hold an opinion.

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 * If FOTW moved the South Uist flag onto the Hebridean flag page, it means that there has been an extensive discussion on the list amongst vexillologists and it is deemed "official" (whatever that means). It is up to the experts in the field, vexillologists who discuss these things to pronounce on a flag for South Uist, Gaelic speakers to say it's "Uibhist a Deas" and not "Uibhist-a-Deas", historians to comment on the rocket firing range.

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 * --Scotthatton (talk) 10:22 am, 5 December 2007, Wednesday (3 years, 11 months, 25 days ago) (UTC+0)

− 		 − 	It would be helpful if you could point to this discussion. All I can see is three desultory exchanges which at best amount to a claim it was once flown by a school. What I would need to be convinced is some concrete proof that an organisation with some claim to represent the people of South Uist as a whole (a community council, a development trust, Comhairle nan Eilean Siar etc.) have accepted the flag as legitimate. I am not against the idea of a flag and if South Uist has chosen one, then that's great. What I don't think works is a website that sells flags being used as an authority on their behalf. Ben MacDuiTalk /  Walk  7:49 pm, 5 December 2007, Wednesday (3 years, 11 months, 25 days ago) (UTC+0) − 		 −
 * The discussion is on the Flags list. You would have to join the mailing list at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flags/. I don't think it is my place to reproduce discussions there, here. However you are free to join up. Who are you talking about selling flags? I don't think anybody involved in this discussion has a commercial angle. I am NOT selling South Uist flags! --Scotthatton (talk) 9:03 am, 6 December 2007, Thursday (3 years, 11 months, 24 days ago) (UTC+0)

− 		 − 	I am not accusing you of selling flags! I do however note that the source site says: "but this flag is available for purchase and I can confirm that we have definitely despatched at least one of these flags to South Uist." I am sure it is a less than lucrative line, but it does hint at a commercial interest. Here's another quote from WP:FLAG: − 		 − 	"The practice of inventing a new flag to fill a perceived need for one is not simply deprecated but expressly forbidden by policy, as it constitutes original research; additionally it will most often advance a personal viewpoint which may have political or other contentious undertones, and it constitutes the neologistic invention of something that is unlikely to be recognizable or meaningful to anyone else." − 	Ben MacDuiTalk /  Walk  6:20 pm, 6 December 2007, Thursday (3 years, 11 months, 24 days ago) (UTC+0) −
 * In about eighteen months of discussing this flag with people actually from South Uist, not one person ever accussed anybody of inventing this flag, even in a hint (and even if they had invented it - it was considered too rude). But that was the Western Isles in the 1990s when research was done in libraries and by talking to people. Since nobody actually wants to do any more than about a minutes' real research apart from "look quickly at a website and return", I will now leave this debate. It's pointless. --Scotthatton (talk) 9:18 am, 7 December 2007, Friday (3 years, 11 months, 23 days ago) (UTC+0)