Talk:South Wales Valleys

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List of important valleys in South Wales Shouldn't the list of 'industrialised valleys' in south Wales include the Gwendraeth valley in the West (which had significant mining) but not include the Usk and Wye valleys in the East which had no significant industrialisation? Huwbwici (talk) 12:03, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


 * As far as I can see the list is of 'important' not 'industrialised' valleys. What makes you think that industrialisation is more important than tourism, which is what the Usk and Wye valleys are noted for?  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 15:09, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Isn't the idea of 'important' valleys a bit vague and POV? What is the criteria for an important valley? Pondle (talk) 17:40, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree, but as the list exists I would think the Usk and Wye valleys are as 'important' or as notable as any other. Maybe it should simply be a list of all the valleys that have wikilinks that provide quick access to individual articles.  ♦ Jongleur100 ♦  talk 17:52, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Cardiff Valley
Welshleprechaun recently made an edit asserting that the Taff Valley is also called the "Cardiff Valley" in the media. I don't know about anyone else, but I haven't seen this phrase used before, and it seems strange to me given that Cardiff itself is relatively flat. I couldn't find a reference to "Cardiff Valley" as a geographical descriptor when searching WalesOnline (though there is a reference to a sports team called the "Cardiff Valley Rams") or the BBC news website. Can any other editors throw any light on the matter? Pondle (talk) 19:13, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Welshleprechaun, the reference you provided doesn't mention the 'Cardiff Valley'. A transport commentator is quoted as saying "“In addition, there is a very strong case for the electrification also of the Cardiff Valleys routes". This is clearly a reference to the Valley Lines rail network. He's not saying that the Taff Valley is also known as the 'Cardiff Valley', and I don't see how it can be read as such. I've asked Ghymyrtle to comment, as he has a background in geography. In the meantime, please do not revert until we've resolved this issue on the talk page.Pondle (talk) 13:20, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm reluctant to express a view as I'm not local to the Cardiff area. The only obvious reference I've seen, other than the quite widespread references to the "Cardiff Valley [railway] lines" - is here in relation to Castell Coch - "a romantic fantasy - a piece of Bavaria imported into the Cardiff valley. It clings dramatically to a hillside overlooking the Taff river".  So, the term is obviously used to a limited extent.  Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:55, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Very well then, I will "revert my revert". Pondle (talk) 16:02, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Welshleprechaun, congrats on all the good hard work you've done on the article, one thing however just thought I'd explain my reasoning for not agreeing with expressly listing the Ely, Taff and Rhymney valleys under the subheading 'Cardiff Valleys'. The opening statement reads that and I quote - "The South Wales Valleys (Welsh: Cymoedd De Cymru) are a number of industrialised valleys in South Wales". To subcategorise these valleys within Cardiff creates confusion, since Cardiff does not have valleys as such being flat nor does it share the social demographic of the 'valleys'. The term 'South Wales Valleys' is used within the context of as you correctly point out the indsutrialised regions of South Wales based on the history of coal and iron mining in these areas and their consequent decline. Cardiff like Newport and the Vale of Glamorgan became prosperous because of the valleys but had little coal or iron production of their own right within their boundaries rather these feature rich pastural land, are major ports and largely affluent residential suburbs, hardly what is thought of as 'the valleys'. While the rivers Taff, Ely and Rhymney indeed flow through Cardiff, the article isn't specifically discussing river courses it is discussing valleys in its broad more general sense, nor is it referring to the pseudonyms of railway lines (i.e. Cardiff Valley Lines). To list these valleys specifically as being Cardiff is to imply that they are exclusive to the city, and regardless on this basis you may as well list the Usk and Ebbw as being 'Newport Valleys' etc. Can you please reconsider or else provide opening text to qualify your listing of valleys. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.132.197 (talk) 18:20, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

I can see no logic at all in the way that 'Cardiff Valleys' is used in this article. If it is intended to include all the valleys which eventually drain into the Severn Estuary in Cardiff, then it should include the Cynon, Rhondda and Aber Valleys; if it is intended to include only those which actually reach as far as Cardiff then the Taff Bargoed Valley ought to be excluded. Further, if 'Cardiff Valleys' is retained then the Aber Valley seems misplaced (though as it lies between the Taff Valley and the Rhymney Valley it surely demonstrates the illogicality of the current list). In my view it would be best to lose this sub-category entirely.Ntmr (talk) 18:12, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps it would have been better to hyphenate the phrase as Cardiff-Valleys to avoid confusion in future? SandySue845 (talk) 19:34, 10 December 2019 (UTC)

Room for improvement, August 2009
I'm tagging a couple of sections that need additional work: 1. History - I've started to expand this, but it's still perfunctory and the narrative order is mixed up. 2. Decline - the peak output from the South Wales coalfield was in 1913, the Valleys were in serious trouble in the 20s and 30s, and pits closed throughout the post-war era. However, as currently written this attributes undue weight to WW2 and in particular the pit closures of the 1980s. 3. Culture - completely unreferenced and notably lacking in coverage of religion. We're also missing something on physical geography and environment. Pondle (talk) 23:42, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

You're doing a good job so far. I'll have a go at the transport section - expand and find references. Welshleprechaun (talk) 12:44, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the transport section is already comprehensive, although it lacks detail on certain roads and bus services to places other than Cardiff (important in the more westerly and easterly valleys). We want to avoid it becoming a timetable or travel guide though. Pondle (talk) 13:16, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

A bit more information
I'm not a wiki member and I'm not at all au fait with the standards so I thought I'd post this here for someone else to find sources for and incorporate into the article. Sorry if this is the wrong way to do it!

The industry expanded because all the raw materials for making iron (ie. iron ore, coal and limestone) were locally available. Due to the hills and valleys, the coal was easy to mine as the seams were not far beneath the valleys. Also, the British Empire provided a guaranteed market.

The industry declined becuase modern machinery couldn't be introduced (seams too thin) and I believe the government subsidised its introduction elsewhere, meaning that coal production in the area was inefficient. The fall of the British Empire also meant that South Wales had to compete with other countries who were often cheaper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.237.72 (talk) 19:32, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Category
A recent change removed the article from, as it was already in , itself a subcategory of , as it shouldn't be in both categories at the same time. My view is that of the two categories it would be more appropriate in. Thoughts? Daicaregos (talk) 07:18, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Another suggestion has been made: ., which would be my preference. Daicaregos (talk) 09:25, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:10, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Fine with me too.--Pondle (talk) 17:29, 8 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Daicaregos (talk) 19:35, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:36, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
 * South Wales Valleys Map.png

Listed from west to east
While it's a shame that the .png map was deleted this list is a great addition to the article. However, I do think it raises three questions:


 * Should the Darran Valley be added?
 * "The Rhondda" is technically (hydrographically, I guess) comprised of two main river valleys, Rhondda Fach and Fawr. Should this be stated on the list?
 * The statement that Lougher and Rhymney valleys are "border valleys" only paints half the picture. In ancient sources such as the Llandaff charters it seem that these "borders" were not the valleys but the rivers themselves, however in modern times we all know which valleys are in which counties. Wouldn't it be more helpful on a "West to East" list to have three subdivisions (Camarthenshire, Glamorgan and Gwent) showing on which side of "the borders" these valleys are?

Happy to discuss. Cymrogogoch (talk) 22:34, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
 * Why was the map deleted from commons - copyright infringement? Another could be prepared - it would beat (or else positively supplement) a list, in terms of a geographical understanding for the reader. Geopersona (talk) 12:19, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reply,
 * The first map was deleted by User:Jon Kolbert on request, 26 June 2022 by User:Enyavar,
 * https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons%3ADeletion_requests%2FFile%3ASouth_Wales_Valleys_Map.png&diff=668531411&oldid=658765772&diffmode=source
 * I am unsure why that first map was contentious. From memory, I thought it looked very much someone's own work but I am certianly no expert on image/map coopyrights. I agree that a simple map would be more beneficial and helpful to the general reader, hopefully someone can tell us why the map was deleted or point us to the right User/discussion for more info. Cymrogogoch (talk) 12:51, 30 March 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi, it has been almost a year so I can't remember the map in question, but when I look at my request from back then, it seems that the map (either in total, or the basemap) had been lifted either from GoogleMaps or GoogleEarth. Google owns those maps (data and layout), so these images and even derivatives (where you draw on top of the copyrighted map) should never used in Commons or Wikipedia. If you used a satellite basemap, please look for OpenSource satellite pictures (like Landsat etc.) instead; another great basemap can be OpenStreetMaps which is free to use. Cheers and all the best, --Enyavar (talk) 13:36, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks @Enyavar, this is very helpful. Have a great day. Cymrogogoch (talk) 13:41, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Missing Valleys
On the list of valleys, if one is splitting the Ebbw into Fawr and Fach, then in a similar vein, the same should apply to Gwendraeth and Rhondda. Also, no mention of the Darren Valley, which runs from Fochriw in the North, through Deri, with the Darren River joining the Rhymney at Bargoed. 2A02:C7E:5749:8000:986E:797B:14B6:ED63 (talk) 04:58, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Missing Valley
DARRAN, not Darren - my apologies 2A02:C7E:5749:8000:986E:797B:14B6:ED63 (talk) 05:01, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

And another two......
The Aman Valley. Offshoot of the Cynon Valley, running from Cwmaman through Godreaman to its confluence with the Cynon at Aberaman. Unique amongst Welsh valleys, in that it runs north-east.

The Tillery Valley. Offshoot of the Ebbw Fach Valley. Runs through Cwmtillery to its confluence with the Ebbw Fach at Abertillery. 2A02:C7E:5749:8000:58F6:1FF8:D49A:FF41 (talk) 18:23, 7 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Firstly, very interesting fact on the Aman Valley.
 * I did raise the non-inclusion of the Darran Valley on the 30th November last year. I think any list of valleys is not going to be comprehensive as the term itself has a very wide application in the geography of the area and there is a fair mount of "overlap" (as I mentioned the list item Rhondda presumably includes both the Rhondda Fach and Fawr, but I guess we should assume it includes every other valley who's waters run into the river before Porth).
 * Cearly, there is currently no consensus or "rulebook" on what should and should not be included as a "South Wales Valley". Google searches for "list of South Wales Valleys" starts with a list from this very article, and then a full page of tourist infomation none of which list the valleys themselves. So I guess it's up to this talk page to decide! Cymrogogoch (talk) 13:17, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

"Welsh valleys" listed at Redirects for discussion
The redirect [//en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Welsh_valleys&redirect=no Welsh valleys] has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at  until a consensus is reached. Fork99 (talk) 17:33, 30 August 2023 (UTC)