Talk:Southend-on-Sea

Class
Is this really a c-class? I would go with B, but i ask here before making any changes Erik Sergeant (talk) 11:11, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

City
Is it a city, or has it been accounced it will be a city?Slatersteven (talk) 15:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Today it was announced that it "will be granted city status". This will come from Letters patent from the queen, but has not happened yet. MRSC (talk) 15:22, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * So we can't say it is a city, yet.Slatersteven (talk) 15:37, 18 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Page protection has been requested. MRSC (talk) 16:12, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

FFS, will we need it again?Slatersteven (talk) 14:58, 29 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 October 2021
Southend on sea is now a city 88.104.81.92 (talk) 08:52, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * NO it is not, it does not become till the queen says so.Slatersteven (talk) 09:17, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:57, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

County Borough of Southend-on-Sea
The district boundaries did not change in 1974. Per WikiProject UK geography/How to write about districts I propose moving the county borough article to City of Southend-on-Sea and keep this article for the settlement and unparished area as standard since Leigh-on-Sea is now a parish. This is similar to how London Borough of Harrow also deals with the older Municipal Borough of Harrow since the boundaries didn't change in 1965. As a side note Shopland should probably have an article, there was a draft at Draft:Shopland.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 17:40, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Southend-on-Sea (the settlement) is mainly in Southend-on-Sea (the district) just like Chelmsford is in Chelmsford.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 16:31, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * The problem is that both pages are almost identical, to the degree of having the same infobox it seems. Slatersteven (talk) 16:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Apologies, I'll deal with the infobox in the next few days, like Chelmsford it will use the standard Infobox UK place infobox.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 16:51, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Its not just the infobox, all of it looks like a cut and paste. We do not need two articles that say the same thing. Slatersteven (talk) 16:54, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Do we really need 2 articles for small differences like this? Also we could get rid of WikiProject UK geography/How to write about districts which seems to be just added to without any real discussions. Keith D (talk) 20:42, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * This was discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/Archive 26 and no one objected to the text of UKDISTRICTS or the suggested changes like to merge Fareham Urban District to Borough of Fareham. Like Municipal Borough of Harrow Southend-on-Sea didn't change in 1974 so we should have 1 article that deals with the post and pre 1974 district.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 21:02, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
 * Reading this article it seems most of the content here is about the settlement. In the "Governance" section there is quite a bit about the district (in the Local government district section) but more about the city council in the "Council" section which also has its own article Southend-on-Sea City Council. If you're concerned about duplication some information about the district (and district council) could be removed though with respect to the district I'd point out that with the likes of Torquay it contains information about Torbay.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:22, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
 * There are over 50 uses of the word city, in an article that is not about the city. There are 10 in the article about the city. The map for the "region" is the same as for the city. In fact we have more information about the city status in the article than we do in the city article. Which could be merged with this one with (literally) no loss of content. Slatersteven (talk) 18:29, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

The City of Southend article is a duplicate and really does not need to be added. In fact there is not really y a district called the City of Southend. You don't have a page called City of London covering the whole of London. Secondly the County Borough is governance, and the City article is not correct, if it was to be merged it should be moved into the current council page as part of its history.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 05:32, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

I have changed the page back and raised sn afd so the community can decide. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 12:11, 15 August 2022 (UTC)

Shoeburyness / North Shoebury / Pigs Bay
Looking at these pages should we not actually merge them? North Shoebury has very little information and it's references are now dead. Pigs Bay - it's just a bay at Shoebury not a place, again badly referenced. If these were integrated into the Shoeburyness page they are less likely to be lost at AFD.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 16:43, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Seems fair. Slatersteven (talk) 16:44, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Especially as the former parish of South Shoebury was actually redirected without setting up a page to Shoeburyness. Also North Shoebury is not really distinctive from the rest (we dont have a page for Cambridge Town), it is actually split between two Ward's for council elections (Shoeburyness and West Shoebury). I will give it a few more days to gauge opinion in North Shoebury, but I will move Pigs Bay.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 17:32, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
 * I have continued to improve the Shoeburyness page. The original settlement was called Shoebury, in the Domesday book it was just Shoebury. In fact it did split sometime after 1086 (dffering dates for when St Andrews and St Mary were consecrated) to form North and South, they were brought back together in 1933 amd have been known as Shoeburyness ever since.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 06:42, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I have now redirected North Shoebury and updated the Shoeburyness page with its history. I have also redirected Shoebury Old Ranges to Gunners Park and Shoebury Ranges as they both had the same wording and references, and as both articles state, the formal name listed by both the Essex Wildlife Trust (who run the site) and the listing of Foulness SSSI state the site is called Gunners Park & Shoebury Ranges!Davidstewartharvey (talk) 06:57, 10 April 2023 (UTC)
 * No problem with merging Pigs Bay but North Shoebury was a parish in its own right so should have a separate article per WP:GEOLAND even though the parish no longer exists it is still notable. Unlike South Shoebury which appears to have later been at least sometimes used for Shoeburyness the name "North Shoebury" is distinct. Yes it might not have been in great shape but it can be improved. I added data a while ago for the former parishes in Essex but must have missed this one.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:09, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * @Crouch, Swale to be honest there is no need for a seperate page. South Shoebury page was already redirected to Shoeburyness, so North Shoebury being redirected and info about the two parishes existing on that page side by side is not an issue. Before the parishes existed it was just Shoebury in the Rocford Hundred.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 18:28, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * But North Shoebury is definitely a different place to Shoeburyness. The place was a separate village and parish once so should have a separate article. Just because it isn't a standalone settlement or a parish today doesn't mean it should be merged.  Crouch, Swale  ( talk ) 18:32, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Was, not is. So yes I think it should be merged.Slatersteven (talk) 18:41, 14 April 2023 (UTC)
 * It madness having a separate page with very little information, when a redirect, confirming the details of the Parishes on the Shoeburyness page is a lot better, especially as Shoebury (as the Saxons named it) has a history that goes back to the Mesolithic.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 18:46, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Areas of the city (2011 census BUASD) List
In the infobox it states that the list is from the 2011 census BUASD list. However that is inaccurate as this is the list. Should we remove the census reference, update from the latest census or remove entirely? Davidstewartharvey (talk) 18:08, 6 April 2023 (UTC)


 * As no one replied I decided to remove the 2011 census comment, as it was not accurate.Davidstewartharvey (talk) 14:22, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Linking Garons to Wright's Biscuits
Garons, which is mentioned in the Southend shopping section, sold the grocery business to Moores Stores, a London Stock Exchange listed company which was controlled by a fellow LSE listed firm, Wright's Biscuits. Between them they controlled 1,000 grocery stores nationwide making them one of the biggest chains behind Home and Colonial and International Tea Co. Stores. I linked the article as Garons does not have enough coverage to be notable enough for its own article, but history after 1962 can be recorded at the Moores Stores section on Wright's Biscuits. This has been reverted. I have asked the Tearoom and was advised to discuss it here to find a concensus. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 18:43, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
 * THis line (it is I think one line) talked about shops that closed. Many still stand under new owners. Why is this so exceptional it needs to be mentioned? Slatersteven (talk) 19:13, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Music
My edit was wholesale reverted as a pub was not deemed a "major music venue", I changed the text and reinstated it, only to have the whole edit reverted again. Working on the wp:revert principle of "If you see a good-faith edit that you believe lowers the quality of the article, make a good-faith effort to reword instead of just reverting it." my edit should be reinstated, including the added punctuation that separated major venues from pubs.
 * And as you can now see I have changed it form major to primary and marked as CN, do any RS call any of these major (or even primary) music venues? Slatersteven (talk) 13:18, 14 May 2024 (UTC)


 * Sorry I don't see any change. Major should probably be changed to main, not primary. Please explain CN / RS. Thanks. Defberg (talk) 13:35, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * OK, Citation Needed? What about RS? Defberg (talk) 13:36, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * wp:rs Reliable sources, this looks very much like wp:or (original research), as I am unsure a pup or cafe can be called a primary, major or main music venue. THus we need RS calling them such. Slatersteven (talk) 13:39, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * OK. Can we at least update it to show "current" venues where musical events happen each week in the city of Southend? That was the point of my edit. Defberg (talk) 13:42, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I would say not as that might change, also how many are there? This https://www.yelp.com/search?cflt=musicvenues&find_loc=Southend-on-Sea list 10, but it is only the 10 best (and not all are even in Essex). Slatersteven (talk) 13:49, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This list shows over 80 in the city of Southend, which covers Leigh-on-Sea and Westcliff:
 * https://musiconmydoorstep.co.uk/venues/locations?layout=locations Defberg (talk) 13:57, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I am unsure this is an RS, but even if it was, a list of 80 venues would clutter up the page for no real (encyclopedic) benefit, we are not a listings site. So, therefore (at most) we need the top half dozen, as determined by a clear-cut RS. Slatersteven (talk) 14:01, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * The 80 venues was to prove a point, not to attempt to list them all. I will find an even more reliable source. Defberg (talk) 14:48, 14 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Before you start, read wp:v, the source must say they are major venues, it must not be just a list of venues. Slatersteven (talk) 14:51, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

Update of history
@user:Slatersteven Hi i am trying to update the history of Southend section based upon written histories of the area to better reflect the towns past, instead of a broad statement on it was the southend of Prittlewell. This includes an official book by Essex County Council from 1991. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 16:02, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Which we already covered. And revert back, you are edit waring. Slatersteven (talk) 16:09, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Southend Corporation Transport
I have started a question about merging Trolleybuses in Southend-on-Sea and Southend-on-Sea Corporation Tramways on their talk pages, and renaming as Southend Corporation Transport. Davidstewartharvey (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2024 (UTC)