Talk:Southern Ukraine campaign/Archives/2022/July

Scope vs 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive
What are the expected scopes of this article, Southern Ukraine offensive, versus 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive? The current risk is of people redundantly adding material to both. Boud (talk) 13:46, 11 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The scope of the counteroffensive is basically the reverse of the Southern Ukraine offensive. Russian troops enter Kherson and Zaporizhzhia Oblasts in the Southern Ukraine off. article, Ukrainian troops look to fully take back those same Oblasts in the 2022 Ukraine summer counteroff. article. PilotSheng (talk) 18:09, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose President Zelenskyy announced the beginning. This is pretty major. I think it's easy to see why. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:38, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I see that 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive was created just yesterday. My guess is that 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive is seen as more or less a sub-article of Southern Ukraine offensive, even though the title 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive is not restricted the southern region only. The non-restrictive title is probably not a problem, at least for the moment, since there doesn't seem to be ambiguity. There have been no announcements of a major Ukrainian Donbas counteroffensive being planned soon, as far as I know. Boud (talk) 13:56, 11 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @Boud The 2022 counteroffensive article is not a sub-article of this article. Russian troops are no longer on the "offensive." I do think that the minor Ukrainian counterattacks from March to early July should be a subsection of this article, but the latest order from Zelenskyy is to reclaim all of Kherson and Zaporizhzhia Oblasts, with which the Ukrainian defense minister claims they have 1,000,000 men to do. This would be a larger scale operation than the Southern Ukraine Offensive itself, and really as such should belong in its own article rather than a subsection of this article. PilotSheng (talk) 18:01, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

I see that Southern Ukraine offensive refers to the invasion by Russian forces, while 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive refers to Ukrainian forces retaking control of Ukrainian territory. So it would seem to me to make more sense to add material on the counteroffensive to 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive rather than extend the section in this article. Boud (talk) 14:11, 11 July 2022 (UTC)


 * @Boud The Hundred Days Offensive was launched as a counterattack to the German spring offensive of 1918.
 * Operation Uranus and Operation Mars launched as the 1942 Soviet counterattack to the German offensive in the Battle of Stalingrad and to a lesser extent Operation Barbarossa.
 * The 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive has been launched as a counterattack to the Southern Ukraine offensive.
 * The Hundred Days Offensive was a much larger operation than the German Spring offensive in terms of firepower, as were Operation Uranus & Mars superior to the 1942 German Stalingrad offensive in terms of morale, manpower, and firepower.
 * According to the infobox, Russia used 13,000 troops for the Southern Ukraine offensive. Ukraine claims they have 1,000,000 troops in Southern Ukraine ready to take back the occupied territory. Since the 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive is much larger in terms of manpower, firepower, morale, and perhaps even scope, the two articles need to remain separate. PilotSheng (talk) 18:07, 11 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Well this changes, there's less than that as you can see. Though we still don't know how much. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:38, 20 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment I have done a search of news sources (there being largely no other sources for us to rely on) and there were no hits for "Ukraine summer counteroffensive". The title appears to be a WP construct and not a term used in reliable sources.  When I search on ukraine "summer counteroffensive", there are 825 hits, most of which say: Ukraine plans on summer counteroffensive to oust ... and search result pages like this one actually have no mention of a summer counteroffensive.  When I limit the time to the last month, I get one hit with the same line: Ukraine plans on summer counteroffensive to oust ...  The Aljazeera report of 30 June which is the hit states: Ukraine plans on summer counteroffensive to oust Russian forces [headline]: Ukraine is making tactical retreats before a Russian onslaught in the east, saying it is biding its time to take back its territory in the second half of the year.  The article 2022 Ukraine summer counteroffensive, appears to be based on WP:OR; it is an unnecessary WP:CFORK; that it might happen falls to WP:NOTACRYSTALBALL. It probably satisfies WP:SPEEDY (WP:A11).  It should (IMO) be deleted and any content merged with other articles if not already done. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:59, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I agree with Cinderella157 here. Although there surely are enough sources speculating about a possible huge Ukrainian counteroffensive, mostly by late August. The article could be saved if its scope is changed. Super   Ψ   Dro  07:29, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
 * @Super Dromaeosaurus @Cinderella157 Agreed, I think we should probably move the article to draftspace until the counteroffensive becomes less speculative and concrete. PilotSheng (talk) 16:15, 12 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment According to my own investigation of sources, there is very little evidence that such a large offensive has begun that far. The article merely lists announcements of the Ukraine and the fact they took the village that, according to my sources, already was empty. Considering how many times the Ukraine has lied about its achievements and the ongoing situation (entering Kherson already, and probably not even once, refusing to accept the loss of cities such as Lisichansk until the whole world shoves their nose in the facts, simply ceasing to mention the villages once Russia captures them as if there wasn't such "a problem", etc., etc. etc.), I guess this article only matters as a kind of section "possible counteroffensive" here. Otherwise, it's clearly WP:NOTACRYSTALBALL: spreading rumours and wishful thinkings instead of even largely biased, but existing sources we can point at. --M1911 (talk) 10:46, 14 July 2022 (UTC)