Talk:Southern Ukraine campaign/Archives/2022/March

Same article?
What's the difference between Battle of Kherson and Kherson offensive? PurpleBuffalo (talk) 06:16, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * A battle, aka the Battle of Kherson is just the battle for the city named Kherson. The offensive article is the name for the entire large offensive from the Crimea side.  I am actually about to start a discussion to rename this offensive article. Elijahandskip (talk) 06:29, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 2 March 2022
Kherson offensive → Crimea offensive – The offensive started out appearing the main goal was Kherson, but looking at the map, the Russian forces have gone in three different directions (West toward Kherson, North toward Zaporizhzhia and East toward Mariupol), so I believe this should be renamed to the "Crimea offensive". All three parts of this offensive were launched from Crimea, so it seems like a perfect name choice. Elijahandskip (talk) 06:33, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose The offensive isn’t in Crimea, and the proposal is confusable with the 2014 Crimea invasion and annexation. It started into and has been mainly in Kherson oblast. Maybe southern offensive might be suitable name, but either way needs some evidence about the name used in sources. —Michael Z. 07:04, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Adding (2022) at the end is an option, like the Kyiv offensive (2022). Elijahandskip (talk) 07:06, 2 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:OR. Jr8825  •  Talk  07:13, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose: No source uses such a name and it's far more than about Crimea. However I think "Southern Ukraine offensive" would a better name as it does not strictly concern Kherson Oblast. AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 07:26, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Withdrawing as I need to redo this with sources and a different name. Elijahandskip (talk) 07:26, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 March 2022
Please change "Russian forced had captured..." to "Russian forces had captured". Thanks. 2A02:AB04:2AB:700:CD6:4FDB:A01A:875A (talk) 19:01, 6 March 2022 (UTC)
 * ✅ Thank you for pointing it. Ridanbp (talk) 20:01, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Voznesensk

 * Militares ucranianos y rusos combaten en calles de la ciudad de Voznesensk--Raimundo57br (talk) 05:59, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 3 March 2022

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved to Southern Ukraine offensive. (Early WP:SNOW close per strong, unanimous consensus.) (non-admin closure) Jr8825  •  Talk  13:59, 10 March 2022 (UTC)

Kherson offensive → Southern Ukraine offensive – Per AbsolutelyFiring, this offensive is taking place in multiple regions/parts of Ukraine aside from Kherson so the present title is inaccurate. "Southern Ukraine offensive" is more accurate and still understandable, and consistent with other pages (e.g. Eastern Ukraine offensive). Dan the Animator 01:18, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Support: As already stated above Russia has or at least seems to have a single goal in attacking Ukraine on the south per reliable sources - cut it off from the sea. And multiple sources call the attacks in the south as part of one single offensive or axis of the campaign. AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 05:35, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Support For reasons stated above. ErieSwiftByrd (talk) 07:18, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Support For reasons stated above. If this achieves consensus, I think we do not need split this article into Kherson offensive and Zaporizhzhia offensive. --Paninigenie (talk) 08:52, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Support As stated above, the offensive is more far-reaching and this would be more consistent with the other areas. Kosack (talk) 09:08, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Speedy support as per the above section where I suggested it lol. Should be done asap. Curbon7 (talk) 01:33, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Support as per statements above. It's a better title. The axis in the south seems to be about more than just the capture of Kherson. RopeTricks (talk) 07:07, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Support as per the statement by AbsolutelyFiring.Thespearthrower (talk) 23:39, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Support Supports the WP:CRITERION of precision. —Michael Z. 00:06, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Support For reasons stated above by AbsolutelyFiring. Jibreel23 (talk) 03:01, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Support For reasons stated above. Ahendra (talk) 03:11, 5 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Support Better title encompassing all offesives in south. Will be do away with confusion in naming and continued expansion.- Nizil (talk) 06:50, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Support. More flexible wording to accommodate current and future activities. - Featous (talk) 16:14, 5 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Support It is a frontline offensive in Southern Ukraine. Felicia (talk) 02:35, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Support: This offensive clearly has more objectives than just Kherson Spaceman2288 (talk) 16:32, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Splitting proposal - Kherson offensive and Zaporizhzhia offensive
I am proposing to split the offensive article into two offensive articles; The '"Kherson offensive" and the "Zaporizhzhia offensive". Some sources refer to the "Zaporizhzhia region" instead of the "Kherson region" when referencing some of the battles near Zaporizhzhia. Others just refer to the "Zaporizhzhia region" when referring to battles nearby. I am going to list some sources to show this is not WP:OR. Daily Sabah - "Zaporizhzhia region", Crisis24 - "Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions", ABC News - "Zaporizhzhia region", Ukrinform.net - "Zaporizhzhia region", The Guardian - "Zaporizhzhia region".

According to the ABC News article, "Melitopol, a city in the Zaporizhzhia region", meaning the Battle of Melitopol would be considered part of the offensive. That would also mean the Siege of Enerhodar and Battle of Zaporizhzhia articles would be split into the new "Zaporizhzhia offensive" article.

That would leave Battle of Mykolaiv & Battle of Kherson in the "Kherson offensive" article. We would have to decide where to put the Battle of Berdiansk. But sources are indicating a new offensive region, so it is time to split the battles into their correct offensive articles. Elijahandskip (talk) 07:47, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Oppose: The reason they refer to specific regions because they're simply talking about the situation in them. No sources say there is a new offensive anywhere. WP:OR. I don't see any point in splitting it. And let's not create a logistical difficulty by orphaning Berdiansk. AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 08:57, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Addition: It also appears that the offensive in the south appears to be part of cutting off Ukraine entirely from the Black Sea. Also reliable sources refer to the south as part of one theater. I think this should be changed to "Southern Ukraine offensive".  AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 09:02, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I do not see your WP:OR claim. No sources directly say “Zaporizhzhia offensive”, but as far as I can tell, no sources talk about the Siege of Enerhodar and Battle of Zaporizhzhia, or Battle of Berdiansk as the “Kherson offensive” or “Kherson region”.  Multiple RS refer to the “Zaporizhzhia region” in reference to those battles, so clearly, it isn’t the same offensive, otherwise, RS would straight up say it is the same offensive or same region.
 * In addition to that, the source for the lead does not say “Kherson offensive”, but it says “Kherson region”, so any WP:OR argument on the name change would have to also state that this article was created on WP:OR. Elijahandskip (talk) 09:12, 2 March 2022 (UTC)
 * A source simply mentioning a region doesn't make it a separate offensive. That is WP:OR because offensives can take place in multiple areas. Besides try looking at the Battle of Melitopol. It began right on the first day of invasion and they travelled there from Crimea . The city is in Zaporizhzhia Oblast, so they have to go through Kherson Oblast. You can see the date - 24 February. The operations are part of one single offensive.
 * I agree that they aren't mentioned as part of "Kherson offensive", but they are mentioned as part of Russia's offensive in the south like Berdiansk . The Washington Post particularly states Russia opened a three front campaign- north, south, east . So I suggest renaming this as "Southern Ukraine offensive" like we have an Eastern Ukraine offensive. AbsolutelyFiring (talk) 09:48, 2 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose though probably a rename may be preferred. The Institute for the Study of War is considering this offensive 1 single axis. Curbon7 (talk) 01:18, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
 * eg, Southern Ukraine offensive. Curbon7 (talk) 01:18, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose per AbsolutelyFiring. Support page move. Dan the Animator 01:20, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose but support renaming to "Southern Ukraine offensive." I think that will resolve most potential confusion and the localized conflicts should be covered in their respective articles anyways. ErieSwiftByrd (talk) 07:17, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose at this time. It's possible that the Southern Offensive might split into two east/west offensives. But not yet. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:25, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose similar with Laurel Lodged reason above. Ahendra (talk) 20:16, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Withdrawn I forgot to withdraw this after the rename took place. Elijahandskip (talk) 00:47, 17 March 2022 (UTC)