Talk:Southern Victory/Archive 1

Terminology
This article should really use literary present terminology. 66.56.212.170 22:14, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

Why are we using this terminology? It's just a name invented by one fan on one yahoogroup. RickK 08:36, Apr 10, 2005 (UTC)

I was going to ask the same question. I've been reading Turtledove's books for years and this is the first time I've heard the term "Timeline-191". Also, I'd like to see the various short articles on characters and plotlines consolidated into the main article. That said, I like the article as a whole. MK2 04:47, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

I used the term TL-191 because, as far as I know, there isn't any official term for this storyline. Fans used to call it the Great War series, but that's been made obsolete by the American Empire and Settling Accounts trilogies, which take place in the same universe. I realize that using a fanon name isn't a great solution, but I don't see any real options. Some combination of Harry Turtledove and alternate history may make a serviceable title. Or we could just name it the How Few Remain series. Khanartist 20:56, 2005 May 19 (UTC)

While calling all of the books part of "the Great War" series might not be 100% accurate, I feel it's a better solution than making up a new name for the series. MK2 06:22, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Whatever the series is called, I appreciate that this page was made -- I'm three books behind and haven't seen the third book of the American Empire trilogy anywhere. At least now I know the series has continued. McGehee 04:23, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

American vs. US
The Feds, the Confederates, the Desereters (Deseretians?) are all American. In such a timeline, it would be likely that Canadians, Québecois, and even Mexicans are recogised as Americans, as they all inhabit the Americas. (I can't remember if it was the Great War series, or elsewhen where Confederates put up the objection that, as citizens of the Confederate States of America, they were also Americans) Should we switch over all references to Americans to US or Federal? samwaltz 11:53, 12 September 2005 (UTC)


 * The Federals should be referred to as Yankees or Feds. 132.205.46.166 22:08, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Still going through and doing occasional revisions. samwaltz 07:55, 18 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Guns of the SOuth Lee tells the Boer that he is an american and all Confeds are too.

Bearing in mind that in the 191 series, American is taken to mean a citizen of the USA, not the CSA, Canada or Mexico. CSA citizens refer to themselves as Americans, but the rest of the world calls them Confederates. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ghostface26 (talk • contribs) 04:36, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

We need a clean-up
While I like this series and have contributed to this article, I think it's clear we need a major clean-up. First, we need to come up with an overall name that's better than this invented one. Second, we should consolidate all the auxilary articles about fictional characters into a single article rather than a bunch of independant ones. Third, we should clean up the wiki links to real history articles that are talking about their alternative history counterparts. And fourth, we should do a complete overhaul of the article now that it's gotten so long. MK2 03:09, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
 * I've started on the revision by creating a Characters in the Southern Victory series article. MK2 21:27, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Can someone tell me why it's expected the series will continue past the '40s and how far past?--HistoricalPisces 19:26, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

New lists?
I would personally suggest a list of all major/minor cameos/references to historical figures in the series, as they can be quite hard to keep track of/remember/decipher.


 * See the Characters in the Southern Victory series article. GABaker 19:10 UTC 29 September 2005.


 * What about: Timeline 191's Common Characters ? 132.205.46.166 22:10, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

World War I Map
The World War I Map I think contains several errors (albeit relatively minor ones)


 * Mexico is on the Entente Side
 * Liberia and Haiti both side with the Central Powers
 * Italy is neutral
 * Paraguay is, I think, with the Central Powers


 * Italy is still wrong, it's showing up on Entente and they wre netural in timeline 191 [unlike ours]. Italy is not so minor because in our timline the Germans had to divert a couple of divisions in support of Austria-Hungrary. Jon 15:57, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Much more minor, but Libya should be in Gray as well. Are we even sure that in timeline 191 Italy conquers Libya at all? Jon 16:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)


 * If they didn't we would call it Tripoli and it would propably be Ottoman.


 * Hi, I have updated the WWI map with the following:

--Menah the Great 14:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Belize, Cayman Is. and other minor British posessions are now colored as Entente.
 * Portugal is on the Entente (in the previous map its colonies were, but the metropoli wasn't!) and the Kionga triangle is German (it went to Portugal in OTL Treaty of Versailles, but it appears as Portuguese in many maps).
 * Italy is neutral. Libia and the Dodecanese are colored neutral as events in Europe before 1914 are supposed to be exactly like in OTL (they were occupied by Italy in 1911).
 * Liberia is on the CP now.
 * Panama is still part of Colombia (as there is no US adventurism there nor Panama Canal in this TL) and the Virgin Islands are colored neutral as they still are Dannish territory.
 * Luxembourg is on the Entente.
 * Chilean and Brazilian islands show the CP colour now.


 * Many thanks. Perhaps you could look over the Tahu199397's newly created WW II map on that page; it appears to have a few errors relating to in OTL the Ottoman Empire being dismembered post WWI and that not happening in TL 191 along with Italy not electing a "adventurist" leader in TL 191 in the 30s unlike OTL. Thanks. Jon 21:17, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I have tried to make a GW2 map a couple of times but it is highly speculative outside of (North) America. The author never makes clear what happened with Africa after the war (apart that the Belgian Congo became a German colony), nor is it sure how the definitive looking of post-war Eastern Europe and Oceania look like.--Menah the Great 09:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Confusion over Japan
"To the surprise of the U.S. Navy, an assault on Midway Island revealed the Japanese had completely abandoned their garrison there. Many suspected the Japanese were concentrating their resources for an assault on British-held Malaya and Singapore. An amphibious assault on Wake Island some months later regained U.S. control of the island but also found no signs of the Japanese."

I'm confused. I was under the impression that the US, Germany and Austria-Hungary was opposed by the CSA, Britain, France, Russia and Japan - as such, why would the US find Japan building up to conquer Singapore and Hong Kong, considering that they were both British; Britain and Japan are allies, i thought. At least they were the first time around with the Battle of the Three Navies. Can someone more familiar with these series comment, or set the article straight? Thankyou in advance. 220.235.142.170 07:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

They weren't allies, they just followed a similiar warpath. Japan here in our world was allied with Great Britain for WWI, but took over their territories in the Pacific before and during WWII. Konrad13 00:20, 17 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Also, in this timeline, between the wars France sold all it's Indochina possesions to Japan largely because they were afraid if they didn't sell, Japan would take them anyway. It's still premature to say that Japan definately going to attack the UK in the middle of this war; that's only speculation from the US chars. It might be noteworthy that in our timeline, Japan abandonded the portion of the islands off the Alaskan coast it had taken early in the war. Jon 15:51, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Northern Maine
"Humiliating terms of surrender were placed on the United States, including the annexation of most of northern Maine to Canada."

It's my belief that the implication was that the British forced upon the Americans (er, well, the Yankees) the acceptance of the original British Claim of the Aroostook region. Obviously, I have no proof to offer, but if this is reasonable, I'd like to see this added to the article. 124.243.160.80 06:00, 11 October 2006 (UTC) (Actually KSHuntley, just haven't logged in)


 * Both "How Few Remain" and the maps at the front of each book in the Great War triology would appear to back this as being the portion of Maine orignially claimed by the British that was annexed. What's not quite clear is post Great War what was annexed back into Maine. (Just the portion annexed by the British? The US original claim the included parts of what is in our timeline Canada?) Jon 20:12, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Collection?
Is there a collection or box set of some kind that has all the current books?--HiroProtagonist 05:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Not that I'm aware of; but you can still buy all of them at once from any major online book store. Jon 15:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Kentucky State Police
Please join the Turtledove discussion at this article. Chris 16:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Interlude map
Can someone please make an interwar map (a map that shows the boundries after the Great War)? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Konrad13 (talk • contribs) 18:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC).


 * That might be difficult, because we don't know the new boundary between France & Germany nor the timeline 191s boundaries for Poland & Ukraine. And did France get to keep its African colonies or did they have to turn them over to Germany? And does Germany still have it's Pacific colonies or did Japan take them? Jon 16:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

It's remarked in the books that Germany annexed Luxembourg and the rest of Lorraine. Those are clearly defined areas, so they should be on the map. [unknown anon editor]


 * Luxembourg is so small it wouldn't be noticed on a world wide map such as the one we have for the Great War. I'm not sure how much there was left of Lorraine either. More noticeably though Beligum was annexed by Germany and the Belgian Congo became the German Congo. The Netherlands remained independent but also seem to have followen into the German orbit as well. Ireland (including our timeline's Northern Ireland) became an independent country heavilly proped up by both Germany & the US. However, as of "In of the Death" there is nothing to make it clear weather French North Africa is still controlled by France or not post Great War or not. "In of the Death" though did make it clear that the Russiaian empire lost aprox as much territory in TL 191 as our own in the Great War. (Poland, Ukraine, Finland, and the Baltic Republicans all become independent of Russia; but note that TL's 191 version of Poland does not include the parts than in our timeline were taken from Germany & the Austrian-Hungrain empire.) It's also repeatidly stated that the Ottoman Empire took genicide measures against the Aremenians, but it's not clear if the Ottoman Empire directly took over those states or instead established puppet states. Jon 13:52, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Flags
Are there accurate enough descriptions of the flags to create and upload them? samwaltz 01:22, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, there are several flags that did, indeed, exist in reality, if not at that time: Imperial Germany, Tsarist Russia, etc.etc. The Freedom Party symbol is described sufficiently-- the Confederate battle flag in reverse-- but it's the two normal American flags that are difficult. How many states do we have in the TL-191 US? How many stars and stripes should there be? And has it ever been mentioned what the stars and bars actually is?--Hexiva 19:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

"Stars and Bars" is the Confederate (historic) battle flag, as opposed to the "Stars and Stripes," the (historic)flag of the Union.

A difficult distinction, I admit, but an important one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.113.212.160 (talk) 12:27, 1 September 2007 (UTC)


 * In our timeline it's further confused by civilians regarding all versions of the US flag (both present and past) as the "Stars and Stripes". But actually American Front specifclly mentions the number of stars in the US early on. But for some reason this is one more star than what I got adding up the US states. Late in the Great War portion, the US flag gets increased by two more stars. (Houston & Kentucky). Late in American Empire both of those are returned to the CS but it's not clear if their stars got removed or not. And again during the later portion of Return Engaements Houston & Kentucky get revived as US states again. Jon 21:42, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Apparently the only nation in Europe that clearly changed its pre-GW flag was France, where the Action Française imposed a blue banner with 3 golden fleur-de-lis used by the Bourbon military in the 18th century.--Menah the Great 11:26, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Readability
I think I may be the only one who feels that the Timeline-191 Wikipedia page is better written than any of the books, save maybe the first one... Everyone did a good job here. Is there any room for criticism of the series or out-of-universe commentary? 65.96.127.134 (talk) 07:11, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * There'd be room for it, but it would have to be cited from appropriate sources. Providing our own commentary would be original research.  Binabik80 (talk) 18:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This page is way too detailed for Wikipedia. This article should be a timeline and general discussion of the series, not the plot summary to end all plot summaries. Most of this content should be moved to articles for individual books. And specific event articles like Barrel Roll Offensive should be merged away. Vagary (talk) 04:04, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have to agree with the above comment. This article would be better if it were a lot shorter. Xxanthippe (talk) 02:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC).

Cold War
Did anybody else get the impression that a sort of cold war was brewing between the U.S. and Japan at the very end of the series? It's been a while since I read the books but I thought I remember them talking about Japan trying to get nukes of their own and posing a further threat. I can't find much on this on the Internet but if there's a lot of corroboration then maybe there should be a sentence or two mentioning that in the aftermath of the wars. Not that I think Turtledove has any intention of continuing the series, but it still felt like he was foreshadowing future events in his alternate history. Mbarbier (talk) 04:56, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


 * There would indeed be a very high probability of a cold war between US & Japan. And Japan is almost certaintely going to try to get nukes. But they should have more difficulties than our USSR did in their stealing attempts. (C. 1945-1950 spies from the USSR could blend in with the American population a lot easier than Japanses spies.) In any case original research so can't be posted in the article. Jon (talk) 17:53, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

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Too much plot?
This article is WAY too much plot summary. Needs to be rewritten as an article about the series, not just a lengthy and detail oriented summary of the plot. Savidan 18:08, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Why? It covers eleven novels, at about the same length and level of detail per novel as several articles on individual novels I've seen. And any article about the series is either going to be the anathema "original research" or a useless collection of reviews available via websearch. Admittedly, plot summary is also available at http://turtledove.wikia.com/wiki/Harry_Turtledove_Wiki. GeorgeTSLC (talk) 21:43, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Too lengthy plot summaries
I realize the entire series is based on a decade of publishing ten books, but the summary is too long and detailed. There should be more of an overview, and comparisons to events related to historic figures and actions should be limited to major ones. I question whether that aspect can be adequately covered here without bogging down the article. Detailed coverage should be done in articles on individual books, if anyone is going to tackle that.Parkwells (talk) 19:08, 7 November 2013 (UTC)