Talk:Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina/Archive 5

Another reason for this being the worst article on Wikipedia
It's so unsourceable that it has to use WP mirrors as sources.Anonimu (talk) 14:24, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * ? Dc76\talk 14:52, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Probably that. Compare. --Illythr (talk) 15:06, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * that is also a random phrase that doesn't support what the article sentence says. --Illythr (talk) 15:08, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Is that a wiki? Dc76\talk 15:47, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Whatever it is (looks like someone's personal site), it copies the Wikipedia article (note the bold text where the wikilinks were). And a very early version of the article, at that. Definitely before autumn 2007, hehe.--Illythr (talk) 16:07, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not really following. What are these 2007 WP diffs show? You are loughing, but I miss the point. :-) If you think the site is wiki or a personal page, remove it. I know you would do that in good faith, so just go ahead. Dc76\talk 16:42, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You really don't see it? The page is a copy of an early version of the Bessarabia page from Wikipedia. It contains most of the text verbatim, even some Wikipedia templates are there, as well as wikilinks. I find it ironic that it was you who (eventually) removed the text in that article, and now you use an older version of the Bessarabia article to support the same phrase here ("(which was also occupied by the Soviet Union)" ). --Illythr (talk) 20:44, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
 * When I found this site, I was just googling, and ran into a number of links. I checked the main page of the site, as I usually do, and it did not arose any of my suspicions (it wasn't a blog, it wasn't an extremist site, it wasn't commercial). I didn't read everything the site contained to spot finer problems. "which was also occupied by the Soviet Union" is a phrase that can appear in 100 contexts in 1000 sites. If I removed it from somewhere, perhaps it was oddly phrased.
 * I believe the issue here is rather that we should try to rely mostly on scholarly sources. I am working on that. But you know, these books and papers takes a long time to read, especially when I also have to do many other things in real life. They spend 10-20 pages talking about some details that I really can use only 1-2 sentences, because the rest is super-detailed. So, in order to re-write a 2 page section I need to read with pencil and paper 300+ pages. There are many scholarly sources addressing specific issues, but few survey articles. On other topics, you can take 3-4 survey articles, and here you have in 5 days a WP article, potentially GA. Dc76\talk 08:01, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * To cut the long story short, sites that copy their information from Wikipedia are not allowed as WP:RS. Be more careful next time. --Illythr (talk) 10:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The guarantee of Romania's territorial integrity was given by France and Great Britain. --Deguef (talk) 10:16, 9 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deguef (talk • contribs) 10:11, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Proposition
I suggest a series of articles covering some of the material here and other similar articles (Igny (talk) 12:52, 18 May 2010 (UTC))
 * History of territorial changes of Romania
 * History of territorial changes of Soviet Union
 * Absurd. Solutions to a non-problem, moving the issue around, going in no constructive direction whatsoever, and entirely redundant. See also my comment above. Dahn (talk) 18:03, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I suppose it won't hurt anyone, if someone created an article about Romania's WW2 territorial changes using the article about Polish territories as a model AND sawed off the relevant redundant bits in all the articles about Romania's history. But I don't see how this proposal is applicable here - Olahus and MaGioZal are complaining about a different thing. --Illythr (talk) 18:47, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The current main article title is correct. However, subarticles would be better idea as the current article is too long. Peltimikko (talk) 22:11, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * i agree, this article is to long and there are to many chapters un subchapters. at least a new organization is needed, something more concentrated.Prometeu (talk) 22:32, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

POV title
occupation =/= annexation. It is very similar to calling Union of Bessarabia with Romania as "Romanian occupation of Bessarabia" on grounds that it was not recognized by the Soviet Union at the time. (Igny (talk) 04:47, 28 March 2010 (UTC))
 * The event itself was an occupation, which was immediately followed by an annexation. Focusing the article on the events of July-August 1940 should fix the problem. --Illythr (talk) 13:10, 28 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Either the scope or the title of this article or both are to be fixed. (Igny (talk) 13:23, 28 March 2010 (UTC))
 * I fully support your position. Although I'll abstain from mainspace action, since the last time I tried to fix this I got indef'd. Anonimu (talk) 13:26, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Thinking about it here… shouldn’t this article be named “Soviet occupation/invasion of northeastern Romania”? It should be a shorter, simple and more precise term, since the invasion also occupied a territory (the Hertza region) that was not part of Bessarabia nor Bukovina and was Romanian even before World War I (see Old Romanian Kingdom). To put a title like “Soviet occupation of Bessarabia, northern Bukovina and Hetrza region” would be too long.--MaGioZal (talk) 14:55, 11 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Switching to "invasion of northeastern Romania" won't solve the scope problem - Romania recognized these territories as Soviet by 1944/1947, but the article's current scope extends well into the '50s. --Illythr (talk) 02:26, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The article talks first about an event that began before 1944 and the subsequent recognition of the new borders by the Stalinist Eastern Bloc satellite Romanian government in 1947 — the 1940 invasion of the Soviet Army of the northeastern Romanian territories. Excluding the Soviet Union, all other countries in the world before World War II recognized all these invaded territories as legitimate parts of the Kingdom of Romania. Also, the only northeastern Romanian territory claimed by Moscow before WWII was the former Imperial Russian guberniya of Bessarabia, as we can see in this map: File:UkrainianSRRmap1933_whitebg.JPG. The Bukovina, as the same way that Transylvania, was part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, while the Hertza region was part of Romania since the 19th century.


 * So I think it would not be POV to call the whole of the three territories of the Kingdom of Romania invaded, occupied and annexed by the Soviet Union as “northeastern Romania” because in fact, until 1940 they were… Romanian and at the northeast of the country.--MaGioZal (talk)
 * Once again, the scope of this article is currently 1940-1953+ In order to rename it to "invasion of northeastern Romania" the scope will have to be shortened to the six days of the actual process in 1940 and the Jassy-Kishinev operation of August 1944.
 * Also, you got several things wrong. First, the corresponding article (recognition of borders) of the 1947 Treaty of Peace with Roumania was taken verbatim from the 1944 Armistice, signed by a non-Stalinist Romania (not that it had any choice, but it's strange that people keep mentioning this bit as if the 1944 Romania wouldn't have done it or something). Second, the only international document supporting Romania's claim to Bessarabia, the Treaty of Paris never came into force, so that "every other country in the world" is limited to France, Britain and Italy. Also, the actual invasion was canceled due to Romania agreeing to cede these territories peacefully, so only an occupation was conducted in June-July 1940 (compare with the events of August-September of 1944, which was a real invasion). --Illythr (talk) 01:44, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

The term "invasion" is proper. See a similar article: Soviet invasion of Poland. The Soviet troops didn't "occupy" only Bessarabia, but also Nothern Bukovina and the Hertza region. Even if Romania recognized many years later the loss of those territories, on the 28 June - 4 July 1940 it was an invasion that took place. Poland also recognized later the loss of it's Eastern territories, but nevertheless it was an invasion on 1 September 1939 - 6 October 1939. --Olahus (talk) 09:16, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


 * No, Romania recognized the loss of those territories some hours before the installation of Soviet administration began. The situation was more similar to the deployment of the Soviet Army in the Baltics, with the difference the status of Bessarabia was not unanimously internationally recognized.Anonimu (talk) 14:55, 15 May 2010 (UTC)


 * :The Soviet Polish campaign did include (a few) battles with Polish forces along the border and, more importantly, was not explicitly agreed to previously by the Polish side, as was the case with Romania. Also note that the scope of the article about the Soviet invasion of Poland is limited to September-October 1939 - the actual invasion; the rest is covered in History of Poland (1945–1989).--Illythr (talk) 15:40, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

The central point is not necessarily the “invasion/occupation” differences (and I put it clearly on my first intervention here — for me, if editors want to keep the “occupation” in the title, there’s no such big deal). The central points are:

1. Bessarabia joined Romania in 1918 — before the Treaty of Paris and before the consolidation of the Soviet Union;

2. The Treaty of Paris of 1920 wasn’t dependent of unanimous signing of the parts t exist; in fact, the two great European-World players, Britain and France, signed and recognized the annexation of Bessarabia into Romania (and the non-signing of the Treaty of Versailles by the United States did not mean it wasn’t implemented on Germany anyway). Other powers and other countries who signed most of the post-WWI peace treaties and became part of the League of Nations, AFAIK, did not express any opposition to the new Romanian borders — except the Soviet Union;

3. And the most important: the territory claimed by the Soviet Union before World War II did not match the territories conquered after 1940, as we can see in this Soviet map of Romania before Operation Barbarossa.

From Romania the Soviet Union claimed only Bessarabia (as we can see in this two articles from TIME Magazine from the 1920’s — in one of them, the mention of a never-kept Soviet promise by Litvinov to renounce Bessarabia). Though the Soviet Union occupied and annexed northern Bukovina and the Hertza according to the secret protocols of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, before 1939 no one in the world, Soviet Union included, claimed these two Romanian regions.

So… as the most important factor in common between Bessarabia, Hertza and Bukovina were they wer parts of Romania, I think the current title of the article is long, cumbersome and, most important, imprecise (since it doesn’t mention the Hertza region) and POV (since it regards all the regions occupied by the Red Army as previously disputed, which in fact they weren’t — only Bessarabia was questioned, and only by the Soviet Union.

That’s why I keep defending the change of the name of this article to Soviet occupation of northeastern Romania.--MaGioZal (talk) 05:23, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) Yes, the Sfatul Tarii voted to join Romania while Kishinev was occupied by Romanian troops. Not sure how this is supposed to support either point. One of the Times articles you link to here even talks about how this "seizure had no justification in international law" and so on.
 * 2) Yes it was dependent on ratification by all signatories. Citing Article 9: The present Treaty shall be ratified by the signatory Powers.[1]  It shall not come into force until after the deposit of these ratifications and from the coming into force of the Treaty signed by the Principal Allied and Associated Powers and Roumania on 9 December 1919.[2]
 * 3) This is the most significant argument - whether the tiny Hertza region warrants the title change or not. By the way, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact doesn't mention Bukovina and Herza either. Bukovina actually became a matter of diplomatic friction between Germany and USSR - the Soviet Union intended to annex the whole of it, but, due to German resistance limited itself only to the northern part.
 * So, please start a request for move instead of making unilateral changes. From you statements above it is clear that you don't know the history of that period very well and the change therefore requires the attention of a broader audience. Let's have a look at Google Books: "soviet occupation of bessarabia and northern bukovina" yields 19 results, "soviet occupation of northeastern Romania" yields none. Now that we're at it, "Soviet annexation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina" yields 56 sources - three times as many, so if the article should be renamed, it is to this name (it fits the scope better anyway). --Illythr (talk) 14:25, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fully agree with all of Illythr's points (see also .Anonimu (talk) 14:38, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Wow, identical in almost every detail! Looks like nobody's going to discover our mailing list, because we seem to be using some sort of really advanced brain-to-brain thought pooling software! o_O --Illythr (talk) 21:48, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

@Illythr: No, Illythr, Romania didn't recognize the loss of the Hertza-region. The Soviet troops shoot to the Romanian frontier-guards and advanced until Pomarla, which is even today a border point. There wasn't ever the talk about the Hertza-region. And concerning Northern Bukovina, Stalin didn't propose a certain border line to Romania. He wanted initially entire Bukovina, but after Germany's diplomatic intervention, they took only the north. However, the Soviet troops advanced as much as they could and the ceasefire line (and later the border) didn't respect the ethnic borders between the Romanians and Ukrainians in Bukovina (see this 1930-ethnic map with the latter borders). The Romanians of present-day Northern Bukovina didn't believe that the Soviets will occupy their localities too since they lived in localities with a Romanian absolute majority. Only the Western and Northern extremities of Bukovina had Ukrainian majorities, but not the environs of Storojinet and the areas south of Cernauti. The Romanians have been surprised that the Soviet troops didn't stop in Cernauti, but advanced further southwards in compact Romanian villages. Some of them tried to flee, some of them succeeded, other didn't (see the Fântâna Albă massacre). As I said, it wasn't just a simple "occupation", it was an aggression.--Olahus (talk) 14:39, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Another point that should be mentioned in the article (if we talk about an occupation) is that in 1944 (but before 23 August 1944), the Soviet troops advanced until the Piatra-Neamt - Iasi - line (see this map). And the Serpent island too, occupied in 1944, but annexed in 1948. --Olahus (talk) 14:45, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh, Jesus Christ up in heaven, are you people still having this conversation? Haven't all the ifs and buts of Romania's claim to have been fully united with Bessarabia and of the Soviet Union's claim to have ensured a legal transition of power been discussed to death by now? Hasn't it already been established that the title we already use is neutral enough? Must we fill every single frame of every single page with manifestos and essays about illegitimacy, and sophistry about how the speculation of wikipedia users can be more legitimate than historical discourse? And what kind of point is "occupation of northern Romania" ever gonna solve, unless it is to ignore the shaky status the 1918 union had, for all its worth, and to unwittingly leave the reader with the impression that this about the 1944 Soviet presence in actual northeastern Romania? Get real, gentlemen.
 * For the record, and for practical reasons, whatever the title is gonna be, I for one tend to agree that this article should be focused on the events, not the consequences over 40 years or so. Its description of the basic facts is already atrocious. Dahn (talk) 14:54, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I still believe that the current reverted title “Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina” is not precise and is not NPOV. And I could say more — the current title has a clear Soviet-Russian nationalist POV, since it somehow “detaches” Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina (and the non-mentioned Hertza region, Romanian since the 19th century) from the nation to they had effectively belong until 1940 — Romania.


 * To say that the regions occupied by the Red Army troops in 1940 were all “contested” and that “Bessarabia wasn’t really part of Romania during Interbellum” is like to say today that Crimea “is not a real part of Ukraine, but a part of Rossiya-Matushka snatched by that idiot revisionist Khrushchev” and that Estonia and Latvia “aren’t democracies but fascist dictatorships protected by the USA”.--MaGioZal (talk) 16:47, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * That is a perfect example of reading more into a title, and of projecting one's expectations into the title. For one, nobody should aim for exactitude once exactitude becomes ridiculous: so it might not include all the regions, so what? Under whose definition is this a problem? And how does replacing it with something even vaguer, and clearly more confusing, solve the supposed problem? And, incidentally, if you want to comment on the "Russian-Soviet POV", why not make the effort to note that most Romanian sources, even nationalist ones, also casually refer to this as being an occupation of "Basarabia şi Bucovina [de nord]"? How is simply being exact about the region proof of any POV? And lastly: the POV according to whuich the union was shaky may be favored by the "Soviet-Russian POV", if we have to use the label, but it factually was shaky - simply because the rest of the world didn't care enough to recognize it. The Romanian authorities were perfectly aware of that, reason why they spent the 1920s and '30s trying in vain to fix it - ignoring that, pretending that imagination somehow equates reality, is like saying that gravity don't work for people who want to flap their arms and fly.
 * Also, have you ever considered that, in addition to being cumbersome in the title (any title), Hertza region (which has its own article, btw) is not included because it is any case considered part of Bukovina, including by most Romanian voices? If it's a part of Bukovina and it's in the north, it's also a part of Northern Bukovina (which, like Northern Transylvania, didn't even exist as a reference until 1940!). So yes, it was occupied beyond the border agreed with the Soviets upon annexation. But this needs to be stamped ad nauseam, or advertised in the title, or turned into an artificial point of contention because?
 * I mean, isn't this article already touched by subjectivity, poor editing and unusual format preferences? Isn't it already bogged down by the inability of editors to look beyond their bias and the tactics they use to promote that bias? Must we turn everything into a small battle where an editor's POV or special concerns substitute what is relevant in the real world, not to mention what is practical?
 * Four more words and I for one am done discussing the title: "ain't. broke. don't. fix." Dahn (talk) 19:57, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * If you check out the other "Soviet occupation of" article, you'll see that this one's got it relatively easy. A common problem with them all is heavy redundancy. Here, for example, we have a lot of redundant content with History_of_Moldova, Moldovan SSR and Soviet deportations from Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina, with the latter specialized article being actually less developed than the corresponding section of this overview. --Illythr (talk) 21:48, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, I have not even begun to look into the other issues... I only decided to open the lid for a moment, because this surreal discussion caught my eye. Dahn (talk) 00:00, 17 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The point is that the current title implies the POV that the occupied territories were not Romanian before that. Just for comparing, people usually don’t say “Soviet occupation of Eastern Galicia and Volhynia” or “Soviet occupation of the Kresy”, but rather Soviet invasion of Poland (more details are on the article Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union).--MaGioZal (talk) 04:06, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Soviet invasion of Poland focuses on the actual military campaign, not on what happened during the next decade, as this article does. If we apply that article's focus to this one, it should be reduced to the six days of the Soviet "Pruth campaign" plus a paragraph or three about the next year. Besides, as I've demonstrated above, sources prefer the current form, differing only in "occupation/annexation" (19+56 to 0), making this whole thing a non-issue. Really now, who'd think to accuse the 1979 US Department of State of pro-Soviet bias? --Illythr (talk) 10:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * The piece of paper you’ve shown talks about a country called… Romania.--MaGioZal (talk) 13:40, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
 * First of all, there's nothing implying that the territories were not Romanian, because: a) it's the specific name of the regions as used by Romanians (I'm having deja vu here); b) it's just a goddamn name. And this is ignoring c), which is that, yes, they might have been within Romania's borders, but; and d), which is that there was an[other] occupation of northeastern Romania (the Iaşi area) in 1944. It's quite telling that nobody had a problem with the name until you advertised the "problem" here, and you only advertised that "problem" here because you interpreted something in the course of a conversation - you theorized that the name of page reflects a POV, even if this page was originally started, under this or a very similar name, by a user who admitted his pro-Romanian POV. In other words, you are making this title subject to your deductions from a discussion on the margin of this article. That is a surreal and quite trivial concern (and quite reminiscent of a common fallacy), so excuse me for not bothering with it anymore. Dahn (talk) 18:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)


 * @MaGioZal: I suggest to create a new article called Territories of Romania lost after WW2 (somewhat simmilar to Territories of Poland annexed by the Soviet Union and Former eastern territories of Germany) which would provide an overview of the territories in question (Cadrilater, Snake Island, Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina (+ Hertza region)). This article could be kept with this title, and included into a templatebox called "Territories...".
 * Having any such article under any circumstances is a bad idea, no matter if it was done before. Never mind that Illythr made a good point about redundancy (more articles on the same subjects won't help anyone), but we already see that all such articles only set up new battle grounds, move the issue around, and work well as display cases for people with irredanta on their minds. They are in fact the sectarian solution: "you create your wikipedia, we'll create ours", which is so against WP:NPOV it's not even funny. I recommend WP:BEANS here. Dahn (talk) 18:01, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

According to Title, an article title must be:


 * Recognizable – Using names and terms commonly used in reliable sources, and so likely to be recognized, for the topic of the article.
 * Easy to find – Using names and terms that readers are most likely to look for in order to find the article (and to which editors will most naturally link from other articles).
 * Precise – Using names and terms that are precise, but only as precise as is necessary to identify the topic of the article unambiguously.
 * Concise – Using names and terms that are brief and to the point. (Even when disambiguation is necessary, keep that part brief.)
 * Consistent – Using names and terms that follow the same pattern as those of other similar articles.

So… do you really think that for the average English-speaking Wikipedia reader the tilte “Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina” is shorter and more easy to understand than “Soviet occupation of northeastern Romania”? I do not think so.

Besides, comparing with the articles concerning the Soviet occupations of Finland, Poland and the Baltic States, the article in the way that is currently titled may concede to the POV that Stalin’s Soviet Union never occupied Romania, but only re-conquered the Romanian-occupied former Russian territories — wich is a great historical lie professed by the Moldovenist line of official Soviet historiography.

I suggest you to read this article from TIME Magazine, which states the following:

It was surprising that Russia's Premier Viacheslav Mikhailovich Molotov took no trouble to make King Carol's capitulation easy. On the contrary, he handed Rumanian Minister Gheorghe Davidescu a brusque note demanding Bessarabia and northern Bucovina within 24 hours. The ceding of northern Bucovina, which, unlike Bessarabia, Russia never owned, would repay Russia for waiting 20 years for Bessarabia, said Viacheslav Mikhailovich. When Minister Davidescu returned to ask for negotiations to determine the procedure of transfer, Premier Molotov said flatly that the Red Army would begin to move in at 2 that afternoon and gave the Rumanian Army four days to clear out of both provinces.

Over the Dnestr bridge and down from Galicia, the Red Army poured on schedule.It moved so fast that it soon caught up with retreating Rumanian soldiers. Rumanians who stopped to argue were shot. While King Carol ordered full mobilization to resist a Hungarian threat to his western frontier, Bucharest buzzed with rumors that the Red Army had overstepped its mark and was pouring into Old Rumania. Baby tanks crawled out of pregnant Red Army planes at Reni on the Danube, overcame the Rumanian garrison there before it could unstack its arms.* Presently, isolated units of the Rumanian Army began to resist and two trainloads of wounded Rumanian soldiers arrived in Bucharest. That, apparently, suited the Russians fine. It looked as if Russia wanted trouble more than she wanted territory.

And to end my argument, as you can see in this map, Hertza was not part of Bukovina.--MaGioZal (talk) 02:14, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Let's agree to disagree on he "I don't think so" parts of your comments, because, well, I still think so. (You could of course continue to ignore my points about why it is imprecise etc., but I think the other readers have had their opportunity to review them.)
 * If you continue to identify all comments opposing you with the "Moldovenist line", you're also not making much headway in making others take your comments seriously - your interpretation ignores basic facts about the name and its meaning, as well as the fact that editors on all sides simply disagree with this "need" you identify here. So does the terminology used by all sources, incidentally.
 * We agree on principle on all the issues concerning Hertza and its more abusive occupation (I believe I've said as much before you "sent me" to read the Time article), but your very theory about how this should also affect the "inaccurate" title is persistent, but still excessive, and still groundless. Let's also change the occupation of Poland article into something about Poland and Danzig - to show you just one obvious argument why not every detail needs to have a consequence in the title. It may, but frankly why? What other reason other than your conjectures about unrelated stuff must we take into account here?
 * As for Hertza and Bukovina: no accuracy is possible here, because we are talking about different interpretations of the same thing. Hertza has come to be popularly regarded as a part of Bukovina, just as Bukovina has come to be regarded as something other than the actual core region of Moldavia (which it was until the Austrians "abusively" carved it out). I meet such references to Hertza all over the place in Romanian works of scientific literature, but of course none of them make the abstruse political point we're supposed to be taking into consideration here.
 * We're flogging a dead horse. Dahn (talk) 23:05, 25 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the horse is very alive.


 * First, the Free City of Danzig, though protected by the League of Nations, was placed under final authority of Poland, which had military and external affairs control of the city (see Westerplatte). The only way for Hitler to invade and annex Danzig was to invade and control Poland itself. The rest is History.


 * Second, I never argued here for the current title to be changed into something like “Soviet occupation of Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and Hertza region”.


 * And third, the question remains: Do you really think that for the average English-speaking Wikipedia reader the tilte “Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina” is shorter and more easy to understand than “Soviet occupation of northeastern Romania”?--MaGioZal (talk) 18:39, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * First: so? We're talking geography here; your argument is so far the only one that states we should bother with anything else.
 * Second: nor did I imply you did.
 * Third: couldn't care less, not within the scope of any rational argument (outside of Simple English wikipedia, that is). The point is concocted, and the article would in any case have to address a reality that many (most?) users will not be familiar with - most users may not even know where exactly Romania is, for that matter. What's more, and this is something you persistently ignore, there was an actual Soviet occupation of northeastern Romania beyond B and NB, and beyond Hertza. It came in summer 1944.
 * Lastly: this terminology can't really be POVed if Romanian sources use it too.
 * Horse dead. Dahn (talk) 00:50, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually scholars prefer Soviet annexation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina or, even shorter Soviet annexation of Bessarabia. The article should be moved indeed, but according to current WP naming convention the new name should be one of these two.Anonimu (talk) 23:58, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Potato-potatoe, as far as I have a say. I guess it really depends on what we make this article about, and, as I have said, I find it diverts focus and overlaps with other articles if we make it about events after, say, 1944. It can talk about later developments without being about later developments. On the other hand, I do favor consistency, so as long as there are other "occupation of..." articles (justified or whatever), we could probably use a standard.
 * My belief is that neither "annexation" nor "occupation" are loaded terms in this case, as long as the article is based on sourced facts. Neither side of this obnoxious debate can really claim hat the other's preferred term is counterfactual. Flip a coin and let's get this over with. Dahn (talk) 00:50, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Occupation per se stopped once the first civil government was instituted (August 1940), which, at least partially, was formed by locals (not dissimilar to the Romanian administration in the 1920s I may say, but at least with nominal autonomy). Everything beyond this point is interpretation of what occupation "really" means. Annexation OTOH can describe all the events connected with the inclusion of this territory in the USSR (deportations et alia included), going all the way to the armistice of 1944, or, in extremis, to the 1947 peace treaty. As for you preference for consistency, it seems to be rather... inconsistent.
 * If we choose to ignore the policy that says we should follow reliable source, which in this case go for the annexation version at least 2:1, maybe.Anonimu (talk) 09:45, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * But it's not really me you have to persuade, is it? I'll go along with any of the two variants, as I think I have said just above. The need for changing the title still eludes me (as opposed to the possibility of changing it), but I shan't lose any sleep over it. Dahn (talk) 12:45, 28 May 2010 (UTC)


 * “most users may not even know where exactly Romania is, for that matter.”


 * I bet there’s a lot more people around the world that knows the name “Romania” than people who know “Bessarabia”, “Bukovina” or “Hertza”.


 * The question remains: According to Title policies, the tilte “Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina” is shorter and more easy to understand than “Soviet occupation of northeastern Romania”?.--MaGioZal (talk) 19:03, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Apparently, you're the only one who sees that as a relevant issue. Dahn (talk) 16:10, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * i think i agree with MaGioZal, the title should be confortable to all international users. everybody in romania and moldavia know about it. but nobody else know what bessarebia is or that it was taken as a result of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pactPrometeu (talk) 22:37, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

http://www.newsmoldova.md/newsline/20100824/188200126.html - here it says that the parliament of RM officialy condemned the consequence of M-R pact and also declared the teritory of RM occupied by mighty mother USSR. so it is not a POV title anymore as the representatives of the population consider it as occupation. i will rm the tag in a few days. thank you for your cooperation.Prometeu (talk) 21:42, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

dear anonimu, as i sad no population on earth would allow to be ruled by foreigners also it would not freely accept the "unification" (or dismemberment) of norther bessarabia, norther bukovina, south bukovina and part of transnistria to ukraine. it will also not allow the introduction of pseudo/micro-russification, colonizations, deportations, hunger end so on. if it was not occupation why did they invent the declaration of independence?Prometeu (talk) 18:35, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * dear Prometeu, let's not get down to political sophistry, as the things are not so easy as you try to present them. It all starts with the definition of foreigners. Let's take a real life situation, and say that foreigner means somebody who doens't share somebody's ethnic identification. You're asserting that populations like the Hungarians in Romania, or Gagauz and Russians in Moldova are actually occupied, as they would never allow themselves to be ruled by Romanians, respectively Moldovans. Even if we take the discussion to the 21st century, it would still imply that the population in most European countries could not be living on earth, as they couldn't allow themselves to be ruled, albeit indirectly (but notably similarly with the way things happened in the Soviet Union), by the "foreigners" in Bruxelles, Strasbourg et al. About the unification/dismemberment of Bessarabia: A large part of the population of Bessarabia didn't agree with the "unification" with Romania /dismemberment of the Russian Empire, and I can even say they were more vocal about their disagreement, considering the many revolts of the local population against the Romanian administration (as opposed to almost none during the rule of the Russian Empire or of the Ukrainian SSR and its successor). Following your logic, we can only say that the local population was also occupied. Moreover, it would mean that the Trans-dniester Republic is actually a legitimate attempt at sovereignty, as its population never freely accepted the unification with Cis-dniester Moldova/dismemberment of the Ukrainian SSR. Colonizations of population groups was an accepted practice well into the the second half of 20th century. Everybody practiced it, be it the Kingdom of Romania in interwar Dobruja, or Ceausescu's Romania in Hungarian-populated areas (not to talk about the English in the 19th century British Isles). Virtually every state in the New World is a result of colonization, yet, excepting some extremist, nobody claims these lands are occupied. Also, the settlement patterns in post-war Moldova can't be really considered a colonization. Otherwise, we would reach the conclusion that late 20th century migration amounted to a Turkish colonization of Germany, an Islamic colonization of France, or a Romanian colonization of Spain. About hunger: hunger was endemic in this region of Europe, so the Soviets surely did not introduce it. A huge famine hit Moldavia in the 17th century, and, as records multiply in the 19th century, we have several instances of Bessarabia being hit by drought, which led to hunger. A quite large Bessarabian famine even happened in the 1920s, helping the Soviets ferment the Tatar-Bunary revolt. The Soviet mismanagement of resources may have negatively affected the survival rate in the 1946/47 famine, but they did not cause it. The neighbouring Romanian region of Moldavia also witnessed it, and here there was no forced collectivisation, no deportations and no political repression of reactionary groups; yet the famine also made thousands of dead. When such events took place in Moldavia about 4 or 5 years later, no famine appeared, so the link between the stalinist oppression and the 1946/1947 events is pretty weak. To your final point: Why did the Trans-dniester invent a declaration of independence? Why did the Gagauz do it too (they eventually agreed to autonomy, but they did have their declaration of independence)? Why did the USA have a declaration of independence (they were colonists occupying Amerindian lands after they had dismembered Native American tribal territories, deported them or had them perish though hunger, foreigners ruling over Indian and African slaves and so on)? If your going to interpret history trough politics, Wikipedia surely isn't the place you should be.Anonimu (talk) 20:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

World War II
Bessarabia has been discussed at Talk:World War II recently. Editors with access to specialist sources may be able to help. -Chumchum7 (talk) 22:21, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

Attacks during withdrawal after ultimatum
June_1940_Soviet_Ultimatum doesn't mention these. Bessarabia says "The casualties reported by the Romanian Army during those seven days consisted of 356 officers and 42,876 soldiers dead or missing.", though it gives the wrong page number (actually page 242). More info, from page 243~245 of the same book/document: 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Google Translate]

Baidu Translate also works though can't include the text in the URL so you have to copy from the first link. Not pasting it here because most users would have to visit another site anyway due to not speaking Romanian, so it would just make discussion harder.

(I found that when translating, you have to change certain characters that show up incorrectly when copied and pasted. Easily done with find/replace all.)

"In Sea of ​​Azov, our troops were retreating temporarily left several officers and soldiers wounded. When they resumed their advance found mutilated terribly wounded. People who could have saved their gave the last sigh in agony. They were gouged out his eyes, they were cut tongue, nose, ears."

The figures on page 242 only say "killed or missing", while also giving a different figure for captured, but this part makes it clear that there were definitely many killed. 2601:600:8500:B2D9:550E:1A12:AF33:E2CF (talk) 19:45, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Recent edits by Anonimu
Anonimu is pushing a heavilly pro-soviet narrative. Can we get either a second editor to provide some balance, or something? It's pretty well-known that the Soviets weren't benevolent liberators whose only aim was to better the world. 65.209.62.115 (talk) 10:50, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Done. "Force the border" is confusing though, I had to read the other article to understand what it meant. 2601:600:8500:B2D9:550E:1A12:AF33:E2CF (talk) 19:45, 15 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The edit was reverted. Although I left a comment on the user's talk page, I am not reverting the change again (despite that Wikipedia's '3 revert rule' would benefit the original editor of a change as their first action does not count as a reversion, forcing discussion). The article used for many of the other massacres is in Romanian and I am too lazy to read it, and the other ~8 references are also in Romanian. 2601:600:8500:B2D9:550E:1A12:AF33:E2CF (talk) 22:51, 15 September 2015 (UTC)