Talk:Soviet ruble

Requested move



 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

PAGE MOVED per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 05:41, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Soviet Rouble → Soviet ruble — Standardization. Like Russian ruble. ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 10:04, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

Survey

 * ''Add  * Support   or   * Oppose   on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~.


 * Support (nominator)
 * The unit ruble should be lower case. It's a unit, like meter, not a proper name. See WikiProject Numismatics/Style.
 * The unit should be spelled ruble. And rouble is a variant of ruble. See definition of ruble at m-w and definition of rouble. The Bank of Russia also uses ruble. See.


 * Support   If thats the proper way to spell it I apoligise for moving it, but I was taught it was spelled rouble (probably cause i'm british).

Discussion

 * ''Add any additional comments:
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

What languages to include in the infobox?
Please discuss at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Numismatics. --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 04:06, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * It sounds cumbersome, but the ruble did have 15 official names, corresponding to the 15 languages of the union republics. Since it would be clearly unfair to pick and choose what to include in the infobox and what to leave out (who, after all, gets to say that Uzbek should be left out, but Ukrainian should be included?), I think either all 15 names or only Russian should be included. --Ericdn (talk) 15:35, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Ruble picture
The commons image dates it 1944 rather than 1924. Cyrillic? Which is the truest date? --  maxrspct  ping me  22:54, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Where does it say 1944? Are you referring to Image:Rubel 1924.png? --ChoChoPK (球球PK) (talk | contrib) 13:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Black market exchange rates
Does anyone know where to find information on black market ruble exchange rates during the Soviet era? This might be something worthy to add to the article. Esn (talk) 00:37, 1 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Would market raters from late Soviet era help? The market wasn't exactly black anymore, in that it was recognised that it exists, but it wasn't exactly legal, either. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 04:34, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * During perestroika in Moscow, I was personally quoted between 25-50:1 on the low end. At the high end, some were getting up to 200:1, but that was still rare at the time. Official exchange rate was 1:2 (two USD to the ruble). - Tenebris —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.156.74 (talk) 14:19, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Oversupply of interenterprise accounting roubles
One of the most peculiar characteristics of Soviet collapse was simultaneous inflation and shortage of cash. In most cases, inflation happens because of severe oversupply of cash. In case of Soviet rouble, cash was in short supply, and instead, inter-enterprise accounting roubles were oversupplied. Only after Perestroika made these two forms of roubles mutually convertible did hyperinflation of cash roubles become possible. Due to these unusual circumstances, it's important to clearly explain what was going on, or our reader might assume something more conventional -- such as irresponsible printing of cash, the process driving hyperinflation in Zimbabwe right now. ΔιγουρενΕμπρος! 04:34, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Rouble or ruble?
The article is entitled Ruble but in the second para the term Roubles is used. Surely we should be consistent? Headhitter (talk) 11:21, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Done. I also wonder what "virtual ruble" means. --illythr (talk) 21:34, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Finnish language in table
There is Finnish language in table. However, the explanation for the table is: The name of the currency in the languages of the 15 republics, in the order they appeared in the banknotes:

"in the order they appeared in the banknotes"? Sorry, but Finnish language did not appear in the banknotes. It can also be counted from the banknote in the infobox: there is 15 languages, while the has 16 languages. So Finnish should be removed from the table. I deleted it, but it was reverted. 82.141.116.89 (talk) 17:23, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Using Ctrl+F for the word "Finnish" in the article yields the following sentence: Finnish last appeared on 1947 banknotes since the Karelo-Finnish SSR was dissolved in 1956. --illythr (talk) 20:18, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


 * So, Finnish was at a time in the notes. However, just above the table, there reads: The name of the currency in the languages of the 15 republics, in the order they appeared in the banknotes. Would it be ok to just change "15" to "16", since there are 16 languages listed? 82.141.95.68 (talk) 05:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Official exchange rates
The article says "the currency was not internationally exchangeable" -- but then, in a seeming contradiction, it immediately gives a table of "Historical official exchange rates." Can we conclude that these "official exchange rates" were for propaganda purposes only? Novel compound (talk) 05:33, 22 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Ordinary ruble and kopek coins and bills as used by Soviet citizens usually had no ascertainable monetary value if taken outside the Soviet Union to Western countries, but when a Westerner entered the Soviet Union, then INTOURIST or whatever converted his Western currency to rubles at an official rate. There were various Units of account and quasi-monetary devices used for international trade, but these were not the same as ordinary ruble and kopek coins and bills as used by Soviet citizens... AnonMoos (talk) 17:14, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Two 10-ruble coins introduced in 1978 to commemorate the 1980 Summer Olympics
Those coins were not circulation coins. They are .900 silver collector coins and Olympics had whole set of silver, gold and platinum coins minted. Circulation had Olympic coins in 1 ruble nomination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.56.84.144 (talk) 17:50, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Requested move
I know this page has been moved before, but it seems eccentric to me that the official English language name of the currency is not used. The Soviet Union consistently used rouble in all of the English language publications and materials it produced, and a vast majority of sources contemporary to the time used "rouble" as well.

The earlier discussion cited Merriam Webster as though it is of greater notability than any other dictionary. Oxford, Collins and Chambers beg to differ. Oxford particularly has far greater worldwide recognition and use than Merriam Webster.

  

Neither is the "proper" way to spell it as English is a pluricentric language, therefore we ought to use the one that was officially used by the issuing party.TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 23:47, 26 June 2022 (UTC)


 * REJECTED. Ruble is an American spelling. The USSR, existing in the 20th c Cold War milieu, was covered intensively by Time Mag, The New York times, National Geographic, CNN etc, all of which propagated American 'ruble' convention. Switch intensively to 'rouble' and it puts you at odds with the predominant literature. And with this, best to stay with 'Russian ruble' and 'Imperial ruble' for consistency. You're free to create various 'rouble' sites for redirection to 'ruble'. Thank you. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 00:10, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Results of quick online scan: 1. Russian Central Bank article "ruble". I'll assume Russia is mixed bag ruble or rouble. https://www.cbr.ru/eng/press/event/?id=13951 2. Online British sources attest it's also mixed bag, but rouble more common than ruble 3. Americans consistently spell ruble with no exceptions. I guess ruble wins :) Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 00:29, 27 June 2022 (UTC)


 * This article is not about the modern Russian currency, but about the Soviet currency. Soviet sources always used "rouble", even publications intended for the American market otherwise using American English. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 00:31, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Insisting Russian ruble was preceded by Soviet rouble would create a real oddball. Add to that post-1945 media torch passed from UK to USA, that's how the consensus for ruble was arrived at. Whether prior move request or this new one. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 00:37, 27 June 2022 (UTC)


 * As 'ruble' is deemed acceptable in the USA and internationally, but 'rouble' is NEVER accepted in the USA, it's ruble for the consensus single spelling, the never-accepted spelling can never be insisted for WP:CON. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 00:51, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * If it is "never accepted" why did Congress use it in official publications? TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 01:15, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * On one hand I've never read it. On the other hand I've never seen 'rouble' in The New York Times, Time Mag, Newsweek, National Geographic etc. Let's consider 'ruble' to be settled issue here on the 2006 'Requested move 1'. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 01:29, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Time Magazine:
 * I would say it is far from settled. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 01:38, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * @John Maynard Friedman please advise here if it's even possible to reverse 2006 consensus (see above) to name this article 'Soviet ruble' (not rouble). Thanks. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 01:44, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * My contention is merely that the enormous quantity of literature produced over the decades that the Soviet rouble was in circulation vastly outweighs a the spelling by a dictionary not widely used outside of the United States, especially as the issuing party itself did not use the spelling. You used the same argument yourself over at Finnish markka. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 02:04, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Finnish Markka (not Mark) formal introduction was pretty much across the board: Finlands Bank, European Central Bank and even BBC, CNN, New York Times etc. Versus today's 'ruble' in the likes of NYT, CNN, NatGeo and now even Russian Central Bank uses 'ruble'.
 * Being a difficult topic, the 2006 debate duly consulted various parties on this and they arrived at 'ruble'. And it's not within my powers to reverse this outcome.
 * Dunno what's the penalty to reversing a settled decision like this. You'll very likely be banned. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 02:15, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * But this is not about the modern Russian currency, this is about the SOVIET currency. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 02:19, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Also, passive aggression is not a good look. There are ongoing debates about the names of articles all the time, all I did was bring up the fact nobody had talked about it for 16 years when there are good reasons to consider it. It was "settled" by using a dictionary and not actual instances of use, and one of the people involved merely went along with that despite misgivings. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 02:20, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I would also like to draw attention to WP:RMCOMMENT, specifically the warning against proof by assertion. I wanted to have a reasoned evidence based discussion. In 2006 many of the resources we now have at our disposal were not available online: books that had not been digitised and so on. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 02:40, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

We definitely need a WP:3O here, this is going nowhere otherwise.TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 02:50, 27 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Here are some articles from the New York Times using "rouble"..
 * Will you please at least look at the sources I'm providing? Otherwise its just an assertion in support of a decision reached that might not have had the full body of evidence on hand. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 03:00, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Above Talk:Soviet ruble constitutes prima facie evidence of WP:CON arrived on this - move it to Soviet ruble and no more discussions. Breaking this WP:CON is a terrific way of getting WP:BAN. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 06:02, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * WP:CON warns against trying to change a recently established consensus, 16 years ago is not recent. According to WP:CCC arguments and information not raised in the original may be brought to the table by editors. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 07:01, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

My third opinion fwiw. It seems clear to me that WP:ENVAR and MOS:RETAIN apply. The difference is not a material one, there is no risk of misdirection. Either spelling will find the article and the opening sentence can give both spellings. The game is not worth the candle. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 10:26, 27 June 2022 (UTC)


 * In the U.S., "rouble" would be considered a historical or distinctly old-fashioned spelling, and it's been that way for at least the last 50 years. "Rouble" is really a French transcription.  We occasionally use French transcriptions in English (see the "T" in "Tchaikovsky") but their use has been declining over time, and I don't really see the purpose of reviving "rouble" now... AnonMoos (talk) 11:16, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The reason I feel "rouble" is more appropriate for the Soviet currency is that it is the transcription the Soviets used themselves in the English material they produced. According to MOS:ARTCON Wikipedia prefers no national variety of English, and that proper names should use the subject's own spelling. Another example of this convention in Wikipedia is "defence" vs. "defense" in the names of organisations. If the organisation itself uses "defense" as the official translation, that is the name the article uses. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 13:29, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * You're missing my point -- there is no Soviet national variety of English compared to the Canadian etc. national variety of English, so Wikipedia national variety of English policies simply do not apply.  However "Common Name" most definitely does apply... AnonMoos (talk) 23:08, 30 June 2022 (UTC)


 * With 2006 WP:CON firmly in place, what you feel about "rouble" is exactly just that... Feelings... nothing more than feelings... woe woe woe feelings...  Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 20:57, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Now you're just being childish. I have offered up many examples, including current usage no less by Russian government sources. I suppose you also want to retitle all those articles using the word "defence" to match American spelling as well. Cited sources are not mere "feelings" just because you disagree with them. The only source cited in 2006 was a single dictionary, so far I have cited no less than 35 sources. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Pursuing suggestions to write consistent with milieu, proposeth thee to write William the Conqueror artickle in Old English? ET IVLIVS CAESAR EN LATIN? Practible it maketh not. But MMVI WP:CON achieveth and Soviet ruble declareth it to be. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 01:04, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Now you are just being facetious in your refusal to consider any source beyond one dictionary entry posted over 15 years ago. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 01:25, 28 June 2022 (UTC)


 * TheCurrencyGuy --There's no meaningful "Soviet" variety of English, in the same sense that there are UK, American, Canadian, Australian etc. varieties of English. Also, Wikipedia often prefers the "common name" over what might be considered most theoretically correct.. AnonMoos (talk) 22:02, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The Soviet Union did use consistent spellings and formatting in its English publications. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 23:06, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

It's moot upholding the (spelling) preferences of an entity which has ceased to exist. There's just its official successor state Russia which willed we call their past currency as Soviet RUBLE. And in case link below is still relevant for settling SUR dues from decades past, it's best to issue the check in RUBLES lest you risk a bouncing cheque in Roubles. http://www.cbr.ru/eng/currency_base/gosbankcurs/ Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 14:36, 27 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Not only did the entity cease to exist, but the currency ceased to exist as well (the old Soviet rouble was replaced by a new currency in 1998 at a rate of 1,000 to 1), this is a historical article about a historical currency of a historical country so it would be counterfactual to use language they themselves never used.
 * In any case, Goznak, the company which produces Russia's banknotes and coins, exclusively uses "rouble". According to the official translation of the Constitution of the Russian Federation - Article 75, the currency of Russia is the "rouble". Searching the English website of the Government of Russia shows that "rouble" is vastly preferred to "ruble". TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 16:03, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Survey results so far are Rouble-Ruble-no preference-Ruble. So Ruble wins 2-1. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 03:45, 28 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Would it be possible for you to actually forward your viewpoint with reasoned logic and citations rather than emotive language, bold assertions and belittling behaviour? TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 05:49, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Thank you for sending me to WP:ANI for complaints - here's what I replied to them on all the currency page vandalisms you've done so far.
 * Complainant questions the finality of WP:CON arrived at in 2006 to finalize Talk:Soviet ruble which goes against what he wants 'rouble'. I can't answer how to reverse 'ruble' consensus and complainant piles pressure to get his way.
 * Complainant even wants a wipeout of the history of the pound sterling in Talk:Banknotes of the pound sterling by making "sterling", "banknotes of sterling" etc the final page names of "pound sterling" and "banknotes of the pound stering". Completely ignoring to billions worldwide that British currency is most famously known as the "pound".
 * So complainant wants to engage in historical revisionism by wiping out "pound sterling" and "ruble" from Wiki vocabulary. He wants "sterling" so Wikipedia sticks out like a sore thumb in the Google Search "What is British Currency"? And "ruble" for refusing to acknowledge the end of Pax Britannia.
 * Isn't it the pettiest of revisionisms to force to audience an unfamiliar word "sterling" and to force that "o" in "ruble"? Wiki audience declared "ruble" final in 2006 as per Talk:Soviet ruble consensus. Faced with an impossible task and an incessant pressure campaign, can I be blamed for running around the circles until complainant realizes the futility of it all?
 * And do look at complainant's recent edits re: Reichsmark symbol. What is his right to make dozens of Wiki pages look like an unreadable 1940 book with that Reichsmark symbol - without WP:CON ? All those unsolicited edits deserve a citation at the very least. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 07:20, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * This type of behaviour is not helping your case whatsoever. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 10:37, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I only recall it being spelled as "ruble", in english. GoodDay (talk) 15:25, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Can we get things back on track?
I am happy to continue the discussion, provided things remain civil and do not degenerate into baseless accusations, name-calling and ridicule. I do still believe there is a strong case to be made in favour of this change, particulary use by Goznak, the Government of Russia and the Constitution of the Russian Federation. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 12:49, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I've only ever seen it spelled as "ruble", in english. GoodDay (talk) 15:25, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 * And I've only ever seen it spelled as "rouble", in English. Bazza (talk) 08:50, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * OPPOSE. MOS:RETAIN "RUBLE". It's wasteful to even think of overturning final 2006 WP:CON consensus which preferred 'ruble'. The whole process requires contacting previous admins who will yield archives of the 2006 discussion and arrival of consensus. Only to get extra 'o' as reward for all the needed work? Here's what people said in Talk:Soviet ruble
 * It seems clear to me that WP:ENVAR and MOS:RETAIN apply. The difference is not a material one, there is no risk of misdirection. Either spelling will find the article and the opening sentence can give both spellings. The game is not worth the candle.
 * Russia, the USSR's successor state, refers to Soviet & Russian currencies as RUBLE. "Soviet ruble (not rouble)" exchange rates are produced to this day http://www.cbr.ru/eng/currency_base/gosbankcurs/
 * In the U.S., "rouble" would be considered a historical or distinctly old-fashioned spelling, and it's been that way for at least the last 50 years.
 * I've only ever seen it spelled as "ruble", in english.
 * And no need for all these troubles when there won't be any new documents, records, files etc that will need Soviet 'roubles'. And in those rarest of instance 'rubles' will work as fine. Thanks and vote OPPOSE. Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 20:11, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
 * The official English translation of the Constitution of the Russian Federation, the Russian state mint and the Government of Russia all show a marked preference for "rouble" while the Bank of Russia has no preference, using both at about a 50/50 ratio. The preference of American sources is immaterial given Wikipedia's stance on national varieties of English, using the form of English the party being described uses as their official translation. The Russian Federation uses Ministry of Defence while the Soviet Union used Ministry of Defense, neither is more correct as they were proclaimed by the bodies being covered as their official English names. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 01:02, 30 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Best to keep using Soviet ruble. GoodDay (talk) 04:10, 30 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi all, RFC proponent was just caught in sockpuppetry incident here Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents
 * @TheCurrencyGuy requested closure of the other RFC where he's being investigated. We will understand it to mean 'Soviet Ruble' RFC is closed too and will not be pursued further. Thanks for your attention.
 * Proposed name change to SOVIET ROUBLE hereby REJECTED. CASE CLOSED.
 * Oppa gangnam psy (talk) 05:45, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
 * You are pathologically obsessed with me. TheCurrencyGuy (talk) 05:47, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Stalin was not leader in the mid-1920s
The section on the "Fourth Soviet ruble, 7 March 1924 – 1947" has "After Joseph Stalin's consolidation of power following the death of Lenin, a final redenomination occurred which replaced all previously issued currencies. The fourth Soviet ruble was equal to 50,000 rubles of the third issue...". Stalin had not consolidated power in 1924; this occurred later in the 1920s. Mentioning Stalin as Soviet leader in this context is incorrect and misleading.

The subsequent phrase "Stalin failed to maintain the ruble's value versus the gold ruble as early as 1925..." is not just misleading but outright wrong. Stalin was not in charge in 1925, Communist factions were still contending over which would control the Communist Party and thus the Soviet government. (Other Wikipedia articles on the USSR and Stalin get this correctly.) The lack of accuracy on this point calls into question the accuracy of the rest of the article on the Soviet ruble. Johnmastell (talk) 23:31, 17 January 2023 (UTC)


 * Previously discussed at Talk:Soviet_Union/Archive_18... AnonMoos (talk) 23:16, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Soviet Rbl
An editor (presumably TCG) argued that "Rbl" is the sign of the Soviet ruble, citing a document at an earthquake-related conference and a book on communist countries as source. However, both times around, there is a canned search for "Rbls rouble" without quotes. Therefore, I think it might be TCG cherry-picking sources that support them. NotReallySoroka (talk) 08:50, 20 February 2023 (UTC)


 * I have since sent this issue to No original research/noticeboard. NotReallySoroka (talk) 14:32, 30 March 2023 (UTC)