Talk:Soviet support for Iran during the Iran–Iraq war

Answer to bot copyvio accusation
The section in question, from the Arms Control Association, was paraphrased at length and meets fair use; unfortunately, the wrong version was copied from a draft that contained working notes.

Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 18:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Original research
This article looks like a badly-written essay full of original research and irrelevant content. Iran-Russia relation since 1989 have nothing to do with Iran-Iraq war. USSR was a backer of Iraq, if USSR supported Iran during the Iran-Iraq war, then provide sources saying so in the context of the war, and list the nature and extent of the support DURING the war, and please keep the focus on Iran-Iraq war.--CreazySuit (talk) 05:06, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Those will be provided. Unfortunately, this article was posted from the wrong draft. I've put up an "under construction tag," and simply ask for a few days to get in the correct sourcing. I am currently going through a very large and relevant body of materials that do contain support. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 13:01, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, I'm confused too. Soviet support for Iran during the Iran-Iraq War? The USSR was the leading supplier of arms to Saddam Hussein, why would they be helping Khomeini? The Soviets had plenty of reasons to fear an Islamist Iran: the USSR had a huge Muslim population; the two countries also shared a border, splitting Azerbaijan between them; the Soviets were fighting a war in Afghanistan, Iran's neighbour and traditionally within the Iranian sphere of influence. The Iranians had a long history of fearing Russian/Soviet ambitions on their territory (see the Great Game and the Iran crisis of 1946 for details). All these things led the Soviets to give massive support to Iraq against Iran. We really need to see some solid evidence that the Soviets did in fact supply arms to Iran during the Iran-Iraq War and if so - and this is the important bit - why? --Folantin (talk) 11:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I believe that evidence exists, and can be sourced. I say that without disagreeing with your general assessment that the Soviets principally supported Iraq, not Iran. The reasons for limited Soviet support of Iran, just as there was limited US support of Iran (e.g., Iran-Contra Affair) were often more related to other great power interests, and a hedging of bets to retain some influence if Iran became dominant. As I said to Creazy Suit, I ask for a few days of construction and comment. I ask this since there are other contributions that I made that seem to be better accepted as well sourced. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 13:01, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I've been reading the chapter on the USSR and the Iran-Iraq War in The Iran-Iraq War: The Politics of Aggression ed. Farhang Rajaee (University of Florida Press, 1993). Judging from that, there is no evidence that the Soviet Union ever provided support to Iran during the war. According to the book, Soviet policy was divided into three periods: (a) "Strict neutrality" 1980-82; (b) "Active neutrality" 1982-86, during which they supplied arms to Iraq to counter Iranian successes; and (c) "Active containment" 1986-88, when Gorbachev, worried by the threat of an Iraqi collapse and about what would happen to Afghanistan after Soviet withdrawal, greatly increased arms supplies to Saddam. --Folantin (talk) 13:20, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem is that some editors here have a misguided view of NPOV, and think that just because there is an article about country X notably supporting one side of the Iran-Iraq war, there automatically has to be another article about country X also "supporting" the other side for the "sake of NPOV", even if it means violating other Wikipedia policies and restoring to original research, fringe theories, essay-writing and POV-forking. (another examples: )--CreazySuit (talk) 18:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * If that's the problem, please take it to mediation or arbitration. Whether you intend it or not, your statement suggests you have the only correct POV and the only correct interpretation of Wikipedia policies. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 18:11, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Dubious use of sources
Further to the above, the sources don't back what the article says:
 * The Eisenstadt document agrees with my comments above: "However, following Iran's 1979 Islamic revolution, relations grew strained. The Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini—who reviled both the Soviet Union and the United States—pursued a foreign policy of "neither East nor West" that put Moscow at arms length. For its part, Moscow feared that Tehran would export its Islamic revolution to the Muslims of the Soviet Union". The next paragraph goes on to say that it was only in 1989 that relations between Iran and the USSR really thawed and a major arms agreement was made.


 * We aren't in disagreement about the substance, but I think the Soviet concern is significant. Had the USSR been completely neutral, it would not have explored Iranian positions. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 02:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The National Intelligence Council says: "Iran's armament strategy, which actually began in the mid-1980s, heavily depended on imports and especially those from the Soviet Union, in order to achieve some kind of parity with Iraq and Saudi Arabia". So far, so good, but if you look at the footnote provided (number 19) it says: "During the period 1988-1992, the Soviet Union provided about 50% of Iran's imports as measured by expenditure". 1988-1992 is obviously after the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq War had finished. (NB: as a sidenote, I find it hard to imagine the Soviet Union supplying anyone with arms in 1992).


 * I agree there are some inconsistencies, but it is a starting point to understand the armament strategy that began in the mid-80s, during the war. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 02:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The "OIA" source says nothing relevant to this issue, as far as I can see. --Folantin (talk) 11:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It applies as a description of the export control system under the Soviet Untion. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 02:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Fukuyama: one brief mention of Iran among other Middle Eastern countries. No reference to the Iran-Iraq War. More importantly, this was published in June 1989, almost a year after the end of the war. Soviet-Iranian relations improved significantly in 1989: the Iran-Iraq War was over, the Soviets had withdrawn from Afghanistan and Ayatollah Khomeini was dead. This has no bearing on an article about Soviet support for Iran during the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq War. --Folantin (talk) 14:58, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm going to ask for Wikipedia good faith assumption here, since I've said I am actively working on it. It is not helpful to have you criticizing while I am working. For example, I did, indeed, put in one Fukuyama reference from a good deal larger book, with more information.


 * Apropos of books, I have published several, and your claim about the publication date of June 1989 saying the focus is on a later period than the war is not realistic given publishing. The writing of a book is often finished quite some number of months before the copyright, so the work may well be focused more on 1988 and earlier. Politely, I will ask you to slow down the BITEing. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 15:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

External links modified
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