Talk:Space Western/Archive 1

can we kill the merge tags?

 * I think that, with the "differences" sections firmly in place, it's pretty easy to see that these are not the same thing. Can we get rid of the tags? They aren't appropriate. - Che Nuevara  17:31, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree --Cybersavior 23:54, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Thirded. hateless 17:52, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. Taking action :) - Che Nuevara  17:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Why is Wild ARMS here?
According to the "Differences" section:


 * Space western differs from Western science fiction in that it has Western frontier themes in an Outer space setting rather than Science fiction themes in a Western setting.

The Wild ARMs series already appears under Science fiction Western, and that is consistent with the explanation of the difference.
 * Laserion 01:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Huh? Wild ARMs has Western themes in an outer space setting; therefore it is a "space Western" and belongs here. Ken Arromdee 20:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Oddworld?
Pardon me for saying so (I havn't played the game in a long time), but I don't see why Oddworld:Stranger's Wrath is on here. It doesn't even take place in space! I mean, I could see how it's a Western, but Space Western is a whole different story...Beep Beep Honk Honk 02:50, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Knights of Cydonia
Should the "Knights of Cydonia" music video be included in this article? StevePrutz 19:57, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Any sources?
Has anyone bothered to see when and how the term originated? Or who, if anyone, uses it? The OED "Science Fiction Citations" site doesn't include the term. Google returns some hits, but not of the term as a genre descriptor used by commentators or scholars. Fan usage isn't enough--it needs to be a live term in the published record. Without something along these lines, it looks like a non-notable or non-standard term, and the material here is original research. RLetson 05:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree. It seems like a neologism to me.SharkD 03:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Examples
Should ANIME be its own section under the Examples area? I think not. They need to be distributed under Films and TV. StevePrutz 17:04, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point. - Che Nuevara 20:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree. I think you should leave it as it is. SharkD 00:50, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
 * As concerns English-speaking audiences, anime is not really a medium. - Che Nuevara 19:09, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Trigun
Can we get the issue of Trigun sorted out? It looks to me like this is a fairly good example of a Science fiction Western, i.e., "a work of fiction which has elements of science fiction in a Western setting." But, I see no indication that it is a Space Western. I would like to have the matter settled so that people will stop adding it to the article. Anyone with thoughts? --- RepublicanJacobite  The'FortyFive'  15:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Although I'm only tangentially familiar with the series, it seems to me that the series has nothing to do with space -- there is no space travel and the series takes place entirely on one planet. Thus it is not in a "space setting". It is in a "Western setting", a Western-esque planet which just so happens to not be called Earth, but Gunsmoke. (For all we know, it could even be a post-Apocalyptic Earth, right?) So I agree with RepublicanJacobite that it's clearly a Western SciFi and not a Space Western. - Revolving Bugbear  17:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Without spoiling things too badly, the planet Trigun takes place on is not earth, and earth exists (or existed) in the Trigun universe. Humans travelled to Gunsmoke by space travel. The problem here is that (despite what the Wikipedia articles say) the definitions of space western and science fiction western are not clearly mutually exclusive. Space western is described as "transposing themes of American Western books and film to a backdrop of futuristic space frontiers" while sci-fi western "has elements of science fiction in a Western setting". Trigun definitely has western themes: struggling with a new and alien environment after migration, subjecting/exploiting native people (or species in Trigun's case), traveling bands of bandits... not to mention many characteristics and conventions; (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_%28genre%29) Vash, as the good guy, has a white gun. Knives, the bad guy, a black one. Showdowns start with two people standing in front of each other with hands on their holstered guns, etc. etc. That's the space western's western themes. The space frontier: Trigun takes place on an alien planet mankind only recently settled on. The story begins, chronologically, in a spaceship looking for hospitable planets. But Trigun also has both given properties of a sci-fi western. It has sci-fi elements (aliens, space travel, advanced technology) in a western(-like) setting: sand, guns, bandits, sheriffs. All that's missing is indians/mexicans (saying the Plants take the role of indians may thematically be sort of correct, but they do not wear feathers and don't hunt buffalos), which makes sense since the story simply and unambiguously does not take place in our past in north america but in the future after mankind travelled into space. In closing, Trigun fits both bills partially. Unlike a space western, it does not involve the hero getting on a spaceship (it does show him getting off, however) and unlike a sci-fi western it does not take place in a western setting with sci-fi elements jutted in. Dilemma! 130.89.228.82 (talk) 00:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * They key part of the phrase, here, is "Western". Science fiction Westerns take place in the West. The American West. In the U.S.A.. On Earth. E.g., not Gunsmoke. Why is this so f****** hard to understand? SharkD (talk) 06:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The anonymous IP's argument is both reasonable and civil. Yours is uncivil and unnecessarily confrontational. Please take it down a notch.
 * That being said, it seems reasonable to me, given the IP's explanation, to let the inclusion stand. - Revolving Bugbear  17:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The fact that it takes place on an extraterrestrial planet is an automatic pass for the classification, "Outer Space setting". SharkD (talk) 20:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)


 * The problem with the Space Western and Science fiction Western articles is that neither provide reliable sources for their definition; it seems to a definition born out of consensus. I must admit, I have my own interpretation of what makes a Space Western (partly because I haven't found a reliable definition elsewhere) and it includes the anime Macross Plus. Like RepublicanJacobite, I'm of the persuasion that Trigun is not a Space Western for reasons I outlined in that article's talk page. My suggestion: say it's a Weird Western and call it a day.--Nohansen (talk) 23:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Influences
since westerns are influenced by Samurai films, Space westerns are influenced by Samurai films. This is shown by design features in both Star Wars, where the Jedi knights are more like samurai than cowboys, and Firefly, which combines both Asian and Western influences. Also, it should be compared to other sci-fi, which is traditionally a social commentary(something true of star trek, although it is listed here as a space western), as apposed to action oriented. Rds865 (talk) 02:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Trigun on this page
The page used to say: In other cases, only some places in the world have a Western feel, such as Planet Gunsmoke in Trigun

However, planet Gunsmoke is where all of Trigun takes place. (alright there are some flashbacks to the time humans were searching for a habitable planet while on a spaceship with all but a few humans in stasis - however this technology of space travel has been lost in the now of the series and it really just takes place on planet Gunsmoke).

I changed the sentence into: In other cases, only some places in the world have a Western feel.

This is far from optimal, and I propose getting a new example there (but a correct one while we're at it). I just don't happen to have an example ready. I realise that the sentence would best be rewritten if no example is inserted, but I left it like this for now as I think a new example is the better alternative. My name is Jasper (talk) 01:16, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Cites
This article is desperately in need of some, there's precious little here that isn't OR. Alastairward (talk) 21:41, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Alternate term
I always thought of the genre as "Space Cowboy" myself. Dread Lord C y b e r S k u l l ✎☠ 23:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

- I dunno if I'd call them the same thing. While cowboys are associated with the West, a "Western" always strikes me as more about exploration & frontier life, often about surviving in a lawless region; a "cowboy movie" though always strikes me as being about living rowdy lives and bonding experiences like bromances (though I would include Thelma and Louise in the "cowboy" type), and is more about revelling in the freedom of lawlessness.

Besides, I've kinda thought the directional bias could make for some interesting derivatives.


 * Say, a "Space Eastern" is more like the stories of Shogun, Marco Polo, or even Gulliver's Travels to a degree. "Trips to exotic lands" stuff, where you explore cultures that are different from you and try to fit in.


 * A "Space Souther" might then be about expansion into new rich lands, but be concerned with how you deal with any native cultures you find.


 * "Space Norther" would be the opposite, getting into space only to find it fairly crowded up there, and focus on trying to find a niche for humanity in that crowd (perhaps even to the point of concern Earth would be overwhelmed, maybe by literal invasion, perhaps by just the sheer economic or social pressures.

Okay, maybe I'm just too biased & this insults everyone. Do hope not. I honestly think this mirrors the usual patterns for human migrations from Eurasia's major cultures when they probed in these directions.

KB KhyranLeander (talk) 13:21, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Books
It seems like there are almost endless examples of what could easily be classified as space Western novels. For one, A Princess of Mars by Edgar Rice Burroughs. Is there a reason that more haven't been included on this page? Savagediana (talk) 23:30, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Probably because most contributors to this encyclopedia never actually read anything. Wikipedia: The encyclopedia for people who hate books. DreamGuy (talk) 19:26, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Fallout: New Vegas?
I know it's not necessarily in space, but it is fairly western, it is scifi for sure, and i think there is a little space stuff in there... what do you think? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.12.152.180 (talk) 02:50, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Then it would be a science fiction western and not a space western. Behun (talk) 00:40, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Westworld
I can't find any indication that Westworld is actually set anywhere other than on Earth. One seems to need only take a hovercraft to get to the Delos amusement park. This would make the film a science fiction Western, correct? Perhaps it would be appropriate to remove this from the list. Savagediana (talk) 18:03, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Nicolasdawson (talk) 22:55, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Capitalization
Why is "Space" not capitalized? It is a place just like the West. SharkD  Talk  18:20, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

merge
Science fiction Western, having no reliable sources, should be merged here as the actual term that is used for works that combine sci fi and western genre. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  23:29, 27 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I agree. Back during the Space Frontier AfD, I became aware of these articles.  I was originally going to suggest Science fiction Western be merged here, but you redirected that article before I could.  I have found a few sources that discuss science fiction Westerns, but none of them do it independently of space Westerns.  The concepts are so intertwined and interrelated that it makes sense that they be discussed in one article.  We don't need to split hairs on sub-genres. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:58, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Mild disagree. There just seems to be nothing notable to merge into the Space Western article. I propose just deleting Sci-fi Western on notability alone and leaving it at that. The summary as a subgenre under "Western" is already a lot more detailed than the article it's self. If describing it (as, say, a typical Western with Sci-fi elements) as a point to not be confuse it with the similar "typical Sci-fi with Western elements" dissuades people from recreating the SciFi Western page, then I can see a benefit, even if I'm reluctant to call it a "merge" at this point. Dried cherry (talk) 21:08, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
 * No don't merge. Science fiction western is not set in outer space as opposed to Space Western. Why do you keep merging everything into Space Western? Already there was a vote to delete it and it was voted KEEP
 * 1) the "keep" was 8 years ago and the rigor for which we evaluate sources had increased dramatically since then while the sourcing for the article had not increased at all at the time of the merge suggestion. and in fact the decisions was not actually "keep" it was a "no consensus to delete- please discuss potential re-naming" - we are now discussing the renaming. 2) there is zero evidence that there is anyone who actually makes any distinction such as you are claiming, in fact, the Science Fiction Western article now has references that clearly identify Fire Fly as a "science fiction western". 3) we dont need to try and maintain two articles about the same thing when neither has any significant quantity of reliably sourced content - it all is about the same stuff and can easily be covered in a single article. --  TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom  21:11, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It was a useful distinction. I'm sad to see it go. :( SharkD   Talk  18:21, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Muse
Would the music video for Knights of Cydonia by Muse warrant a mention?

video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_sBOsh-vyI — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:3D08:6B82:8900:10E5:EFF9:2D9E:3182 (talk) 21:55, 4 December 2020 (UTC)