Talk:Space combat simulator/Archive 1

Genre scope
Is this genre limited to 1st/3rd person games where you control a single ship, or does it extend to RTSs, such as the Homeworld series, in which you indirectly control a fleet of ships? SharkD 20:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I mention this because I see that the Homeworld series is listed in Category:Space trading and combat simulation games. Considering there is only a single instance of trading (a scripted plot device) in a franchise that spans three titles (and there are no other comments by users), I'll go ahead and remove it. SharkD (talk) 14:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

For those of you considering doing research for the article...
Here's a list of sources (copied from the article's Articles for Deletion discussion): [Edit: reorganized, expanded as of 04:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)] Variations
 * Here is notable. "Evochron, a space combat and trading simulation built using the award-winning combat and graphics technology of the Star Wraith series." SharkD (talk) 23:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is another article. The site is a commercial one that is trying to sell the game, so I'm not sure it qualifies. "At the heart of the game is a turn-based space combat and trade game in which players fly between star systems with cargo, fighting pirates, or helping defend the galaxy from a new alien menace known as the Dominators." "Space Rangers is one part strategy game, one part adventure game, and one part space simulation.". SharkD (talk) 23:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is an (notable) article that puts Elite and the X series in the same genre. They may have the name wrong (they call it "space fight/trade simulation"), but they identify it as a distinct sub-genre just the same. SharkD (talk) 00:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Notable. "The sequel to Egosoft's space combat/trading game series, which featured such games as X: Beyond The Frontier and X2: The Threat, the follow-up X3: Reunion reconstructs the series with a new gameplay and graphics engine to delover a more immersive, living universe." The genre is listed as "Economic simulation". SharkD (talk) 00:03, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not notable, but adds to the volume of instances of the term being used. SharkD (talk) 00:32, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * GameSpy. "At its heart, Space Rangers 2 is a simplified space trading/combat simulation..." SharkD (talk) 03:36, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * IGN. "The underlying concept of the game is the space fighting/trading genre, invented with the game Elite in 1984." The article then goes on to say, "...a persistent massively multiplayer combination of space simulation, strategy and role-playing." SharkD (talk) 03:50, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * GameSpot. "This is the closest game I found in the Elite genre of space faring ... It's a fantastic trade-combat space simulation based in a giant universe, ..." SharkD (talk) 05:09, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "The centerpiece of Space Rangers 2 is a simplified space trading/combat simulation that puts the player at the helm of a one-man starship and lets him or her loose on a randomly created universe of over 100 different star systems controlled by five different races." SharkD (talk) 20:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Talking about Freelancer. "Unless, of course, you're Chris and Erin Roberts - the men behind the Wing Commander series, who set out to create a sprawling, hugely ambitious free-roaming space trading and combat sim way back in 1997." SharkD (talk) 20:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not notable (press release). "As the anticipation surrounding EGOSOFT's upcoming space trading / combat sim, X²: THE THREAT reaches supernova proportions, UK software publisher KOCH MEDIA are pleased to announce the release of the X²: THE THREAT ROLLING DEMO." SharkD (talk) 20:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Shows how far back in time the term was used. "...only a few months ago, a space trading/combat simulator was canned after two years' development work and a limited advertising campaign in America!" SharkD (talk) 20:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "What would happen if you took a couple of futuristic space combat trading sim games like Privateer or Freelancer, threw them into a blender, added flying cars, vans, motorcycles, cartoon punks, ninjas, and zombies, and then added a dash of pterodactuls and hit puree?" SharkD (talk) 20:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Probably not notable. "Flatspace is a promising freeform space trading / combat simulator. Unfortunately, because of it's promise, the end product is all that more frustrating. " SharkD (talk) 20:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Talking about Space Empires: Starfury. "A straight-forward space trading/combat sim that has been set in the Space Empire universe. It follows a tried and true formula and is obviously aimed at a group of fans who wish to command one of the ships that they have to date been able to command only from a fleet perspective" SharkD (talk) 20:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "X:Beyond the Frontier was a deep and engrossing, unashamedly Elite styled space / trading / combat sim." SharkD (talk) 20:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "X2 The Threat provides game players a brand new dimension to the space trading / combat sim genre." SharkD SharkD (talk) 20:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "It's not that there haven't been pretenders to the throne of Elite. There was the sequel, Frontier, for a start - and then a succession of space trading/combat sims in the intervening years, all of which have tried hard to recapture the addictive qualities of Elite, but all of which have failed to provide the incredible sense of freedom and of a solid universe which somehow Elite managed with wireframe 3D graphics and a decent random number generator." SharkD (talk) 20:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not notable. Talking about Space Rangers 2. "A simplified space trading/combat simulation." SharkD (talk) 20:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Talking about Freelancer. "Microsoft has released some new screens of its upcoming 3D space trade and combat simulation." SharkD (talk) 03:57, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "This demo [of DarkStar One] features a large tutorial that allows you to get used to this space combat and trading sim." SharkD (talk) 04:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "[X2: The Threat is] a fantastic trade-combat space simulation based in a giant universe, ..." SharkD (talk) 04:29, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * GameSpot "X2: The Return adds a new storyline and a host of new features to X2: The Threat, expanding its unique world of space combat and trading." SharkD (talk) 14:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This review is linked to in the above article. " The core of Space Rangers 2 is a turn-based space combat/trade game where players fly between planets and star systems either running cargo, engaging in combat with pirates, or joining star fleets en route to liberate entire systems from invading robots called Dominators." The site features a PayPal donation button, so it might not be notable. SharkD (talk) 23:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is one more. I believe it is a notable site. "EVE Online at its simplest is a space trading, exploration, and combat game, although calling it so really only scratches the most superficial aspect of what EVE is all about." SharkD (talk) 00:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * GameSpy. "An English computer programmer by the name David Braben set about designing a game based on a deep space combat and trading theme, which would end up defining an entire genre of computer entertainment." "Elite was based around the premise that a player assumed the role of a deep space trader/pilot that was without reputation, wealth, or status. As the pilot, you were tasked with running tradable cargo from planet to planet, solar system to solar system, and maybe even a spot of bounty hunting." SharkD (talk) 02:35, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Stargamer.net. "X3: Reunion is the latest instalment in the X series of space trading and combat games that immediately bring to mind memories of 1984 and the heady days of Elite." "At its core, X3 is closer to being a space trading game than one of combat and action, one where the aim is to buy up materials and commodities in one station and hopefully sell them for a profit at another - hopefully somewhere close by. Cash inevitably allows you to upgrade your ship, buy new ships and generally have a good time. So far, so Elite, and although the Braben/Bell classic had a million times-fewer polygons and no textures, the basic concept hasn't been changed much here." SharkD (talk) 02:35, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 1up. "There's something to be said for Cinemaware's cherry picking of odd Russian and European releases if it gets us titles like Space Rangers 2. A representative of the once huge but now long waning outer space exploration/trading/diplomacy/little ships exploding genre, SR2 is reminiscent of games like Freelancer, Privateer, Elite and long time favorite Star Control 2." "It's always nice to see a long missed genre revisited and modernized." They get a little creative with the name, but it's clear they're speaking of the same genre. They go on to mention other games like Freelancer, Privateer and Elite. SharkD (talk) 02:55, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * DeafGamers. "Ever since the days Elite there has always been something appealing about space based games that allowed combat and trading. Since Elite (and its poorer sequels) there have been other great games such as the Wing Commander series and X-beyond the frontier. Freelancer is the latest title in this genre and it is a game that has been eagerly awaited since it was first announced back in 2000." SharkD (talk) 03:54, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * GamersInfo. "Back in ‘the day’, as they say, there was a little game on the Commodore 64 called Elite. It was a vector graphics funhouse of space combat and drug running from star system to star system. ... Enter Eve Online, stage left. I’ve had my eyes on this game since it first came out. Could it be the Elite replacement I always yearned for? Could it recapture my love for space games the way Privateer did?" SharkD (talk) 04:11, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * SciFi.com. "But let's get one thing straight: Fans of Elite who could do without the superfluous mental gymnastics of games like Egosoft's X series but who need more than mere stock-market tic-tac-toe should give the free (and small, at 12.5 MB) downloadable demo a look. And barring any adolescent (in gamer years) hangups about its budget graphics, chances are you'll be hooked for hours, days, weeks, even months to come." Mentions Elite, the X series and Flatspace II in the same context. SharkD (talk) 04:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Eurogamer. "Elite, it could be argued, is the shining light of retro gaming - perhaps the one old game which simply has not been bettered by a modern take on the same genre..." SharkD (talk) 05:15, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is a notable source. "StarWraith 3D Games LLC has released Evochron Renegades, the sequel to its original freeform 3D space combat and mercenary simulator." The article then goes on to mention, "With gameplay options far beyond the genre's typical trading and combat(...)". -- SharkD (talk) 21:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is another article. "Like Flatspace II, Jack of All Trades owes a lot to Elite, the pioneering space trading-and-combat game." Here is the site's editorial policy. Not sure what to make of it. -- SharkD (talk) 22:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * CVG. "...I was absolutely slack-jawed at what I saw, and thrilled by the plans Roberts had for his all-new assault on the space-trading genre." The genre's name has undergone some sort of change, but it's speaking about the same genre. SharkD (talk) 03:28, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yahoo! Games "Over the years, the space exploration and trading genre has become more and more simulation heavy, with games that let you slowly fly and appreciate the grandeur of space while you gaze at beautiful planets and complex space stations. Space Rangers 2: Rise of the Dominators won't be mistaken for one of those games..." Again, the name has changed slightly; but they're talking about the same genre. SharkD (talk) 03:28, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Armchair Empire. "Originating from the mind behind the uber-successful Wing Commander series, Chris Roberts, Freelancer was supposed to be a revolutionary step forward for the space exploration/combat genre." Another variation on the name, but the article states the game belongs to this unique genre. SharkD (talk) 03:28, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Armchair Empire. "First, and perhaps foremost, Space Rangers 2 is a space exploration and conquest game similar to Masters of Orion or, for the truly old school amongst you, Elite." Another variation of the terminology, but the author then goes on to describe the common features to the genre. SharkD (talk) 03:28, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * IGN. "What's more, the co-creator of seminal space-trading sim, Elite, also confirmed that Elite IV is pencilled in for release on current generation gaming hardware, following its announcement in, er, 2001." Variant terminology. Mention of Elite. SharkD (talk) 03:44, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * RPGCodex. "[Space Rangers 2 is a] Space Trader in the vein of Elite, Escape Velocity Nova, and so on. Has turn-based ground and air combat, ship and skill customization, and much more." SharkD (talk) 04:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * RPGDot. "Space Rangers 2: Dominators hearkens back to an older gaming era with 2D turn-based gameplay that's simple and fun with a wealth of depth. Russian developer Elemental Games has crafted an open-ended space-trading game with strong RPG elements, surprising variety, a slick interface and a sense of humour and charm - even if a little of that is lost in the translation." SharkD (talk) 04:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Elite Games. A fan-site dedicated to the genre. Also features a press release for a game which purports the existence of an 'Elite genre'. "Entropy is a space trading/piracy/bounty hunter/free form styled 'Elite genre' game, attempting to bring modern technology to the era." SharkD (talk) 04:54, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Abandonia. "Despite the poor graphics and sound, the playability of the game is enormous... Just consider that this game created (in 1983!) the "space exploration" genre of games. With the exception of better graphics, more enormous galaxies, and more missions and enemies, all the games of the same genre (like Frontier and Privateer, and even more modern ones) are based on Elite. Anyone who likes this type of game should play Elite, at least to see where it all began."
 * DeafGamers. "Space action and exploration titles don't come along that often. Elite kicked the genre off many moons ago but since then there's not been a great deal of games to attempt to follow in its footsteps. X: Beyond the Frontier and it's two sequels, the Independence War games and Freelancer are the only ones that readily spring to mind and when you consider how long ago it was that Elite first appeared that's pretty disappointing. DarkStar One from Ascaron Entertainment is the latest title to enter this sparsely populated genre. Let's see how it shapes up." SharkD (talk) 05:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * VideoGamer.com. "Darkstar One has all the attributes of the archetypal 'Elite Clone' and I'm sure the developers wouldn't want it any other way. ... One thing that immediately separates Darkstar One from others in the genre is the nature and importance of your starting ship. ... The ship aside, Darkstar One pans out in much the same way as other games in the genre. The story and free aspects of the game co-exist and you will need to take part in both to explore the universe." SharkD (talk) 05:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ic-games. "In the beginning of space based gaming there was a game called ‘Elite’, then several years later its sequel ‘Elite II: Frontier’ between them they set the standard for trading/action space gaming and which most (if not all games) have fallen short of. Now Deepsilver and Egosoft have brought the next contender forward, X2: The Threat. Can this be the one to topple the champion… indeed can it even come close, well read on and find out. ... X2: The Threat might not be able to take the ‘Elite’ games off the Space trader/fighter throne but it certainly deserves to be sitting on it’s right hand surveying all lesser titles with contempt." SharkD (talk) 05:43, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * IGN. "Sometimes, the first games in a subgenre (space trading adventure, in this case) are so good and memorable that the followers never quite come out from under that shadow. Elite came out in 1987 and popped out two sequels. Privateer emerged in 1993, quickly followed by an expansion pack, then an adventure-oriented sequel many years later and the semi-sequel Freelancer earlier this year. Unfortunately, Privateer and Elite still stand head-and-shoulders above what came after. X2: The Threat comes closer than Freelancer in some respects, but is held back by a few fundamental issues." SharkD (talk) 05:50, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * SciFi.com. "Don't get me wrong, the particulars are deep and methodical, but Space Rangers 2 is the Cindy Lauper of space-trading sims..." SharkD (talk) 03:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not notable (developer's site). Talking about Evochron. "Advanced Freeform 3D Space Combat, Trading, Racing, Exploration, and Mercenary Simulation" SharkD (talk) 20:02, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * CVG "We speak with Digital Anvil about its free-roaming, space combat/trade game for PC". "Digital Anvil's Freelancer is an ambitious space combat/trade title that combines strong storyline with free-form, open-ended gameplay." SharkD (talk) 21:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Plus a bunch of other links I didn't feel worth mentioning. SharkD (talk) 00:47, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Non computer games
There are many, many trade and conflict games at BoardGameGeek16:12, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I haven't been able to uncover any research of these games being called "space trading and combat simulators" or "space trading and combat games", but it's clear that these games share many of the same themes and features. I'm not that familiar with board games, but I'll list some of the ones I've heard mentioned or ones that I "feel" fit the genre by searching the site you've linked to, above.
 * Traveller
 * Merchant of Venus
 * Escape Velocity Nova: A Sci-Fi Card-Driven Board Game - based on the video game
 * Smugglers of the Galaxy
 * Star Venture
 * Starship Tycoons
 * Solar Trader
 * Space Barons
 * Are there any I missed? I noticed some others that seem more like 4X games and/or focus on mining as opposed to trade. SharkD (talk) 15:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I've mentioned them in the article. SharkD (talk) 15:29, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Suggested renaming/merge
(Moved from the article's Articles for Deletion discussion)


 * Comment / Rename. I think the research you've found establishes that there IS a genre here. However, the research is VERY inconsistent on what it's called. The "Simulation" part is especially inconsistent. I think that this article is going to at least need a rename. My suggestion? Go for the lowest common denominator with "Space adventure game", even if we need a special sub-section for "Elite Clones". However, I don't think there's much research to establish the article as it is named now. "Space Trading and Combat Simulation Games". I'm open to a discussion. You seem to know the research better than anybody else. Randomran (talk) 05:25, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 15 of the 33 links mention "simulation". Some games are covered in multiple articles, not all of which call the games sims. SharkD (talk) 06:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Only 3 out of 33 call it a simulation. A handfull of others might mention simulation aspects deeper in the article. Like I said, you've verified that the genre exists. But the research does not confirm the title "Space Trading and Combat Simulation Game", especially on the "Simulation" aspect. Randomran (talk) 16:03, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Search the articles themselves for the string "sim"; this will bring up variations of the term, e.g. "simulator", "sim", "simulation". There's a 16th article which mentions "simulated trade", but I didn't include that in my original count (I'll add it now). Simply searching the quotes in the above list of links results in five instances of the term simulation/simulator/sim being used [edit] properly. SharkD (talk) 03:20, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I added an additional link which calls the genre "space-trading sim", bringing the total to 17 out of 34, including the instance of "simulated trade". SharkD (talk) 03:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "Space adventure game" is ludicrous and based entirely upon original research. Only one of the above listed articles mentions adventure. SharkD (talk) 07:24, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree, but I'd go a bit further. The research that you've uncovered shows that whatever this genre is, it is not a "simulation", and is seldom mentioned (especially in games that have a top-down combat screen like Star Control 2). I would suggest merging the few true space flight simulators with other flight simulators, and merge the remainder of the space simulation genre into this article. Games like Elite and Space Rangers belong in this genre. But it needs a rename... at the very least, we need to drop the "Simulation" part, to encompass the broad set of games you've found. Like I've said, I hope you're open to discussing a rename. Randomran (talk) 05:34, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't consider Star Control 2 a great example of the genre. It's missing many of the trading options. SharkD (talk) 06:48, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * To clarify, I wasn't saying that Star Control 2 was part of this genre. I was only saying that a lot of the games you mentioned have a top down view rather than a first person view. That's pretty strong evidence against this being a simulation genre. Randomran (talk) 16:03, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Note, that in addition to space flight being simulated, trade is being simulated (e.g., "buy low, sell high"). The city-building genre simulates city management; economic simulators simulate economies; government simulators simulate government and politics. Also, I don't see what top-down perspective has to do with anything. SimCity uses a top-down perspective, and it's a simulation game.SharkD (talk) 03:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Elaborating further, using a better example... Space Rangers 2 is a top-down game and is frequently called an RPG. I think we have to find a lower common denominator to name this genre. Randomran (talk) 16:07, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * A Google search for "space rangers sim" results in 800,000 hits. "Space rangers simulator" results in 435,000 hits (this also brings up instances of "simulation" being used). Space Rangers is a multi-genre game. Just because it has RPG elements doesn't mean it isn't a space simulator in addition to being an RPG. SharkD (talk) 03:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)


 * You have not established what this genre is, let alone that space rangers is included in it. You can't rely on google to prove that. (1) The article says "combat simulation" but some games include a cartoon style combat view. Hardly simulation fare. This is what a combat simulator looks like. (2) The simulation label is thrown around very casually and loosely. I just read that a fantasy text adventure is a simulation . I'm not in a hurry to call Zork a simulation game, let alone a hybrid game. Simulations describe something very specific. (3) relying upon google to establish reliability and notability violate WP:google. It does not establish notability. It is not verifiable. (4) An article with the word "sim" in it is NOT the same thing as an article that says "this is a simulation game". To claim otherwise is to violate WP:SYN You're finding articles that might have the word "simulation" in them and might describe parts of the gameplay as simulation. That doesn't prove that there is a genre "space combat simulation". This is misuse of google. Changing the search parameters will change the notability wildly. My search on "space rangers cool" revealed 1.4 million results. Does that mean that it is part of the "cool" genre? Just because some articles mention a word, it doesn't mean that word describes a genre. In contrast, my search on ""space rangers" ("trade and combat" OR "combat and trade" OR "trading and combat" or "combat and trading")" revealed only 3 results  .  I found 2 million results for a google of "simcity RPG". Let's not play the google card. It's inherently sloppy.
 * Firstly, let me point out that there's a typo in your search query. There are actually "about" 66 results to the query, many of them ones I've already listed. Have you been actually reading the articles? SharkD (talk) 03:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Secondly, let me list some examples of where these games are being called simulators:
 * "StarWraith 3D Games LLC has released Evochron Renegades, the sequel to its original freeform 3D space combat and mercenary simulator."
 * "Egosoft announced today that its space simulation X3: Reunion reached gold status and is expected to be released in Europe in the coming weeks."
 * "Evochron, a space combat and trading simulation built using the award-winning combat and graphics technology of the Star Wraith series."
 * "Space Rangers is one part strategy game, one part adventure game, and one part space simulation."
 * X3 is listed in the genre "Economic Simulation". SharkD (talk) 08:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "More than any other modern space combat simulation -- save for perhaps the persistent state EVE Online -- X3 is about freedom."
 * "Hi again, Jonric. X3: Reunion will continue in the same vein as previous X games - that is to say a space simulation offering the players complete freedom in exploration, combat, trading and building as well as alien race relations."
 * "David Braben and Ian Bell’s seminal science fiction space fight/trade simulation changed the way games were played and ushered in a new era. It has never really been beaten, but it has been cloned several times." "X3 is the latest in the series and die-hard X fans will love it, but out of the box it has some serious issues that require patch 1.3 or 1.31 beta to be installed. The game has a great potential mod wise and is worth getting if you like space sims." The game is listed in the "Simulator" genre.
 * This is one of the non-notable ones listed, above. "Trade League is a space combat and trade simulation made in FLASH, being widely accessible and still offering great features such as quality graphics, effects, gameplay."
 * "At its heart, Space Rangers 2 is a simplified space trading/combat simulation..."
 * "A further and much larger revelation came when we found out about the very ambitious project already in progress there, a persistent massively multiplayer combination of space simulation, strategy and role-playing called EVE."
 * "[X2: The Threat is] a fantastic trade-combat space simulation based in a giant universe, ..."
 * "It's been five years in the making, [Freelancer is] the biggest space sim since the original Elite and Richie Shoemaker thinks it could be alright"
 * The game, Freelancer, is listed under the simulation genre.
 * "What's more, the co-creator of seminal space-trading sim, Elite, also confirmed that Elite IV is pencilled in for release on current generation gaming hardware, following its announcement in, er, 2001."
 * Not notable (developer's site). Talking about Evochron. "Advanced Freeform 3D Space Combat, Trading, Racing, Exploration, and Mercenary Simulation" SharkD (talk) 08:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ''"After all, [RiftSpace] is a simulation of fighter combat in space, not an arcade shooter."' 'SharkD (talk) 08:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "This demo [of DarkStar One] features a large tutorial that allows you to get used to this space combat and trading sim." SharkD (talk) 08:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This category page lists DarkStar One, Freelancer, Spaceforce: Rogue Universe, X3: Reunion, X2: The Threat, Elite, Wing Commander: Privateer, Privateer 2: The Darkening, Flatspace II: Rise of the Scarrid (a 2D game), and Frontier: Elite II as "Space Combat Sims". SharkD (talk) 08:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "It's not that there haven't been pretenders to the throne of Elite. There was the sequel, Frontier, for a start - and then a succession of space trading/combat sims in the intervening years, all of which have tried hard to recapture the addictive qualities of Elite, but all of which have failed to provide the incredible sense of freedom and of a solid universe which somehow Elite managed with wireframe 3D graphics and a decent random number generator." SharkD (talk) 08:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "X2 The Threat provides game players a brand new dimension to the space trading / combat sim genre." SharkD (talk) 08:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "X:Beyond the Frontier was a deep and engrossing, unashamedly Elite styled space / trading / combat sim." SharkD (talk) 08:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Talking about Space Empires: Starfury (a 2D game). "A straight-forward space trading/combat sim that has been set in the Space Empire universe. It follows a tried and true formula and is obviously aimed at a group of fans who wish to command one of the ships that they have to date been able to command only from a fleet perspective" SharkD (talk) 08:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "Flatspace is a promising freeform space trading / combat simulator. Unfortunately, because of it's promise, the end product is all that more frustrating. " SharkD (talk) 08:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * "What would happen if you took a couple of futuristic space combat trading sim games like Privateer or Freelancer, threw them into a blender, added flying cars, vans, motorcycles, cartoon punks, ninjas, and zombies, and then added a dash of pterodactuls and hit puree?" SharkD (talk) 08:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Shows how far back in time the term was used. "...only a few months ago, a space trading/combat simulator was canned after two years' development work and a limited advertising campaign in America!" SharkD (talk) 08:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not notable (press release). "As the anticipation surrounding EGOSOFT's upcoming space trading / combat sim, X²: THE THREAT reaches supernova proportions, UK software publisher KOCH MEDIA are pleased to announce the release of the X²: THE THREAT ROLLING DEMO." SharkD (talk) 08:43, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Talking about Freelancer. "Unless, of course, you're Chris and Erin Roberts - the men behind the Wing Commander series, who set out to create a sprawling, hugely ambitious free-roaming space trading and combat sim way back in 1997."
 * Not notable, but the game, Elite Plus, is listed under the simulation genre.
 * "Two members of the Egosoft team tell us all about their new space simulation in the living X-Universe."
 * Not notable (a press reslease). "Enlight, a leading entertainment software developer and publisher, announced today the highly anticipated space simulation game X¿: The Threat has shipped to retail stores across North America for the holidays."
 * "You can order this space simulation game here, if you so desire."
 * They're talking about X2: The Threat. "Check out these amazing screens from this upcoming space sim."
 * "Don't get me wrong, the particulars are deep and methodical, but Space Rangers 2 is the Cindy Lauper of space-trading sims..."
 * Talking about Space Rangers. "In this space combat simulation, players begin with a small spaceship and can aquire more powerful equipment through trade and quests."
 * The Google result has this bit of text under it, but I can't find it in the actual article. "Independent review of 1C Company Space Rangers 2: Dominators - find out how well it performs compared to other space and flight sims." Also, the article istself is listed under "Space and flight sim reviews".
 * "Space Rangers 2 is a unique combination of the space sim, adventure, and strategy genres."
 * Talking about Space Rangers 2. "It’s a space sim, it’s a text based adventure, it’s a 3D shooter, and it’s a trading game. And it comes with the original game as well. A very impressive package with something for everybody. "
 * Not notable. Talking about Space Rangers 2. "A simplified space trading/combat simulation."
 * Not notable. Talking about Space Rangers 2. "The whole thing about this game is that it's totally retro and niche. It's a turn-based, top-down, point-n-click, semi-sandbox, space sim with RTS side-games, and predominantly text-adventure style planetary quests."
 * "Space Rangers is one part strategy game, one part adventure game, and one part space simulation."
 * Space Rangers is listed under the genre "Simulation -> Space".
 * Not notable. Space Rangers is listed under "Small Spaceship > Simulation > Sci-Fi".
 * The Google result shows the following text, but I can't find it in the actual article. "Space Rangers (PC) In this space combat simulation, players begin with a small spaceship and can aquire more powerful equipment through trade and quests."
 * "Space Rangers 2: Rise of the Dominators displays a gleeful irreverence for genre conventions, throwing different gameplay styles into a mix that turns out to be bursting with random variety and imagination. Vladivostok-based Elemental Games and Cinemaware Marquee have released a title that is equal parts real-time and turn-based strategy, trading simulator, and even text adventure."
 * "The centerpiece of Space Rangers 2 is a simplified space trading/combat simulation that puts the player at the helm of a one-man starship and lets him or her loose on a randomly created universe of over 100 different star systems controlled by five different races."
 * The article places the game, Space Rangers 2, in the "Space Simulation" category.
 * The Google result shows the following text, but I can't find it in the actual article. German. "Vorschau, Spieletipps und Informationen für das Simulation-Spiel Space Rangers 2: Dominators mit aktuellen News, Screenshots und Downloads." Translates to "Previews, playing tips and information for the simulation game Space Rangers 2: Dominators with current news, screenshots and downloads.". Also, the article lists the game under the "PC: Simulation" category.
 * Moby Games lists the game, Space Rangers 2, in the "Merchant / Trade-oriented games" category. The definition of the category includes the following: "The term 'Trading Simulation' is commonly used in this respect."
 * Then there are the articles which emphasize the simulation aspects of the games. Personally, I would consider these articles to be calling the genre a simulation.
 * "Wonderful economy and trade sim options recall space games of yesteryear."
 * "This time, however, the universe is a lot more complex and advanced than the relatively simple affair presented in Elite. Egosoft has set out to create a vast, sprawling game world with an intricate and perfectly simulated economy, and in this effort the developer has been hugely successful."
 * "Over the years, the space exploration and trading genre has become more and more simulation heavy, with games that let you slowly fly and appreciate the grandeur of space while you gaze at beautiful planets and complex space stations." Talking about the genre as a whole.
 * Finally, just because a space simulator is 2D doesn't mean it isn't simulating space flight. There are many 2D games which go to great lengths to simulate space flight accurately, implementing such things as Newtonian physics. SharkD (talk) 05:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I am willing to concede that there IS a genre around elite clones that is distinct from other space flight games. But what I take issue with is the name of the genre, which you have failed to establish with notable and verifiable research. All you have is a bunch of articles that mention some permutation of combat, trade, space, and simulation. You haven't found wide use of "space trading and combat simulation game". We should discuss a rename. Randomran (talk) 17:13, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey there. I just wanted to commend you for your hard work on this article. I also particularly appreciate the effort to come up with multiple names around this genre, which I think covers the varied names found in your broad research. Might I also suggest moving this article to one of the shorter names, just to be succinct? Or, at the very least, setting up a few re-directs. (ex: space trade game, space trading simulator, and so on) Randomran (talk) 06:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Control systems
I'm not sure the control systems section should be there. It's going to be hard to source a section on varying preferences among segments of the gaming population. SharkD (talk) 06:39, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Trading is only Space ?!
in http://www.ag.ru/games/filter/g75 the genre is called "Prvateer/Trade", and it includes: and so on... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.115.55.65 (talk) 03:39, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
 * [18 Wheels of Steel: American Long Haul]] - Racing (Cars) / 3D / Privateer/Trader
 * 18 Wheels of Steel: Haulin' - Racing (Cars) / Simulator / 3D / Privateer/Trader
 * 18 Wheels of Steel: Pedal to the Metal - Racing (Cars) / Simulator / 3D / Privateer/Trader
 * A.I.M. 2: Clan Wars - Simulator (Futuristic veh.) / 3D / Privateer/Trader
 * A.I.M.: Artificial Intelligence Machine - Simulator (Futuristic veh.) / 3D / Privateer/Trader
 * Age of Pirates: Caribbean Tales - Naval / RPG / 3D / 3rd Person / Privateer/Trader
 * Archimedian Dynasty - Simulator (Submarine) / 3D / Privateer/Trader