Talk:Spaniards/Archive 6

About Regions with significant populations
The statistics in the Regions with significant populations part of the infobox are absolutely fanciful and the supposed references not only are unreliable but also they don't state what is referenced. I think it's time to remove that eyesore. Everyone agrees? --Jotamar (talk) 00:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Kun.

I agree. The Count of Monte Cristo (talk) 00:28, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I've just removed the statistics for most countries, which where based on unrelated or unavailable sources. The amount claimed for the USA looks very dubious, but at least there is a remote justification for it. --Jotamar (talk) 13:51, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh by all means if two people agree, do it! All of those sources were fine. This does not count as a "consensus." 71.204.157.119 (talk) 01:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Brazil
How can Spaniards outnumber Portuguese in the Portuguese colony of Brazil? Anwar saadat (talk) 10:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I know this is old but, for the same reason German-americans outnumber British-americans in the ex-british colony of the United States. More Spanish immigrated to Brazil than Portuguese. The same thing happened in America.--Ace Oliveira (talk) 15:35, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


 * This is not true. More Portuguese immigrated to Brazil than any other people (despite "Africans", who would actually be from different countries). Opinoso (talk) 01:00, 7 November 2009 (UTC)


 * brazil is the most arab country in the world out of arab world; brazil is the most japanese country out of japan; brazil is the most italian country out of italy..

The Genetics section neutrality
In regard to the "Sephardic result" in the above mentioned section, it seem like all efforts were made by editors here to deny this result with measures that are not in line with Wikipedia rules. First, studies that are cited to contradict this result make no such claims and deald with different lineages than those were studied in the 2008 research. Second, the results are not in contradiction with non of the previous studies as the 2008 study was focused on other lineages and is the first to make such a comparison between Jewish people and Spanish people. The attempt to replace the Jewish result with imaginary Phoenician one was involved blatant distortion of what the source that was cited as one in contradiction with the Sephardic result said...We do have one valid citation of Spanish professor who said that as Jewish and Phoenician DNA are hard to distinguish the conclusions of the 2008 study are questionable, however -he preformed no study to refute these results and in any case was answered adequately that Phoenicians are not relevant in this case as the results reflect common heritage less than 1000 years ago. I edited this part of the section time after time in accordance with reliable and verified sources and without distorting the facts-but time after time my edits were reverted on the behalf of edits that are not in line with Wikipedia standards. Hence, I add a tag of disputed neutrality to this section.--Gilisa (talk) 09:44, 3 December 2009 (UTC)


 * The studies that are cited as contradicting the Sephardim result attribute the J2 lineages found in Spain (In Adams et al interpreted as Sephardim) to either Neolithic farmers, Phoenician seamen or deny Jewish ancestry among Spaniards (the study with Spanish-Americans). Those studies have been published in peer-reviewed journals and have the same validity as Adams et al. to qualify as sources. Actually they have more validity and I think they need to be given more importance, since they display a consensus. There are actually many more studies that contradict the Sephardim interpretation (for example every study about Neolithic influence on modern Europeans, quite a few), being the Neolithic, Phoenician and Greco-Roman settlements the actual academic consensus in mainstream population genetics about the origin of most of the J2 found in Spain or elsewhere in Europe. Simply by looking at J2 frequencies in any European population there is no way to tell apart "Jewish ancestry" from Neolithic, Roman, Greek or Phoenician/Levantine/Semite since all those populations are heavy J2 carriers. You can only speculate. All those peoples made settlements in Spain, so it's (still) not possible to quantify the specific contribution of J2 by any of those groups. Here is a page with the averages of Y chromosome frequencies of all European populations, averages obtained from all the major genetic studies done in Europe. According to Adams at al., of all European countries, only in Spain the J2 would be of Jewish origin, and, true or not, that is just one interpretation for the J2 found in Spain and that discrepancy between studies needs to be mentioned. J2 is spread in all of Europe and most European countries have similar or higher frequencies than those found in Spain, corresponding to Neolithic/Phoenician/Greco-Roman settlement patters, which include Spain. The only lineage analized in that study that is as today of indisputable Jewish/Semite origin is J1, and if you check the haplogroup frequencies in the Adams et al. paper you will see how the Sephardim sample has a very similar proportion of J1 to J2, while in the Spanish samples J1 is very low compared to the J2. Obviously most of the J2 comes from other sources (this is why they say in the study "despite alternative sources"). And by the way, they are also the only study in the mainstream scientific literature to attribute the I frequencies in Spain to a Sephardim origin. You could actually use as contradicting sources to Adams et al. all the studies that attribute those I lineages in Spain and elswhere in Europe as a result of the Germanic expansion. And by the way, the reason why the paper gives higher frequencies of J2, J1 and E1b1b1b (E-M81) than all the other studies done in Spain is because for some reason they didn't analize all the common haplogroups present in the Spanish population, instead choosing to focus on the few more representative, but ignoring others that are also quite common (check the eupedia averages). I wouldn't put much trust on that paper, specially on the historical interpretations, but it was a major study and needs to be mentioned.


 * If you still don't understand why there is no way to tell apart who made what contribution of J2 (or I) to Spain, before editing this page again please make sure to read the wikipedia page about European Neolithic genetics and check all the sources posted. If you don't understand about population genetics or why J2 is interpreted in different ways in some papers but still feel that the Sephardim interpretation is being injustly put down (which I'm afraid is the case), here is some non-technical and easy to understand for the layman criticism about the paper made on the most read blog about population genetics on the Internet. There is a reason why on every interview about that study the authors are remarkably ambiguous about their Sephardim theory, since they know that what they call "Jewish" could be called equally "Neolithic", "Phoenician", "Roman", etc. Actually I remember a quote made by one of the authors during an interview in which he acknowledges that the 20% figure is virtually impossible, since there was never such a high Jewish population living in Spain at any time in history (adding to that the subsequent expulsions). I can search for that interview (it was published on the online edition of a popular Spanish newspaper) and add it to the section as a source along with all the other Neolithic and haplogroup I papers, but I think that would be a bit of an overkill since that paragraph is already quite sourced. --80.30.165.186 (talk) 22:52, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The guy that created this section deleted for some reason the Phoenician study. The study needs to stay in that section for two reasons: is about Spanish genetics, it deals with the same lineages as Adams et al., was published in a peer-reviewed journal and has been cited in other studies and, more important (and puzzling) was made from the same team that produced Adams et al just months after. I'm restoring how that section was worded before Gilisa decided for himself to erase it, even though that section was the result of consensus.--193.152.157.162 (talk) 23:22, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism with Peru and Mexico
PERU NOT HAVE 9.0 MILLION OF SAPANIARD O SPANISH ETHNIC, THE WHITE PEOPLE IN PERU IS OF 15% OR 4.3 MILLION OF PERUVIANS IN THE MEXICO CASE, THIS COUNTRY NOT HAVE 80 MILLION OF SAPANIARD. THE WITHE PEOPLE IN MEXICO IS 15  MILLION. MEXICAN AND PERUVIAN, ARE INDIGENOUS NATIONS  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.45.118.106 (talk) 04:37, 6 December 2009 (UTC)


 * There was no vandalism before your changes, only sources. These figures are in the "related" section and are figures for the racially related populations - that means those related to the Spanish through ancestry = criollos AND mestizos, etc. Furthermore, unmixed whites in Mexico are around 17-18% or 19-20 million - and, Mexico, of all Hispanic countries, has the largest number of mestizos. Also, the label "indigenous nation" does not fit, despite the pride for it's Indigenous past. Please do not revert sourced statistics. C.Kent87 (talk) 09:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)


 * how can be 80000000 persons in mexico of spanish ancestry?that it just ridiculous —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.3.217.177 (talk) 14:51, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
 * It has already been explained. C.Kent87 (talk) 23:10, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
 * where and how? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.3.217.177 (talk) 23:21, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Refer to all comments. C.Kent87 (talk) 09:59, 27 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Please don't use ALL CAPS; it's tiresome.


 * You say: Peru not have 9.0 million of Sapaniard o Spanish ethnic, the white people in Peru is of 15% or 4.3 million of Peruvians.


 * But this is about "ethnic Spanish descent", a vague and undefined term and not necessarily the same as being of "Spanish ethnicity". And there's no particular reason to believe that it's the same as "white".


 * Where are the sources for your assertions? (Why should anyone believe what you say?) -- Hoary (talk) 11:38, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

"People related by ancestry"
This article has an infobox that lists the numbers of "people who are related by ancestry".

If somebody's Spanish ancestry is limited to a single "great" (&times;N) grandparent from Spain (where N is as high as you like), I take it that she'd be related by ancestry. I don't know how anyone could find this out.

If "related by ancestry" means something else, I'd like to see what it means.

I checked the references adduced for these numbers. One's in Portuguese; I left it as I do not read Portuguese. One even announced that it was a Wikipedia scrape. None of the others said what it was claimed in this article that it said.

This part of the article strikes me as worse than worthless: it confidently gives unsourced, meaningless numbers that may actually impress its more gullible readers. -- Hoary (talk) 11:59, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * This article is about Spanish people also known as Spaniards, but here ir's talking about Mexicans!, Cubans!, Argentinians! and other Latin Americans. Just because they have varying levels of Spanish ancestry, some a lot, some a little, doesn't matter, doesn't make them Spanish. Spanish people come from Spain like French people come from France and Germans come from Germany. End of story. And yes the ancestry numbers are rubbish - 80 percent of Puerto Ricans claim they are "white" ie European lol!

Spanish people from Latinamerica
Some Mexican editors seem to consider that 9 to 15 million people in Mexico are ethnically Spanish. To support this they offer:
 * a Tour operator page about tourism in Mexico: roughly as unreliable as it gets. But even worse...
 * a link to the Encyclopaedia Britannica which simply does not have anything even remotely similar to the 9 to 15 million claim.

However, all that is not the real problem. The real problem is this: what have all those millions to be counted as ethnically Spanish? Note that we alrady had a discussion in About Regions with significant populations, where there was an agreement to erase the figures of Spanish people based exclusively on presumed ancestry and white race.


 * If the reason to include someone as part of the Spanish people is simply ancestry, the amount for Mexico and other Latinamerican countries would probably get near 100% of the population... rather preposterous.
 * If the reason are cultural traits, then we should know which are those traits, how they are different between individuals and what statistics we have about them.
 * If the reason is whatever I can't think of, please enlighten me!
 * I really would like to know if a conversation like this is common in Mexico:
 * Hello, I'm Juan, I'm a Mexican of Spanish ethnicity.
 * Hello, I'm Pedro, I'm a Spanish Mexican too!
 * How nice, we have the same ethnicity, let's throw a celebration! --Jotamar (talk) 14:27, 20 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Jotamar, you have got to be joking... Join us for a moment in reality. You're correct when you say that "all that is not the real problem" - We know what the real problem is by your comments and imagined "conversation" between Mexicans in your head.


 * We are looking at "simple ancestry" as you suggest, yet you seemed to stop making sense there.


 * Mexico's total population is around 111,211,789 (July 2009). Encyclopedia Britannica lists Mexicans of European heritage (“whites”), as 'nearly more' than 1/6th of the total pop. That's about 18,535,300 people - And of course there are other European groups in Mexico such as the French, Italians, Germans etc. But no European group nearly as large as the Spanish one. I should also mention that no one is counting Mestizos which puts the figure of "people with Spanish ancestry in Mexico" much, much higher - a fact that you seem not to believe - with your little illustration. Well, you can believe it.


 * According to your mentalilty, living in a different country takes away an Iberian's (and their unmixed descendants) Spanish blood... Their blood doesn't magically "transform" just from being in Mexico or any other country (for how ever long it might be - hundreds of years to a couple decades or less). You ask "what have all those millions to be counted as 'ethnically Spanish'"... And you answered your own question: The fact that they ARE ethnically Spanish. If you have a basic grasp on Mexican history, you'll know that most Europeans in Mexico are Spanish and most Mestizos are of the Spanish variety - without needing anyone else to tell you. Here's an important concept: 'Immigration'! - and it has happened for almost 500 YEARS (Spain to Mexico). By the way, you might like to know that there are more people of Spanish ancestry in Latin America than in Spain itself.


 * Also, the 'regions of significant populations' were "erased based on presumed ancestry and the white race"... So that means your presumed "Spanish" ancestry is incorrect as well? We can even go a step farther and ask "How do we know you are not 1/8 Arab or North African?" - and you may be. The fact that you might live in Spain isn't concrete evidence of anything according to your own thinking process. That is a ridiculous move, to erase other Spanish populations because you and others like you think they are "presumed". C.Kent87 (talk) 23:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You're right, I have Arab ancestry but I'm not an ethnic Arab. Because ethnicity is about culture, not ancestry.
 * You seem to like the Britannica, so I've copied here what they have to say about ethnicity:
 * Ethnicity: Ethnicity refers to the identification of a group based on a perceived cultural distinctiveness that makes the group into a “people.” This distinctiveness is believed to be expressed in language, music, values, art, styles, literature, family life, religion, ritual, food, naming, public life, and material culture.....
 * So, as soon as you find any serious source that defines an ethnicity in terms of presumed ancestry, we can go on with the discussion. Meanwhile, I cling to the consensus reached in a previous discussion, and I revert again your edit. --Jotamar (talk) 15:52, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

@Jotomar: Whatever the discussion or "agreements" that people have reached in this article to "decide" who has Spanish ancestry is purely ORIGINAL RESEARCH. Wikipedia is a place to include information that is sourced and verifiable. You can't delete information based in what you "think". You have to stick to the rules and most importantly, to the sources. Your attitude is not constructive. It seems that rather than helping us find the "right sources" to sustain the amount of Mexicans with Spanish ancestry, you're up to DENY that such ancenstry exist in the Mexican population. In other words, you're just being what people might think is racism.  Alex Covarrubias  ( Talk? )  23:01, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

I'll devise a solution for this discussion, hopefully a definitive one, in some weeks when I have enough free time. --Jotamar (talk) 16:59, 26 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Having Spanish ancestry does not make a person "Spanish". Being Spanish is a mater of nationality and of feeling to belong to the Spanish people. I'm pretty sure that Mexicans do not feel to be Spanish, since they have their own Mexican ethnic feeling. Millions of humans may have ancestors from what is now Spain and from any other part of the world, because humans first appered in Africa, and later they left Africa and started to populate the rest of the world, so we all have ancestors who lived in different parts of the world. A person from China may have remote ancestors who lived in Spain centuries and centuries before that part of the world became Spain.

What I'm saying is that ancestry is not important at all to claim a person as Spanish. How about adopted children? How many people may think they have Spanish ancestry from a Spanish great-grandparent, when in fact the grandparent was adopted by that Spanish person? I heard that 10% of the world population have recent ancestors who were actually adopted children. Then, a person may think to be of Spanish ancestry, when in the reality the person may have 0% of Spanish blood. In fact race, ancestry or ethnicity are all part of popular imagination, it denotes what people think they are, not the reality. Spaniards are people from Spain, or people born abroad who self-reported to be Spanish. People with remote Spanish ancestors are not Spaniards. Opinoso (talk) 01:56, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Opinoso, what you say is what I was trying to explain. --Jotamar (talk) 16:11, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Ask anybody about their ethnicity and ancestry is central, but in itself it is not enough as to ones identity. Culture also matters as much as ancestry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.221.29.182 (talk) 00:28, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Pending changes
This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Pending changes/Queue  are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Pending changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:07, 17 June 2010 (UTC).

People related by ancestry
About the 80m of Mexicans with Spanish ancestry. I don't know the figure. I was just using the figures that were already on the site.

My point was that if we are talking about the number of spaniards abroad, which is one of the categories, in the States there's only 72 thousands, not the figure that is been shown in the site, wich referes to americans from the states with spanish ancestry and not to spanish nationals.

If you are not happy with the figures about Mexicans with spanish ancestry, you're very welcome to improve the site concerning that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bertuccio (talk • contribs) 07:09, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Presumed Spanish Ancestry
Hi there i just wondering if we can make just one table with presumed spanish ancestry people with the most important amounts of people with spanish ancestry people because if we put here every single one person with spanish ancestry we will must every single country of latin america but all over the countries that had been part of the spanish empire or i f we consider  every single spanish person  in the world we should put every single country  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.229.184.27 (talk) 01:49, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

What about Uruguay?
Here practically half of the population descends from spanish people ( the other half being mostly of italian descent), mainly galicians, but from many other regions of Spain too. Many people have both spanish and italian ancestry.--Knight1993 (talk) 00:09, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

80,000,000 in Mexico?
Mexicans with Spanish ancestry are in total 80 million people, but the criollos are only 15% of the total population of Mexico (approximately 16 million criollos).
 * Or 18-20 million. And yes, "Mexicans with Spanish ancestry are in total 80 million people"... And it is entered in the 'Related Category'. Yet User talk:190.209.46.146 keeps reverting and edit warring about it. All with Spanish ancestry - "related" - need to be counted. Other countries should be edited to reflect that as well. C.Kent87 (talk) 10:24, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

The European descent Argentina's population is 98%, 95.4% in Chile, 97% in Uruguay, in Mexico only 70% (included mestizos), C.Kent87 is obsessed with adding mestizos of Mexico as Criollos ( Latin Americans descendants of Spanish) which in Mexico are only 9% according to the CIA or 16% according to the Encyclopedia Britannica. Yes add mestizos in Mexico, we do every Latin American country. Therefore, until we agree, only add the "Criollo" (the direct Spanish descendant of Latin American). --190.209.46.146 (talk) 00:08, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Your information is incorrect. Argentina's white pop is around 86%. More than 8% are Mestizo and many in the "white" category have some Amerindian ancestry (as University of Buenos Aires research revealed 56% of "whites" have some admixture.) And Chile is nowhere near that for White people - Chile counts MESTIZOS AND WHITES together. Most are Mestizo, but call themselves white. So nice try.


 * But we're talking about Mexico. And we're talking about those who descend from Spain. That's criollos AND Mestizos. Even on a low estimate it would be more like 80%. And we don't have to add just criollos... that's the POINT. It is RELATED peoples. Those that have ethnic Spaniards as ancestors, mestizos included. Please go ahead and add up all numbers for all countries. C.Kent87 (talk) 03:28, 8 January 2010 (UTC)


 * in Article Only include ethnic Spanish, as in the other articles on ethnic groups that exist on wikipedia.


 * in Article Only include ethnic Spanish, as in the other articles on ethnic groups that exist on wikipedia.


 * In Mexico they live only 10 million ethnic Spanish in Argentina 25, in Brazil 15, and Chile 9.5 million. Kent Please finish your acts vandalicin this article that has always treated on AMOUNT of people with Spanish nationality and the persons ethnic Spanish

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.46.53.131 (talk • contribs)
 * Again, you are misinformed. A source that YOU uphold gives chile 8 million, not "9.5". And Mexico's is more like 18 million. C.Kent87 (talk) 01:04, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

This isn't an article on "Spanish ancestry", it is the article about the "Spanish people", i.e. the people of Spanish nationality. The "genetics section" is quite clearly a confused mess and I suggest we stub it for the time being. If you want to discuss the "ethnic Spanish" of Mexico or Argentinia, the least you can do is present excellent sources to back up your claims, under WP:REDFLAG. --dab (𒁳) 18:15, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Deleting the related category leaves the history of THE Spanish people very blank - Isn't this about the group who sailed to other lands spreading their seed more than any other group in history? Or did they become obsolete when they left a Spanish port headed for Latin America? There are millions and millions with Spanish ancestry - and it is THEIR ancestors who were "Spanish people".


 * At the very least there needs to be a section on immigration like the "Populations with French ancestry" in French people - Even Mexico has been kept listed there! Yes, it is difficult to find perfect sources, but let's be srious here. Did Spaniards go to these different lands and mold them? or not? Did they come by the hundreds of thousands? Yes. It is not going beyond reality to see that these numbers that have been listed are in fact the closest we can get to correct. These Spanish people who immigrated didn't leave behind thier ancestry. They chose to move themselves - and their heritage, and this is their legacy. How does this not fit in with an article on "Spanish people"? C.Kent87 (talk) 13:13, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Clearly, this article (Spanish People) is wrongly using Spanish and Spaniards as synonyms. They are NOT.

While most Spaniards are Spanish, most Spanish are not Spaniards. Only Spanish from Spain are Spaniards. Spanish from Argentina are Argentinians and from Mexico are Mexicans, etc.

And Spanish from Spain are only part of the Spaniards demographic. Some Spaniards are not Spanish. Some are Catalans, for example. While they are both Latinos, some Spaniards are not Latinos or Spanish, specifically the Basques... but they are Spaniards.

Also, not all Latinos are Spanish or Spaniards. Some are Portuguese, Italians, Brazilians, Romanians, French and the less known Friulians... and many more even less known disappearing ethnicities.

Hispanic is an incorrect USA invented word to mean Spanish speaking Americans(North and South)as a more politically correct word, compared to Latino. Brazilians, in particular are neither Spanish nor Hispanic..but they are Latinos, which USA incorrectly does not recognize. In other words, USA congress does not include Brazilians in Latino category despite their Portuguese language.

Wikipedia MUST take note of these words and use them separately and correctly...they are not synonyms: Spanish, Spaniard, Latino, and Hispanic.

This article can be disparaging to politically and historically conscious non-Spanish Spaniards. It is disconcerting to me, a Spanish speaking Filipino-American with Spaniard heritage, my Father's mother(Maria Caridad Esperanza Lopez Nadal)being a lady from Mallorca. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.172.173.176 (talk) 15:37, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * It has to do with English grammatical issues. Spaniard/s are NOUNS! so I was chuckling reading your post hugh "Spaniards demographic", "Spaniard heritage" hehehe sounds like bad grammar to my ear. Now replace that with Spanish and it sounds much better. They refer to Pau Gasol as a Spanish basketball player not a Spaniard basketball player...like I said Grammar. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.213.251.144 (talk) 01:08, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Pau Gassol is an Spanish basketball player which his mother language is Catalan, not Spanish..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.39.162.42 (talk) 19:34, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * If Gassol isn't Spanish who is? Fernando Alonso is an Asturian, Fernando Torres is a Castilian and Rafael Nadal is a Mallorcan just a Gassol is a Catalan but they are all equally Spanish. And what about the Galicians, Spanish Basques, Valencians, Andalusians, etc? Think of the British for example: An Englishman isn't Scottish and a Scot isn't Welsh or English, and would be offended if you called him one, but even though they are different nationalities they are all British nationalities and British historical nations even though they weren't always united in the past and have their own languages, although they use English as their common one in the same way the Spanish use Castilian as their common language.

Suggested move
The USA census has started to use the term Spanish in the census along side Hispanic and Latino and do to the fact that people use the term shorthand for anybody who speaks Spanish in the English speaking world(though of course that is silly but it is the reality) i suggest this be moved to Spaniards rather than Spanish people to avoid confusion being this is English language Wikipedia--Wikiscribe (talk) 16:01, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
 * A For other uses... template over the heading should be enough to avoid any confusion. --Jotamar (talk) 16:40, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * You don't hear people calling US and Canadian citizens "British".

Spanish people is ambiguous in the English speaking world i.e it can mean a Dominican a Honduran a Puerto Rican and in turn these people may commonly refer to themselves as Spanish that is one of the reasons the USA census added Spanish along side Latino Hispanic, to avoid any ambiguity i suggest moving it to Spaniards being that term is not ambiguous and is more common name for nationality for people coming from Spain which is what this article is about people from Spain Europeans not Latin Americans--Wikiscribe (talk) 17:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "Spanish" is only ambigious in the USA because of the US census and slang usage that arose from it. In other parts of the English speaking world it retains its centuries old and unambigous meaning of people and things of Spain, not from the Americas or elsewhere. People from elsewhere may have Spanish ancestry, just like they may have British or French ancestry, partly or fully, but that is not in itself sufficient to make them "Spanish" - just as you don't call somebody from California "British" becasue he has British ancestry somewhere in the past and he speake English. He is a Californian.


 * This is not true, it is the USA as far as i know, maybe Australians, Canadians or enlish speaking caribbeans can tell us what it means when they generally hear the words spanish people..In Uk and Ireland the term spanish only reafers to people from spain...almost 100% of the time the term Spanish is used when speaking about spain..and above all, changing it to spaniards, which i personally hardly ever used maybe 10% of the time, would be giving in to the correct usage of the word. it seems strange that this happens and yet they dont call a Jamaican or Australian English people do they?...nope didnt think so. I do understand the suggestion though. It is true that the term in the US census is badly used even in the 1980 census spanish is the term used to group all spanish speaking heritage, which is why the example given in the census if your Hispanic is Spaniard. The three terms Latino Hispanic and Spanish seem to be used, will it end at just 3?..since the term Hispanic and Spanish are literally the same root in origin, if you read the Spain article and click on the Latin languae version what comes up. Hispania, and the language they speak?..Lingua Hispanica. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.177.171.20 (talk) 01:28, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

That does not matter the article title should best reflect what the article is about in a world view and Spaniards best reflect that,also do not try to insinuate that if for example i went to England and referred to the people of Spain as Spaniards they would look at me like i got 4 heads because you know darn well Europeans know what a Spaniard is it is a very common term through out the world for the people of Spain and it has more than 7 and a half million hits on google so it is not obscure--Wikiscribe (talk) 19:18, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

ISP user as i said Spaniards has no ambiguity to it, Spanish people can notice how this dictionary uses the word Spanish similar to the way Hispanic gets used by other dictionaries it can mean anybody you comes from a Spanish speaking origin and my proof is the USA census and ambiguity with dictionary meanings,i am not saying Spanish People is wrong because it is not but the term better suited for this article is Spaniard because i have yet to find any ambiguity with this definition and it only gets used to mean people who are native to Spain where Spanish people can have a more generic meaning in other places, wrong or right, as silly as it is that is the way it is ,switching it to Spaniard there will be no ambiguity the only people that get called that are people from Spain nobody else,so in the best interest of keeping a world wide view i suggest it get moved to Spaniards and if nobody comes in soon with a logical encyclopedic reason why not it will be moved--Wikiscribe (talk) 04:26, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

I completly understand what your saying, but in Europe the most common term is just spanish, with people using the term spaniards much less often. The UK has the second highest english speaking population after the US and we never hear about the term spanish being used in any other way, honestly, and just because the USA used this definition doesnt make it right. Also, has there actually been any misunderstanding of the usage of Spanish people since this article started?...has anyone actually suggested that it means someting else. It may be hard to beleive since im guessing the usage in the US is quite common?? even if they are not of spanish ancestry. It's pure stupidity on behalf of the the Americans. Infact it is hard for some of us to understand since we dont encouter this problem here. Since this is an international used site, we really do need to know what the Australians think and canadians since they are the highest number of native english speakers after the US and UK. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.183.232.4 (talk) 18:13, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

That does not matter the article title should best reflect what the article is about in a world view and Spaniards best reflect that,also do not try to insinuate that if for example i went to England and referred to the people of Spain as Spaniards they would look at me like i got 4 heads because you know darn well Europeans know what a Spaniard is it is a very common term through out the world for the people of Spain and it has more than 7 and a half million hits on Google so it is not obscure--Wikiscribe (talk) 19:18, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I read once that one fifth of Americans think Spain is in South America! At least this mean four fifths know where the country is and i seriously doubt that most of these people would be confused by using the term "Spanish" for a European people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.110.188.223 (talk) 00:04, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Number of Spanish people in Spain
The introduction of this article leads one to believe that it is about Spanish people of European ethnicity. It says there are 41,242,592 Spanish people in Spain, that's 88%. But in the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Spain, it says that "Native-born Spanish citizens of all races and ethnic groups make up 88% of the total population, and 12% are immigrants." Many native born Spanish people aren't ethnically European despite having Spanish nationality, in fact in this other article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Spain it says that "In the same way the majority of children born in Spain between 2000 and 2010 are children of immigrants despite not counting as such."

Moreover, Spain grants nationality to immigrants from South America after 2 years of residence and after 10 for others. Assuming that a sizable portion of these immigrants have obtained Spanish nationality, there is no way the number is near 41,242,592. The article linked to says explicitly that the 12% figure is about people with no Spanish nationality.

The birth rate among ethnic European Spanish people has been way below the replacement level since decades ago when the population was around 38 million. I suggest either of two things, if this article isn't about Spanish ethnicity, then delete the figures of people of Spanish ancestry who aren't from Spain, make it clear in the introduction that this figure includes people of European, Amerindian and North African descent and add approximate numbers for each.

If this article IS about Spanish people of European ancestry, then round the number of the ones living in Spain to ~35 million. If no citation can be provided for this number then remove the figure altogether and add "it is thought that...". Right now this article is completely misleading for people trying to find a figure of Spanish people of European ancestry living in Spain.

For the moment I will replace the first paragraph of the introduction to one similar to what the article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_people has. "French people refers to people born in France and the legal residents and citizens of France, regardless of ancestry." Except that I can't provide a reference to a constitutional article. This change implies further changes in the rest of the article because it doesn't reflect what the article is about. I will wait until someone replies to this comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.39.171.17 (talk) 12:06, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Then change the numbers. Sourced, of course. The French people question is more complex due to legal definitions in France that deny the concept of ethnicity. The Ogre (talk) 14:08, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't provide source. I can't find any valid secondary source but that doesn't mean that the 41 million figure is correct. I can provide source to show that the 41 million figure is wrong but not to show that the real figure is around 35 million. Like many other European countries Spain doesn't keep track of ethnicity, so I don't know any way a valid sourced number could be put there except the ~35 million estimation which of course I can't add. I suggest simply changing the number to Unknown. Can I do this?


 * I would also like to raise another issue of consistency that I have seen across Wikipedia. The French people article is NOT about the French ethnicity, the Spanish people IS about the Spanish ethnicity, the Swedish people article IS about the Swedish ethnicity while the German article is NOT. There are more but you get the message. Not only that but if you go to the article Germany for example, under Ethnicity it will list 91% Germans which is actually the number of people with German nationality, not of ethnic Germans which is actually lower. Also the word "Germans" next to the percentage links to the article Germans which isn't about the German ethnicity. Same for Spain where it says 88%. This is wrong information which I think should be revised for every article of each country. Where you can't know the percentage it should say Unknown instead of having wrong information. I would make the changes right now but I want your confirmation because I'm pretty sure they will be deleted otherwise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.39.171.17 (talk) 17:53, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The reason for this discrepancy is that I have only recently started going through some articles on European nations in order to fact-check them. There is no such thing as an "ethnic German" as of today, nor any clear way to determine whether someone belongs to this imaginary group. There is an article on Volksdeutsche which is sort of the same. You can look at the talk pages Talk:Germans], [[Talk:Danes, Talk:Norwegians and Talk:Austrians. On each one of theme I've gone through all the sources about allegedly "ethnic" people from those countries living somewhere else in the world, only to conclude that the numbers show completely different things and cannot be compared. Most European countries define being an X as having citizenship in that country with a few exceptions -- such as the Danish minority in Southern Schleswig or the Austrian minority in South Tyrol who are seen as respectively Danish and Austrian although they don't have citizenship, and on the other hand the Samii people in Norway who are not Norwegians although they have Norwegian citizenship. In all these cases this is however a completely voluntary act for the individual -- meaning that the individual has to decide whether he feels like he is a South Schleswigan Danish minority person or a Samii. Most likely the case is the same for those European nations I have not looked at so far. If you have the time to do so, please go ahead and check the references and document it well why certain figures don't work or how it is defined to be a Spanish, Dutch or Swede by the given state's institutions before changing the corresponding article. --Johanneswilm (talk) 22:06, 15 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for answering. Then I think if there isn't such a thing as "ethnic German" in the section Ethnicity for Germany it shouldn't say 91% German. Same for the other countries, including 88% in the article Spain. There is not an issue about what it is to be a Spaniard or Swede, they could be of any ethnicity. Even if a Middle Eastern person has lived in Sweden all his life but doesn't have Swedish nationality he would feel more Swedish than anything and probably in anyone's opinion he would in fact be a Swede. There is a distinction here about what it is to be from a country and what is to belong to a certain ethnic group. The former is subjective while the latter one isn't if by ethnic we are talking about ancestry, if no real number can be provided then none should be provided at all.


 * You could say that the ethnic groups of Spain are 75% European, 10% Amerindian, 10% North African and 5% Sub-Saharan African (made up numbers). What does being ethnic Spanish mean then? In my first edit I added "regardless of ancestry" to the introduction but the other editor said it was about "ethnic Spaniards". The issue here is that the numbers and percentages across all Wikipedia articles for European countries are mixing two different concepts and providing the wrong figures. I will gladly try to document it as well as I can and won't change any more pages until I've a senior editor's confirmation but I think editing is the only way to get attention unless I write in your talk page. Please read this other comment I added on this other editor's talk page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Tbhotch.


 * Meanwhile I think the references I provided are enough to justify that the 41 million figure is wrong from what the other editor implied this article is about. I won't change anything else but I think it should say Unknown here as well as in the percentage of the section ethnicity in the article Spain. Thanks again. --Grondolf (talk) 22:45, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The number presented according to that source is "Spanish citizens living in Spain". The figure given for all the countries marked with 3 and those for Chile are also "Spanish citizens living in country X". The figure given for Australia is however people who have ancestors from Spain. The figure given for the Netherlands and Denmark are not clearly defined and are based upon user submitted data which the website referenced claims not to be able to verify. These figures are not compatible. There is no such thing as an "ethnic Spanish". The body text should be changed to make clear that Spanish = citizen of Spain. The figure given for Spanish in Spain is however correct. I completely understand what you mean by a person feeling more Spanish although they don't have Spanish citizenship. Unfortunately that lies outside the definition of what it is to be Spanish. I will therefore go ahead and delete the figures for Australia, Netherlands and Denmark as well as redefine within the text what "Spanish" means. --Johanneswilm (talk) 23:45, 15 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you. This is what I replaced the first paragraph with in my first edit. "Spanish people or Spaniards refers to people born in Spain and the legal residents and citizens of Spain, regardless of ancestry. This includes people of European, North African and Amerindian ancestry among others." I think it is important to emphasize that in the introduction so it doesn't lead to confusion. Please check the percentage for Ethnicity in the infobox for the article Germany and the article Swedes which explicitly states ethnic group yet the figure is for citizens. I'll look for more but the Ethnicity section in the infobox exists for almost every country, the figures can't be accurate because these countries don't keep track of ethnicity and the numbers are for citizens--Grondolf (talk) 00:06, 16 February 2011 (UTC).

Major cleanup
Spanish people/Spaniards are defined as citizens of Spain http://www.definicionabc.com/geografia/espanol.php. I therefore go ahead and delete all the figures that do no define this but something else and those numbers which are purely based on user-submitted data that the website claims not to be able to verify (joshuaproject & US/Australian census, see Talk:Norwegians).--Johanneswilm (talk) 00:28, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Further, I remove the footnotes for the country numbers, as these make reference to other groups (Spanish Americans are not the same as citizens of Spain who reside in the US).--Johanneswilm (talk) 00:28, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

I removed the race stuff about Latin America, as is highly questionable unreferenced material and should be dealt with on a page about Latin America. I removed the geo-location data about Spain, as that should be on the page about Spain.--Johanneswilm (talk) 00:28, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

I also made some linguistic changes so that not everyone who learns to speka Catalan automatically becomes a Catalan, etc. --Johanneswilm (talk) 00:28, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Spanish Languages
"The official language of Spain is Spanish (español or castellano)" This must be corrected. The official languages of Spain are: Euskera, Galizian, Catalan their respective regions and Castillian which is the only one that official in all Spain. Officially in Spain there is no Spanish languages, where are referred as Spanish languages in plural as there are different. In the Americas Castillian language is named Spanish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.39.162.42 (talk) 19:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Please find references for this claim, then I can help you. --Johanneswilm (talk) 00:48, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Not related to the above, I notice that the linguistic map about 1/2way down the right side has a yellow block for Leonese, but that it does not appear on the map above. Is there any way to remedy that easily? Idk if it was just included as part of Asturian on the map, or if it belongs in the red part of Northern Leon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vreundl8 (talk • contribs) 22:42, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

VANDALISMO
ESTE COMENTARIO LO ESCRIBO EN ESPAÑOL,POR QUE LO MAS PROBABLE QUE ESTE ARTICULO SOBRE ESPAÑOLES ETNICOS, HAYA SIDO VANDALIZADO POR ALGUN MEXICANO ACOMPLEJADO, QUE EXCLUYO A LOS MILLONES DE URUGUAYOS Y CHILENOS QUE SON ETNICA Y CULTURALMENTE ESPAÑOLES, ES COSA DE VISITAR SANTIAGO O MONTEVIDEO Y TE DAS CUENTA QUE ESTAS EN UN PAIS DE RAIGAMBRE HISPANICA, EN CAMBIO MEXICO ES UN PAIS ETNICA Y CULTUARALMENTE EXOTICO Y NO OCCIDENTAL Y POR ENDE NO CUENTA CON 80 MILLONES DE ESPAÑOLES ETNICOS, ESO ES UNA SOBERANA MENTIRA. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.86.78.253 (talk) 00:11, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

SPANISH AMERICANS
If on the presumed Spanish ancestry section, it is about PRESUMED Spanish ancestry, then shouldn't most Mexican Americans and most other Hispanic/Latinos in the USA be added to the stat in USA? Surely the amount of people with Spanish ancestry is not 0.8%, given that Mexican Americans alone are over 10% of the American populace, and then 6% of other Latin Americans. And given that the grand majority of these have Spanish ancestry.--Fernirm (talk) 00:36, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I have a feeling they are refering to americans with familly born in spain. Tracing lineage from Latino/Americans through to spanish blood ties from several hundred years ago seems quite pointless, and not relevant to this article.P0PP4B34R732 (talk) 01:26, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from, 24 November 2011
Currently in the introduction of the Spanish people it states,

"The official language of Spain is Spanish (español or castellano), the standard language based on the mediaeval dialect of the Andalus of central Spain. There are several regional languages; with the exception of Basque, the languages native to Spain are Romance languages, Spanish is a mixture of Arabic mostly Andalusian Arabic and Berber with some extra Latin words of ancient origin."

however the statements that the castilian language/castellano is based on the mediaeval dialect of the Andalus region of Spain is simply wrong. As is confirmed with sources on the actual Spanish Language wikipedia page located here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_language, Castilian(in spanish Castellano), also commonly known in the Americas as the Spanish Language, is an Indo European Romance Language which developed in North-Central Iberia and then spread into the more southern parts of Spain, replacing vulgar latin and andalusian arabic spoken Berbers and other Muslim peoples. In more concrete terms, the development of the Castilian language has its origin in North-Central Castile(of which the name of the language derives) and is structurally based on Latin(approximately 75% vocabulary) with lexicon influences from Germanic, Arabic, Celtic, Native American languages, etc.

More eloquently described here,

"Words of non-Latin origin

Some authors estimate that seventy-five percent of Spanish words have come from Latin[9] and were in use in Spain before the Common Era. The remaining 25 percent come from other languages. Of these languages (and language families), the four which have contributed the most words are Arabic, Indigenous languages of the Americas, Germanic, and Celtic in roughly that order."

located on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influences_on_the_Spanish_language which is a good source for anything related to the Spanish Language.

Also,

"Local versions of Vulgar Latin evolved into Castilian in the central-north of Iberia, in an area defined by the then remote crossroad strips of Alava, Cantabria, Burgos, Soria and La Rioja, within the Kingdom of Castile (see Glosas Emilianenses). In this formative stage, Castilian developed a strongly differing variant from its close cousin, Leonese, and was distinguished by a heavy Basque influence (see Iberian Romance languages). "

as Leonese is a language spoken in Northern Castile/Asturias which is located in one of the most geographic north regions of Spain it can be concluded that the "close cousin" of Spanish is thus also evolved in northern Spain and not in the south.

The fact stated that "Spanish is a mixture of Arabic and Berber with some Latin words of ancient origin" is a complete fallacy as anyone knows that Spanish is not an arabic or berber language, or even a mixture thereof. Rather Spanish is a Western Romance language, based on Vulgar Latin, with internal and external lexical influences primarily from Basque, Arabic, Languages of the Americas, Germanic, and Celtic.

It surprises me that a page such as the spanish language, can have such wrong information.

Tepermithia (talk) 19:07, 24 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I cannot edit it as you request, because Wikipedia is not a reliable source.  Chzz  ► 21:41, 27 November 2011 (UTC)


 * The statements that User:Tepermithia mentions were just common vandalizing, and they are mended now. Jotamar (talk) 17:13, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

American Number
American number is people who claim spanish as their ancestry, not the number of real spanish in America, like all the others countries have, please somebody fix that — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.59.14.181 (talk) 21:21, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Proposal to rename article "Spaniards", Spaniards has more search hits than "Spanish people"
Due to these results, I propose by WP:COMMON NAME that the article be renamed Spaniards.--R-41 (talk) 18:20, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The Google search: "Spanish people" -wikipedia (excluding Wikipedia results) has about 3,550,000 results
 * The Google search: Spaniards -wikipedia (excluding Wikipedia results) has about 15,500,000 results

What is a Spanish Brazilian?
There were around 720.000 recent Spaniard immigrants to Brazil. It is a pretty number. But it is hard to know how many people would have a Spanish descent. First, because they were easily integrated into Brazilian society, and the main waves of European immigration to Brazil stopped around 1930—1940. From the Lithuanians to the Galicians, from the Scandinavians to the Balkanese, most third generation European Brazilians outside "colonies" in Southern and Southeastern Brazil had some other ancestry, presumably the melting pot that is White Brazilian (Got it? Overwhelming majority of us have some minoritarian ancestry from elsewhere in the world, white in any means is equated with European much less "pure" European). And Spanish immigration to Brazil was a very urban phenomena, immigrating mostly in the early 20th century. Second, it is not simple to discern Portuguese DNA from Spaniard DNA.

Finally, third, there was a massive presence of Spaniars in (naturally...) both Colonial and Imperial Brazil. More than a half of modern Rio Grande do Sul was under the Spanish Crown. They influenced not only in the easily-distinguishable dialect of the "Brazilian gaucho", but also on their ancestry. In the Brazilian Pampa, according to genetic researches (I do not know their method), there is more Spaniard and Amerindian DNA combined in the genome of the populace than Portuguese and African DNA together. Then, almost all the descendants of the gaúchos are in some degree descendants of the Spaniards. There are also the phenomena of other South Americans (mostly White when not from Bolivia and a wide minority of those from Paraguay, presumably of Spanish descent) immigrating to Brazil. Why not, Spanish families stablishing themselves in "recent" Portuguese history and some of them coming to Brazil (BTW, how I probably do have some little Spanish ancestry, from the 16th and/or 17th centuries, I can also declare more or less half a dozen of European ancestries doing this anyway). Do you understand what I mean? Tentative methods of imaginating the number of Spanish Brazilians are mostly unscientifical. It is weird to discredit presence in Colonial Brazil either (what about French Canadian/American, Anglo-Celtic Australian, etc.?). Lguipontes (talk) 12:32, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Regions with significant populations
I see in this category that the page shows that the country with more spaniards is the USA with 625,562

I must point out that the actual number of spaniards livin in USA is 72,730. The 625 thousands would be americans with spanish ancestry, which is shown later down.

So please fix this, because it is totally inaccurate.

The fact that in the States people consider themselves spaniards just because they have spanish ancestry does not make them more spanish than the estimated 80 million of people with spanish ancestry in Mexico, or the 30 million in Argentina.

The same for Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bertuccio (talk • contribs) 15:07, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

Again I see the US as the region with the largest amount of Spaniards........ which is obviously false because the number of spaniards living the US is arount 72 thousand, not 625 thousands.... if you count americans with spanish ancestry, then you'd also have to include all the latin americans with spanish ancestry, in which case 80% Argentina should be considered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bertuccio (talk • contribs) 12:12, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

Genetic info
I notice that information about Population Genetics has been added to the page. Some time ago, that kind of information was moved from this page to a new one, Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula, and I still think that is the best place to put it. Jotamar (talk) 17:13, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Me too. for some reason some people prefer single articles never again duplicated over dozens others to write articles in Wiki. It is funny the agenda that one has to see over and over again. Anyway, for people interested in genetitics of Spain here you can find lots of updated articles and studies on the subject:

http://anthrospain.blogspot.com/2011/07/r1b-frequencies-in-spain-and-europe.html

Pook. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.74.163.240 (talk) 01:50, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I removed the Genetic content which, as stated above, has its very own article. The information merely regurgitates a topic which was removed by vote. Missileblues (talk) 13:26, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Physical appearance
This section is absurd. Trying to generalize the physical appearance of more than 40 million people is a nonsense. All the actual scientific information is included in the genetics section, so I'll delete this entry.--Infinauta (talk) 10:46, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * No worries. That was added by an IP user today.  Davtra   (talk) 11:16, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Agree with first observation. Total nonsense. You might as well say 'Irish people are well known for their characteristic red hair', or 'Germans are blue-eyed blonds in general'. Agree with removal. RashersTierney (talk) 11:38, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

The reason I like to put the characteristics (different hair and eye colors and their frequencies) is these are also given in the article Portuguese people. Help me with this, because the frequencies of the hair and eye colors of Portuguese people may be different in Spanish people, please?! Of course, majority of Spaniards have dark brown or black hair and brown and hazel eyes. How about for blond, red, auburn, and chestnut hair colors and blue and green eyes? FILWISE (talk) 07:20, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Many Spaniards have Native American ancestry due to Latin Ametican immigration since the 1500s. Many Spaniards are of direct Latin American (Peruvian, Ecuadorian, Colombian) descent through a large immigration to Spain since 1980s. A lot of Spaniards have Peruvia or Colombian parents, so Amerindian ancestry is very important in Spain and the Latin American (Amerindian and African) influence in Spanish culture is huge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.44.111.112 (talk) 15:56, 14 May 2013 (UTC)