Talk:Spanish missions in California

Contested source
The writer Gregory Orfalea is used as a source for what I consider to be questionable claims about the causes of indigene population decline. Readers should note that Orfalea is not a professional historian. WCCasey (talk) 04:29, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Can we downscale the claim, or do you think it is totally fringe and has no room in the article whatsoever?--Ymblanter (talk) 08:27, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * While he's not a professional historian, he's written a book about Juniper Serra that has been credibly received. Not every source is going to provide pleasing info. Considering the other sources provided, Orfalea's info is balanced and is not given undue weight. His statements about Serra's treatment of indigenous natives stand up when compared to the many purposeful acts of spreading smallpox and mass murder committed against Indians in the mid-West and elsewhere. Orfalea confirms in the article that neophytes under Serra's authority were tracked down and beaten for leaving the mission, a common punishment in that time. He also acknowledges rape and instances of murder. You could add those to the article to give it more balance. — btphelps (talk to me) (what I've done) 10:46, 12 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Agree with most of what you said, but regarding deliberate a

smallpox spreading and mass murder commmited against the mid-West, I do think it is important to keep in mind that those acts were carried out by the Anglo-Americans, and that the MO of the Spanish in the New World was never to be physical genocide. Cultural, yes, but the Spanish absorbed the Indians into their own society and made no distinction once they'd been converted to Catholic "New Spaniards." Regarding tracking down and beating neophytes for leaving the mission: it is well known that this was a commom practice, and having it in the article is justified. Regarding rapes and murders, though: I would say that without reliable primary sources claims of that nature are dubious... Firejuggler86 (talk) 01:25, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Anti-Catholic Fake News
This article's claims, especially ones accusing the friars of kidnapping and mistreating natives, need much better documentation. I went ahead and deleted the more incendiary claims made by the "Indian in the Closet" essay, which does not cite any pertinent scholarship or primary sources. Carey McWilliams was not a scholar, but a socialist journalist. He should not be cited as if he were a historian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.225.160 (talk) 03:06, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Use of "Father" as a priest-title is unacceptable in Wikipedia
In Wikipedia, the names of priests should not be preceded by the title Father. Note this guideline concerning use of Father as a title:  Father  Use the Rev. in first reference before the names of Episcopal, Orthodox and Roman Catholic priests. On second reference use only the cleric’s last name. Use Father before a name only in direct quotations. (Religious titles | Religion Stylebook -- http://religionstylebook.com/entries/category/religion-and-culture/titles) Mksword (talk) 19:29, 2 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Use of the term Father or Father-Presidentes in this case is historic. During the time of the Californa Missions existence Father was the proper term.  Notice in the section itself individuals are references as The Rev..  I would argue that the first entry is actually wrong because here in California we are taught and we allways say Father Junípero Serra never Reverend Junípero Serra.


 * Robert.Harker (talk) 20:28, 2 September 2015 (UTC)


 * I went to the public library and checked the print encyclopedias there. Every one of them has an article about Junípero Serra.  In the following-listed encyclopedias, the Junípero Serra articles do not contain the word "Father":


 * Encyclopædia Britannica (2010)
 * World Book Encyclopedia (2015)
 * Encyclopedia Americana (2003)
 * Compton's Encyclopedia (1996)
 * Encyclopedia of World Biography (1998)
 * Encyclopedia of Religion (1987)
 * New Catholic Encyclopedia, 2nd edition (2003)
 * I found two enclopedias wherein the Junípero Serra article does contain the word "Father":


 * Catholic Encyclopedia (1912)
 * New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1st edition (1967)
 * I submit that the older Catholic encyclopedias use the word "Father" because of their explicit affiliation with Catholicism. Mksword (talk) 23:25, 9 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Surprisingly, WP:SECONDARY sources are preferred by Wikipedia, not tertiary sources such as other encyclopedias. There are plenty of secondary sources that use "Father" when discussing Serra and the California mission system:
 * LA Times: "Decision to canonize Father Junipero Serra draws divided reaction"
 * San Jose Mercury News: "Father Junipero Serra's sainthood protested at Mission San Juan Bautista"
 * ABC Channel 7 News: "Native Americans Protest Father Junipero Serra's Soon-to-Be Sainthood"
 * NY Times: "Last week, Pope Francis announced plans to canonize Father Serra"
 * KQED: "Pope Francis announced Thursday that he will canonize Father Junipero Serra"
 * The Sacramento Bee: "a measure seeking to replace a statue in Congress of Father Junípero Serra"
 * Orange County Register: "Did Father Serra abuse Native Americans?"
 * Washington Post: "Since 1931, the statue of Father Junipero Serra has stood in the U.S. Capitol building"
 * Because of this, I don't see any problem with Wikipedia using "Father" to establish somebody's historical title, then using their surname after that. Binksternet (talk) 00:25, 10 September 2015 (UTC)


 * The title "Father" connotes that the priest is religiously superior to others who are not accorded that title (notice that a priest directly addressed as "Father" may reply with "Yes, my son"). Further, only the priestly denominations afford that designation; the non-priestly denominations do not. Using exalting titles like "His Eminence" or "Father" for clergy of only a subset of the Christian denominations is inequitable.  Albert Barnes (a theologian and Presbyterian pastor) wrote the following in his notes on Matthew 23:9 :  "[T]he word 'father' also denotes authority, eminence, superiority, a right to command, and a claim to particular respect. In this sense it is used here. In this sense it belongs eminently to God, and it is not right to give it to men. Christian brethren are equal." (Source: Notes, Explanatory and Practical, on the Gospels by Albert Barnes, page 260.)


 * I am not referencing encyclopedias as sources for the content of a Wikipedia article. Rather, I examined the encyclopedias to establish what the standard practice is in religion-neutral encyclopedias.  Wikipedia is an encyclopedia; it's not a newspaper, TV station, or radio station.  Encyclopedias require a higher level of neutrality than what may be acceptable in popular media. The universal practice in religion-neutral encyclopedias is to not use "Father" as a title for priests, except when it occurs in a direct quotation.


 * A doctorate is a recognition of objectively proven mastery of an academic (or professional) field. It is customary to address a person who has earned a doctorate as "Dr. Xxxxxx".  Yet, in Wikipedia articles, the title "Dr." or "Doctor" is normally not prefixed to the names of persons who have earned doctorates.  Example Wikipedia articles:  Albert Einstein, Henry Kissinger, Stephen Hawking, Milton Friedman, Richard Feynman, Bertrand Russell, James Watson, Luis Walter Alvarez, William Shockley, Glenn T. Seaborg, Ernest Lawrence, Wilhelm Röntgen, Ivan Pavlov, Andrew Wiles, Hendrik Lorentz


 * Mksword (talk) 06:41, 11 September 2015 (UTC)


 * He is widely known as "Father Serra". more so than by any other name. SURELY you are not saying that WP:COMMONNAME must be disregarded in order to be in compliance with obscure church organisational technical points?? Firejuggler86 (talk) 01:49, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * That is the COMMONNAME. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:36, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

This discussion was moved to Talk:Junípero Serra a couple of weeks after it was initiated here in 2015. Per WP:TALKFORK, it ought to have been formally closed here but it wasn't. No one pursued it here anyway until this week but now that I see the situation I'm closing the discussion now. Largoplazo (talk) 11:18, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Life at the Spanish Missions.
Life at the Spanish Missions. 2601:CA:4300:A300:8914:69F9:3F8D:67A (talk) 19:26, 7 December 2023 (UTC)