Talk:Sparkling wine production

Untitled
HEY: the injection method results in aerated sparkling wine, at least in the EU!!! See Part II of Annex VII of Reg. (EU) No. 1308/2007!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.10.4.74 (talk) 07:16, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

How about renaming this Sparkling wine production, given that it's the same process used around the world, and it would allow incorporation of the otherwise-stubby Charmat process and some comparison of the different methods


 * I'd rather rename it Méthode Champenoise or Méthode Traditionelle. Although getting rid of the stubby Charmat process article would be nice, this topic is really important enough to be on its own. Maybe include a small section in Sparkling wine about production that links to this article and includes the important notes about the charmat process? ---  The Bethling (Talk) 03:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm torn on this one. The article originated as a splinter from the Champagne (wine) article and the title was directly linked to that. I like the title Méthode Champenoise, since that is what the majority of Sparkling wine produces actually put on the bottle. However, I can see editors objecting to that title on the use english principle. Bethling suggestion is one to think about but I am in favor of merging the Charmat article somewhere. AgneCheese/Wine 11:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Heh - it's weird seeing comments like "Méthode Champenoise... is what the majority of Sparkling wine produces actually put on the bottle", since that is emphatically not the case in Europe, the Champagne houses have lent on Brussels to pretty much ban the use of Méthode Champenoise on labels, instead you see Methode Traditionelle and its local equivalents (Metodo Classico etc). The European media have followed suit, so in English "traditional method" is pretty much all you ever see in print, eg Jancis : http://www.jancisrobinson.com/articles/wineweek030527 and Decanter : http://www.decanter.com/learning/facts/winery.php although people obviously still use 'Champenoise' when talking about it. I guess in time that will fade.  You're also starting to see other countries following suit - for instance the Aussies now primarily use Traditional Method (eg http://www.wineaustralia.com/Australia/Default.aspx?tabid=807) although the Kiwis tend to use Methode Traditionelle. I suspect US producers are a minority in still using Champenoise, and even then I suspect that it's limited to those who don't plan to export to Europe.
 * So if en:Wiki is to follow the Jancis/Decanter system, we end up with an article called 'Traditional method', or 'Traditional method of sparkling wine production'. One of which beggars the question "of doing what?" and the other is just a mouthful, which is tempting to reduce down to 'Sparkling wine production' by the merging of Charmat.  In principle I think I'd rather have Charmat in with the sparkling wine article and have this one as a standalone article, but given the current transition in the name of this one particular process, I'm going back to thinking that converting this article to 'Sparkling wine production' by the merger of Charmat gets us out of two holes. - —Preceding unsigned comment added by FlagSteward (talk • contribs)
 * Touché, you are right in that my comments do tip my hat towards my US-bias (where labels are obviously so blasé to us :p) While I'm still seeing a fair number of non-american & non-champenoise labels with Méthode Champenoise on my shelves, I do concede that Methode Traditionelle is popping up more and more. Like I said, this one is a toughie. It does deserve a good conversation.AgneCheese/Wine 08:05, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Just add some weight to FlagSteward's argument, all Cava has been labelled Métode Tradicional since the late 80s. I'm very much in favour of this name change; if the French want to be set apart from other bubblies we should respect that and make sure the word Champagne or derivatives thereof never head any article which includes anything other than wine from that specific region. It's only fitting that Méthode Champenoise be a subset of the more generic Sparkling wine production alongside the rest of them. I suppose it ought to be top of the list as the best-known name, although not necessarily because they were the 'inventors' of the method (you know the story, I assume?) heheh.. mikaultalk 11:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Action - I've been bold and renamed this article from Champagne production to Sparkling wine production, and done a fairly crude merge of Charmat process. Could do with some cleaning up. FlagSteward 14:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Merge Riddling
A Riddling merger has been discussed at Talk:Winemaking, where  The Bethling (Talk), FlagSteward,mikaultalk, Siobhan Hansa, Amatulic were all in favour of merging with Champagne production, AgneCheese/Wine was against a merger with Winemaking. If Agne27 can clarify what the opposition is to, then we can perhaps kill another of those pesky stubs.... FlagSteward 21:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I will drop my oppose for the time being for a merge here. I do think there is more history details and "trade secret" controversy that could be added to the article but at this point I don't have the time to work on it like I was to with Chaptalization. So merge away. AgneCheese/Wine 19:13, 11 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Done - I'm too tired to expand it now, could do with some copyediting as well, but another High stub bites the dust :-))) FlagSteward 23:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Cordon Negro
What exactly does Cordon Negro refer to?76.203.39.185 (talk) 03:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Is it mentioned in the article? I looked through it and didn't see it but I'm not sure why it would be in here anyways. I know it is a brand name for some Cava company (drawing a blank at the name) though I'm not sure the reasoning behind the name. Cordon refers to essentially wood part of a grapevine (trunks, branches, etc) so the name could mean "black vine" or maybe meant to reference black grapes like Pinot noir. AgneCheese/Wine 03:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

History?
Right now the homepage 'Did you know?' section says that "Englishman Christopher Merret wrote the first description of the méthode champenoise used to make sparkling wine, long before it was documented in the Champagne region of France". Interestingly enough, this article nor Sparkling wine itself makes any reference to Merret at all, and does not seem to describe the history of sparkling wine production. I'd be nice to have this added here. When was this process invented in the first place? Or does this go so far back into antiquity this is not clearly known? Martijn Faassen (talk) 00:31, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I just found this article, which seems well-researched and has a lot of citations itself. (It does refer to Merret as Morret, however). A summary of this (particularly the latter part where it goes into the origin of the sparkling bit) would be a good start. Should this be in this article or in Sparkling wines? Martijn Faassen (talk) 00:53, 13 January 2008 (UTC) http://www.maisons-champagne.com/traduction/english/bonal_gb/pages/01/01-01_gb.htm


 * As I understand it, the method was developed in England because the conditions were right there.  At the time England & Wales was a seafaring nation, and relied on substantial sized trees to manufacture wooden ships.  The trees of England were being consumed to warm homes and make charcoal to power furnaces (eg to make glass wine bottles).  In 1615 Admiral Sir Robert Mansell was so concerned that in future there would be insufficient trees that had been allowed to grow sufficiently large for ship building that he spoke to King James 1st.   James issued a Royal Proclamation that all furnaces should now use coal (Which England had in plenty) instead of wood or charcoal.   Coal burns hotter than charcoal and that makes stronger glass.  In England cork was used to seal bottles (In France tightly rolled fabric was used at the time).   Probably by accident, wine put in these bottles that still contained some yeast and sugar underwent secondary fermentation.   When this happened outside England, either the cloth bung was ejected by the pressure, or the weaker bottle broke.   In England a new sparkling wine was the result.  Decades later, in 1662, Christopher Merret documented the process and sent it to the Royal Society.   There is an article here: www.sirgordonbennett.com/british-fizz, but I imagine more authoritative histories are available.  FreeFlow99 (talk) 18:51, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

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Production method and bubble size?
The article currently hints on that depending on the production method, a sparkling wine may have varying bubble sizes. Why is that? What causes the bubbles to be of different sizes (e.g. supposedly small for Charmat process, and supposedly large for direct carbon dioxide injection)? I thought carbon dioxide is carbon dioxide. --Abdull (talk) 10:10, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

I would agree. I've researched this many times for beer, and have never found that production method makes a difference. Here's an article stating that bubble size is largely based on solution composition. http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/12/031216075207.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.36.94.34 (talk) 15:45, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

Content moved from this article
I recently moved a fair deal of content from this article to a new article Traditional method. The reason for splitting the original article was that there was so much more content on one of the seven methods for production of sparkling wine that the six remaining methods, that represent by far the larger share of the total sparkling wine production, appeared to be mere curiosities. --Klättermusen (talk) 05:51, 23 May 2016 (UTC)