Talk:Speaker of the Croatian Parliament

Pre-independence office-holders
I added the pre-1990 office-holders to the list, but Sundostund removed them. I don't know why. I think they are of a great importance. --User:Mbakkel2 12:09, 20 July 2012 (CEST)


 * They definitely need to be added. -- Director  ( talk )  06:52, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Question regarding pre-1990 Speakers
I'm confused regarding the speakers of the Sabor between 1974 and 1990. Between 1943 and 1974 the speakers of the Sabor were the heads of state as well, then, with the 1974 constitution, the head of state became the "President of the Presidency of Croatia". That we know. The problem is I am not sure whether the Presidents of the Presidency were also the speakers of the Sabor 1974-90? I.e. whether the offices were split into "President of the Presidency" and a separate "Speaker" (President) of the Sabor, or if they remained one office? -- Director  ( talk )  06:52, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There are no sources in existence which support the idea that speakers of Croatian parliament doubled as "heads of state" in either form or function at any point in SR Croatia's history. That much we know for sure. We also know that the definition of the term implies a head of a "sovereign state" which neither SR Croatia nor the other 5 republics were. This also applies to each republic's "President of the Presidency" as these did not replace the federal Presidency of Yugoslavia as the country's head of state.  Timbouctou ( talk ) 15:12, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh, is it known? :) Is this one of those hrWiki "theories"? First of all, the SFR Yugoslavia was a federation of de iure sovereign states. I.e. these were not provinces, such as the banovinas of the Kingdom, but real states also with the right to leave the association - all this can easily be sourced. By your logic Croatia is no longer "sovereign" even now, having joined another effective (con)federation (albeit of a looser variety, though not by a large margin).


 * This sovereign Croatian state within the Yugoslav federation did have heads of state. Believe it or not, "President of the Presidency of Croatia" is the title of a head of state. Just off the top of my head in a 2-minute Google search here is a source that states "the powers under the Croatian presidency were significantly strengthened under the Constitution of 1990". By your account, there was no presidency (meaning of course the office of the president) to strengthen. Unless you need a source that states a president is a head of state..?


 * So Croatia was legally sovereign, and it did have a head of state - those are not subjects for debate. The only question which I grant you needs a bit of clarifying is the issue of the speaker of the Sabor being the head of state. -- Director  ( talk )  18:48, 26 September 2013 (UTC)


 * What's pretty obvious from even a fleeting search in the sources is that all the (legally sovereign!) republics after 1974 each had a collective head of state (presidency), headed by a president of the presidency.


 * Its also obvious that prior to the 1974 constitution there were "Speakers of the Parliament", i.e. "Presidents of the Sabor" under a number of full official titles. It seems likely from various unsourced listings on Wiki and elsewhere that the speaker of the parliament was the head of state 1943/45-1974 (de facto powerless of course). What is completely unknown to me is whether the post-1974 "President of the Presidency" was also the speaker of the Sabor? This is something I was hoping would be known to someone knowledgeable in the silly maze of complicated communist politics. -- Director  ( talk )  19:09, 26 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Head of state is the "highest official who holds the highest ranked position in a sovereign state". That is what the phrase means. Now regarding the "sovereign state" part - none of the Yugoslav republics were sovereign states prior to the breakup of federal Yugoslavia says. This is WP:BLUE. Therefore the "head of state" of each and every republic was whoever was head of state of Yugoslavia (and in Yugoslavia's case this was not a single person but a collective body at the federal level, just like for example Bosnia's head of state or the Swiss Federal Council today). Inventing "heads of state" retroactively is neither correct in form (speakers of parliament were never called or referred as "presidents of Croatia") or function (they did not do what we understand that heads of states do). Speakers of Sabor (which was a devolved assembly by definition, just like the Scottish Parliament today) was no "head of state" as there was no "state" for him to be head of, as his republic was entirely part of a greater federal entity. This is akin to claiming Tricia Marwick is Scotland's "head of state" - on the grounds that Scotland has the right to secede from the UK. As for "Presidents of Presidencies" of Yugoslav republics - they were exactly that - chairmen of collective bodies governing a federal unit. Not "heads of state". Constitution can say whatever it wants to say, but these were and still are the facts. If you think Croatia was a sovereign state, who governed its foreign affairs or ministries of defence then? And if it can be "easily sourced" - then be my guest and source it easily. Go right ahead. As for "speaker of the Sabor being the head of state" - I have no reason to believe this is anything other than your WP:OR. Can you source this as well? Easily, perhaps?  Timbouctou ( talk ) 21:10, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Timbouctou, you are either confused as to the issue here or are trying to start a conflict over semantics. The point here is that the Socialist Republic of Croatia  de iure  had a "head of state" (in parentheses if you like!). Between 1974-90 it certainly had a collective presidency, and the presidents of the Sabor were probably the legal heads of state 1943-74. I'm not here to argue whether this was really and de facto a proper "head of state" - I'm just trying to list these guys the communists said were the heads of state (or rather the speaker of parliament). Get it?

So if you'd turn down your trolling I'd like to ask the crucial question here once more: who were the speakers of the Croatian Parliament (presidents of the Sabor) between 1974 and 1990? Were the Presidents of the Presidency the speakers? Do you know? Can you help find the answer? If not, no offense but take a hike. I'm not here to help you vent your frustrations I'm here to finish this article's List section. -- Director  ( talk )  22:40, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hi,1953-1974 the speaker of parliament was also the head of state. In 1974 the office of president of the presidency was established. The speaker of parliament was no more head of state. I have a list on Norwegian Wikipedia Mbakkel2 11:13, 27 September 2013

https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_over_presidentene_i_Kroatias_parlament


 * Ok, but who were the speakers of parliament after 1974 when the presidency was established? Was the presidency head of the parliament as well? Was the office of speaker dissolved? Or is there a separate unknown 1974-1990 succession? -- Director  ( talk )  11:14, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, there was a speaker 1974-. The head of the presidency was only the head of state. 1946-1953 there was also a speaker of Sabor and chairman of the presidium. You have erroneously listed the chairman of the presidium as presiding officer.Mbakkel2 15:40, 27 September 2013


 * Marko Došen was speaker of the Ustasha parliament 1942-1944.


 * Office-holders 1974-1990:
 * April 1974	1978	Ivo Perišin
 * 1978	1982	Jure Bilić
 * 1982	1984	Jovo Grčić
 * 1984	1986	Ivo Latin
 * 1986	1990	Anđelko Runjić


 * Right. Well I've been looking over your list over on the Norwegian Wiki and we seem to have a discrepancy regarding Karlo Mrazovic and Vicko Krstulovic, as well as regarding the extent of Vladimir Nazor's term in office. What exactly is your source on this? -- Director  ( talk )  14:04, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * http://www.portalestoria.net/presidenti%20parlamenti%20nazionali%20a%20f.htm#Croazia


 * Hmm. The link there appears to be wrong. Nazor was certainly the speaker of Parliament after 1945 as well. -- Director  ( talk )  16:53, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Nope, Nazor was chairman of the presidium, not chairman of the Sabor. He was the head of state Mbakkel2 19:32, 27 September 2013
 * The title of his office after the war was "President of the Presidium of the National Parliament of Croatia" (Predsjednik Prezidijuma Narodnog Sabora Hrvatske). You're saying the President of the Presidium of the Parliament wasn't the head of the Parliament? -- Director  ( talk )  18:31, 27 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, he was the head of state. This office was inspired by the office of the Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union. He was not a chairman of the soviet, but of a body operating between the SS sessions (collective head of state). I know it is strange. The Soviet republics had similar bodies. [User:Mbakkel2|Mbakkel2]] 20:56, 27 September 2013

Ugh.. I wish it were that simple. It seems that the Soviet-style "Presidium" existed until 6 February 1953. From 6 February 1953 until the establishment of the "Presidency" on 8 May 1974, the Speaker of Parliament seems to have held the honour of head of state (the same politicians at the same time are listed as heads of state and as speakers during that period). To your knowledge, was that the case? -- Director  ( talk )  14:28, 29 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Correct. I hope that somebody can be able to make a complete survey of the Serbian and Bosnian parliamentary speakers 1945-1990 Mbakkel2 17:13, 29 September 2013 (CEST)
 * I must've been crazy when I decided to try and list all these people properly :). Re the NDH speaker, he needs to be listed separately as he's not part of the same succession. -- Director  ( talk )  15:54, 29 September 2013 (UTC)