Talk:Special Tribunal for Lebanon

False witnesses
could someone with more knowledge ont he matter elucidate the controversy over "false witnesses" Something to with accusation against Syria, but i dont know the names or details.Lihaas (talk) 08:52, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * There should be something here: http://www.globalpolitician.com/print.asp?id=5158 FunkMonk (talk) 17:18, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

encyclopedic content
I am reading this article as a neutral follower not familiar with the case and have problems following it from here. Would it be possible to indicate on first occurance of every person what their function/nationality/role is? Furthermore it is not clear what the difference is between sections "geopolitical aspects" and "controversies".

Most importantly, the sections are are very, very long (WP:TLDR) and read a bit like a news report (they are from the last 5 days mainly it seems?) (WP:notnews). Anyone knowledgeable on the subject capable of summarizing (based on the available refs en other sources) the main points into something more concise? L.tak (talk) 12:56, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the feedback. I has some questions as to your queries though. Do you mean explaining each person from the "leak controversy" section or the whole article?
 * Probably need to merge the 2 sections, would that be better?
 * probably we can shorted the quotes and all, just seem important at the time so one can trace the perspectives. Will give that a go.Lihaas (talk) 13:49, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I have been reading a bit more in detail, but am still not completely sure on how to proceed. The text now gives a well-referenced overview of the statements, which can be used in the paper. Maybe often by having the actual citations in the refs. But the main point (and the thing I cannot do, as I am not knowledgeable) is to think about the message that should send in these paragraph. I can imagine doing it like this:

If it is placed like this and you think with the recent things if the things included would be still relevant in 1 or 2 years, I think it will be clearer and much shorter. Hope this helps! L.tak (talk) 17:23, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Murder (factual information)
 * UN investigation (see Hariri article)
 * court actions: describe key factual things (arrest and letting go of 4 men; selecting witnesses, saying witnes x is not credible)
 * reactions in Lebanon (for all: short, giving the general idea)
 * Government
 * Hezbollah
 * (Media)
 * reactions in Syria
 * reactions in Israel (possibly placed in context of general Israel–Lebanon relations )


 * What part about the murder? A brief background synopsis under mandate or "background"/"assassination"?
 * Will work on the UN part, had a question and posted on his page.
 * I think is the kicker here that keeps the article from being better rated. Need to go over the court actions/arguements, etc kinda like International Court of Justice advisory opinion on Kosovo's declaration of independence
 * Tried to organise them somehow by paragraphs. Maybe like the reaction to the Fadlallah article?Lihaas (talk) 18:33, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I would do it under background, unless it is competely linked tot he UN part, in that case you could also do "prelim findings of UN". But then again, I have not suff. knowledge to judge now... L.tak (talk) 09:38, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I hope my recent contri, section "General ambience in Lebanon", was a helpful step in the right direction? Fee free to improve/expand/reference, of course. (I don't know how to add an in-article "references needed" tag.) Basically, I tried to make an objective summary as one who lives in the country and follows the events up close. The last sentence is obviously destined to soon be changed or ultimately removed as things evolve. Issar El-Aksab (talk) 19:03, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Bout/israeli general
The bout reference to this mentions "International Independent Investigation Committee." im not aware of another int'l commission into this, and it seems theyre refering to this, especially in light of the STL's alleged political nature in not investigating this and that. If however there is another committee then please enlighten me and id be glad to take it off.

The other edit has to do with the context of controversies and the back and forth arguements. Read the lead up to that quote. Furthermore the editor who removed it (twice, once from a disguised ip) first asserted the credibility of the source, then says its irrelevant, which really devalues the arguement.Lihaas (talk) 22:23, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that there's some confusion here which I'd like to clear up...
 * First of all, it's ludicrous to claim that any article that mentions an incident which is *NOT* being investigated by the STL, is worthy of inclusion in an article about the STL. The bout reference mentions exactly that - "the International Independent Investigation Committee had not yet interrogated Bout". You know that I have no alibi for the day that rafik al-hariri was assassinated, yet the STL isn't investigating me - if that were printed in some media outlet, would that warrant getting this "controversy" in the article? Some controversies are notable (false witnesses issue, strife as a result of indictments, accusation of syria, arrest of the four generals, hezbollah accusation of israel, the US and the masaiyah, etc.), however one newspaper article about viktor bout and another quoting some supposed statement (which has nothing to do with the STL - although if you're using original research, you may be looking to hint that other parties may have had an interest in the assassination of Hariri) made by an Israeli general.


 * I suggest that if you're trying to explain the whole issue of "politicisation of the STL", you state the case based on reliable sources, and don't just bunch up a few incidents and articles that have no real relation to the STL, in order to show that it isn't investigating anything that its puppet masters do not support.


 * Secondly, I suggest you quit your subtle insinuations regarding the validity of my arguments. Your last sentence just reeks of demagoguery since I (using my user name) only edited the PRESSTV bit once and only stated on reason for the edit - that it's irrelevant\non-notable, same as the Viktor Bout incident. You might be confused as the editor who was claiming the source wasn't reliable was Toranador..


 * Thirdly, I did not at any point edit from "a disguised IP", I made a few IP edits and after I started editing with my user, I stated that I previously edited using my IP, in order to prevent any misunderstandings.


 * I'd be glad to find out that I'm mistaken, however it seems like you are trying to push in various incidents which present the STL in a bad light, rather than aiming towards an objective presentation of the STL - over half of the article is the "controversies" section, half of which may have something to do with the murder of Rafik al-Hariri, but nothing to do with the STL. Yonatan talk 22:59, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


 * yes, but youre not notable. look at 1. the controversy here, and 2. the Bout's connection to Lebanon on that page.
 * You just admitted you did it twice.
 * Oh come on, your edit "iranian news agency" is not pov-pushing? Ive left your comment of presstv as its fair to put the caveat on controversial stuff.
 * um, the STL has generated notability precisely because of such "politicisation" accusations. I also assert that it is an accusation not gospel truth. The point being that there is not reason to WP:Censorship content if its notable.Lihaas (talk) 04:10, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I think we can agree on at least bout without giving him an entire section/moving it to his page? Is that fair?Lihaas (talk) 04:33, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I didn't understand the "you're not notable" remark. There's no doubt that there's controversy surrounding the STL, and there definitely should be a section about the politicisation and controversy surrounding it. In that section, the Victor Bout issue could maybe get a line. On another thought, no, it shouldn't get a line as you're making the connection (WP:OR) here between an accusation made by some news source, and it not being investigated by the STL - if it were mentioned in the hariri article then maybe it'd have had some relevance. A story being run in *one* reliable source, does not necessarily make it notable enough for inclusion in the article... - "Proper sourcing always depends on context; common sense and editorial judgment are an indispensable part of the process.". Your wild accusation of censorship is utterly ridiculous and is not worthy of a reply. The Iranian news agency, IMHO, is not POV-pushing - it's a statement of fact which puts the story in the correct context, just as it'd be relevant to state Israeli newspaper Haaretz printed something about Hezbollah\Syrian involvement in the murder of Rafik al-Hariri. Of course, I have no problem stating my personal opinion that the PRESSTV story is BS, especially as it hasn't propagated on to any non-Hezbollah\Iranian news sources and seeing how Israel has freedom of press, I have no doubt Haaretz would have printed this story if there was any substance to it. I am, however, capable of distinguishing between my own personal opinion and what is worthy of inclusion in an article - which it is - in its proper context (ie. attribution to the Iranian source, to enable the reader to decide for himself whether it's reliable or not). Yonatan talk 16:42, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Possible copyvio
I noticed that this edit introduced a very likely copyvio of this source. Specifically the part of the source under the "Hariri tribunal" heading. Because there have been several edits since it's too complex to remove it for me, could someone else try and do this please? Signed by Barts1a Suggestions/complements? Complaints? 23:32, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅is this better? if not suggest improvements and ill be glad to make them.Lihaas (talk) 04:24, 21 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Much better. Thanks for that! Signed by Barts1a Suggestions/complements? Complaints? 05:30, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Removed link to PressTV article about Amos Yadlin
Most likely it is fake. I'm not sure why anyone put it in the article in the first place. 121.218.225.7 (talk) 04:08, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed this reference: PressTV - 'Israel benefited Rafiq Hariri murder'.
 * The article provides no source for its claims. I Googled around and couldn't find anything on it from any news websites. Why is PressTV even used as a reference on these articles? Justify it next time.
 * no evidence that press tv fabricates news like the bbc, cnn, fox, etc. Why is ynet and jpost and haaretz used on wikipeida then?
 * Fuerthermore, the caveat thereof is duly stated(Lihaas (talk) 01:08, 26 January 2011 (UTC)).
 * Why would a head of Israeli intelligence talk to Press TV? Why are there no direct quotes from him on the article? Why did no other news outlets carry the story? Because it a complete lie. Liquidpappe (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 01:47, 27 January 2011 (UTC).
 * then PROVE that press tv is a lie, just because you say so doesnt make it so. if you have allegations that it is false then show it!
 * the respective caveat has been duly added preiously asa n accomodation. wikipedia does not WP:CENSORSHIP.(Lihaas (talk) 12:24, 29 January 2011 (UTC)).
 * I don't need to prove it. The burden of proof is on PressTV to show that Amos Yadlin actually said those things to their reporters. It's pretty obvious he didn't as there are no quotes from him, and the fact that PressTV is the only "news" organization in the world to carry the story. Are you really saying that he chose only to talk to PressTV and not any other reporters in the world? Yeah, right. At least one Israeli newspaper like Haaretz or Ynet would have carried the story if it was true. Liquidpappe (talk) 01:21, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

What about http://www.counterpunch.com/amiri11052010.html ?

Recent edits
Another editor recently changed the article to say that "The Lebanese government collapsed... after 11 cabinet ministers aligned with the March 8 alliance withdrew over Prime Minister Saad Hariri's refusal to reject discuss issues pertaining to the STL" from the previous "The Lebanese government collapsed... after 11 cabinet ministers aligned with the March 8 Alliance withdrew over Prime Minister Saad Hariri's refusal to reject the STL." Poor English aside, the cited source simply does not say that. In fact, I have found absolutely no sources that support this change. I'll provide editors with several days to try to find sources that do say that the March 8 alliance left over a "refusal to discuss" rather than a "refusal to reject" before reverting. ← George talk 23:06, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * are you serious that you found no sources to say so, that suggest you didnt look. what reason did you find then?(Lihaas (talk) 01:09, 26 January 2011 (UTC)).

Needs tidying up!
"Ban Ki-Moon appointed Robin Vincent Registrar (senior administrator) of the Tribunal on 11 March 2008"

"The registrar of the STL David Tolbert... resigned during the first two weeks of January"

"Following the resignation of David Vincent, Ban Ki-moon appointed David Tolbert registrar..."

I can'

Use of Al-Manar as a source
Al-Manar is heavily used as a source for this article. Currently all the links to its website are broken, and they don't seem to be available on the wayback machine either. But more importantly, Al Manar is widely considered a mouthpiece for Hezbollah, and since Hezbollah is suspected of having responsibility for the assassination it seems particularly inappropriate to use it as a source for the article about the tribunal and its proceedings. At very least, the number of references from the Al Manar website should be reduced (I think they're currently 50-60).--eh bien mon prince (talk) 20:05, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

I think this falls under NPOV. However, there are only eight sources out of a total of one hundred and seventy nine that originate from this one person. However, I do agree that sources whose links work would be better than the current situation.

--The Historian (talk) 20:57, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I counted many more (try searching the page for Almanar.com.lb and Al-ManarTV), I could find 61 and nearly all are dead links.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 00:35, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.almanar.com.lb/newsSite/NewsDetails.aspx?id=157337&language=en
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External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 67 one external links on Special Tribunal for Lebanon. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at ).

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 10:39, 1 March 2016 (UTC)

Suggested edits to Structure and staff
Hello, I am employed by the Special Tribunal for Lebanon (and therefore declare a conflict of interest, so I am not editing the page directly). There are some gaps and errors in this article that should be corrected. Many citations are dead links or do not support the text they are referenced to.

I would suggest expanding and restructuring this section for additional/accurate information and clarity, creating sub-headings for each of the four organs to better show their function/relationships, and moving some of the current information into a more logical order (e.g., moving the reference to the Deputy Prosecutor out of the paragraph that discusses the Registrar). I am relatively new to (editing) Wikipedia but I have proposed a new draft for the section (below). No information has been removed (including one statement that does not have any citation support, referenced in my note re: current footnote 25 below). Regarding the independence of the Defence Office, I've reworded it slightly to better reflect the actual text cited and what I think the original drafter was trying to say. I've also added a book citation that says the same thing.

There are a lot of other gaps on this page which I am happy to help correct, but I understand my employment complicates that, and so I look to the editors for guidance on how best to approach that.

In terms of this section, I think the changes are fairly uncontroversial (though I could be wrong), and I'm happy to make them myself if that's acceptable (though I realize I may need to tweak some Wikipdia formatting before I do). Note: I realize in previewing this that by pre-formatting the text, I may cause problems with the formatting of this page; please let me know if there is a better way to make these suggestions? Thanks.

Some notes on the citations/footnotes for this section:
 * Footnote 19 - "Handbook on The Special Tribunal for Lebanon". 2008-04-01. International Center for Transitional Justice - keep at end of introductory paragraph
 * Footnote 20 - "First Annual Report (2010), p. 13" (PDF). Special Tribunal for Lebanon official website. Retrieved 2011-03-23. - dead link - proper link is https://www.stl-tsl.org/ar/documents/presidents-reports-and-memoranda/download/82_a3d2aadc67f1e26a4d99ca9e4133f7ed - I've corrected the link and also cited a book for the same proposition.
 * Footnote 21 - "Ban Ki-moon names top official for Lebanon tribunal". UN News Centre. 2008-04-11. Retrieved 2008-12-07. - kept at end of sentence "Ban Ki-Moon appointed Robin Vincent as the first Registrar of the Tribunal on 11 March 2008"
 * Footnote 22 - "Registry", Website tribunal - was broken and has been fixed.
 * Footnote 23 - "Politics – Hariri Tribunal VP hands in retirement notice". The Daily Star. 2010-01-06. Retrieved 2010-08-03. - this article is about a different topic.
 * Footnote 24 - "Politics". iloubnan.info. Retrieved 2010-08-03. - dead link.
 * Footnote 25 - "Hariri tribunal chief steps aside". UPI.com. 2010-01-07. Retrieved 2010-08-03. - This article only mentions Kaldas’ resignation (not Tolbert’s), and does not make mention of any concerns about Tribunal staffing. I think it would be more appropriate/accurate to move the citation to Kaldas' name, as putting it at the end of the sentence suggests the article talks about staffing concerns.  (I won't delete the statement about staffing concerns, but I think it requires a citation for support.)
 * Footnote 26 - Lebanon appoints Joyce Tabet as STL deputy state prosecutor". Dailystar.com.lb. 2009-08-18. Retrieved 2010-10-08. - kept, but with additional citation for additional information (specific date of 1 November 2009 and to show she remains in the post).
 * Footnote 27 - "STL Indictment Not Based on Conclusive Evidence: Report". Al Manar. 6 October 2010. Retrieved 8 October 2010. - This link is dead and the title of the article suggests it is not about the referenced subject.
 * Footnote 28 - "Tribunal Defense: Indictment is Just the Beginning, Not Final Verdict". Almanar.com.lb. 2010-09-03. Retrieved 2010-10-08. - dead link
 * Footnote 29 - The Earthtimes. "Italian judge Antonio Cassese to head Special Tribunal for Lebanon". Earthtimes.org. Retrieved 2010-08-03. - dead link.  I’ve provided a link to the official press release from the Tribunal.
 * Footnote 30 - Al-ManarTV:: Sayyed Asks STL President to Disqualify Judge Ralph Riachy 20/10/2010 - dead link; added another citation
 * Footnote 31 - "The Head of Defence Office Appoints Deputy". stl-tsl.org. 2010-10-07. Retrieved 2010-10-08. - broken link - fixed.

Stl175 (talk) 14:56, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Proposed draft:

Structure and staff
The STL is composed of four organs: Chambers, which consists of a Pre-Trial Judge, a Trial Chamber, and an Appeals Chamber; the Registry, responsible for the administration of the Tribunal; the Office of the Prosecutor; and the Defence Office.

Chambers
The Chambers are composed of an international Pre-Trial Judge, three Trial Chamber judges (one Lebanese and two international), five Appeals Chamber judges (two Lebanese and three international), and two alternate judges (one Lebanese and one international). The alternate judges may be assigned by the Tribunal President (at the request of the presiding judge of the Trial Chamber) to be present at each stage of the trial, and replace a judge who is unable to continue sitting.

Judges are appointed by the Secretary-General of the United Nations for a three-year period, which can be renewed.

Both the Trial Chamber and the Appeals Chamber elect a presiding judge to conduct the proceedings. The presiding judge of the Appeals Chamber is also the President of the Special Tribunal. The term of the President is normally one and a half years.

The President has a number of functions and responsibilities, including coordinating the work of the Chambers to ensure effective functioning of the Tribunal and good administration of justice; supervising the activities of the Registry; issuing Practice Directions (in consultation with the Council of Judges, Registrar, Head of Defence Office, and Prosecutor); and representing the Tribunal in international relations. The President is also responsible for submitting an annual report on the Tribunal’s activities to the Secretary-General of the United Nations and the Government of Lebanon.

The first President of the Tribunal was the late Antonio Cassese. Following his resignation, Cassese was succeeded by Sir David Baragwanath, elected on 10 October 2011. Baragwanath was succeeded by Judge Ivana Hrdličková, who was elected on 19 February 2015. She was re-elected on 4 July 2016.

The Appeals Chamber also elects a Vice-President for a one-and-a-half-year term. The Vice-President exercises the President’s functions when the President is absent or unable to act, and any other function delegated by the President.

Lebanese Judge Ralph Riachi has been Vice-President of the Tribunal since it opened in 2009, and was most recently re-elected on 4 July 2016.

Registry
The Registry is responsible for administering and servicing the Tribunal, under the authority of the President and the direction of the Registrar.

The Registry’s Judicial Division ensures the efficient functioning of hearings, and consists of the Court Management and Services Section, Victims and Witnesses Unit, Victims’ Participation Unit, Language Services Section, Detention Facility, and Information Services Section. The Registry’s Division of Administration provides administrative services to the whole Tribunal, and includes the Human and Financial Resources Services Section, Budget Unit, Procurement Section, and the General Services Section. The Registry’s Security and Safety Section provides security for the Tribunal’s personnel, facilities, assets and programmes.

The Registrar is appointed by the United Nations Secretary-General for a three-year term, which can be renewed.

Ban Ki-Moon appointed Robin Vincent as the first Registrar of the Tribunal on 11 March 2008. Following Vincent’s resignation, Ban appointed David Tolbert as Registrar on 9 July 2009, to assume the post effective 26 August 2009. Both Registrar David Tolbert and Chief of Investigation Naguib Kaldas resigned during the first two weeks of January 2010, triggering concerns about the staffing of the Tribunal. Herman von Hebel was appointed as acting Registrar on 1 March 2010 and as Registrar on 10 December 2010. Current Registrar Daryl A. Mundis was appointed acting Registrar on 18 April 2013 and Registrar on 24 July 2013.

Office of the Prosecutor
The Prosecutor is responsible for the investigation and prosecution of persons responsible for crimes falling under the Tribunal’s jurisdiction. The Prosecutor is appointed by the United Nations Secretary General for a three-year term, which can be renewed. The Prosecutor is assisted by a Lebanese Deputy Prosecutor.

Daniel Bellemare was appointed as the first Prosecutor on 14 November 2007, and was sworn in when the Tribunal opened in March 2009. Current Prosecutor Norman Farrell was appointed on 29 February 2012.

Lebanese lawyer Joyce Tabet assumed the position of Deputy Prosecutor of the Court on 1 November 2009.

Defence Office
The STL is the first international tribunal to have a Defence Office that is independent of the Registry, on par with the Office of the Prosecutor. Other tribunals have had defence offices, but in contrast to the independent Offices of the Prosecutor, these offices are not independent and fall under the administration of other organs of the Court.

The Head of Defence Office is appointed by the United Nations Secretary-General, in consultation with the President of the Tribunal. The Head of Defence Office is responsible for appointing Office staff and drawing up a list of defence counsel. The Defence Office is mandated to protect the rights of the defence and support defence counsel and persons entitled to legal assistance (including research, evidence collection, and advice).

François Roux was sworn in as Head of the Defence Office in March 2009, and he remains in the role.

In September 2010, Lebanese-French lawyer Alia Aoun was appointed as Deputy Head of Defense Office. Current Deputy Head Héleyn Uñac was appointed on an interim basis in May 2012 and was formally appointed in May 2014.

Stl175 (talk) 14:56, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Venue section
I would suggest some further changes. Again, I've attempted not to remove anything:

- Footnote 39 does not mention the fact that the Tribunal is located in the former AIVD building, so I would suggest a link that does. - I would suggest a bit more context/detail for the Special Court for Sierra Leone. - I would add the fact that the Tribunal also maintains a Beirut office.

Venue
For reasons of security, administrative efficiency and fairness, the Tribunal has its seat outside Lebanon, in Leidschendam, on the outskirts of The Hague, the Netherlands. The premises of the Tribunal is the former headquarters of the Dutch General Intelligence and Security Service (Algemene Inlichtingen- en Veiligheidsdienst, or AIVD).

The STL courtroom served as a courtroom for the Charles Taylor trial before the Special Court for Sierra Leone from 2010 to 2012.

The Tribunal also maintains an office in Beirut.

Stl175 (talk) 10:37, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 8 external links on Special Tribunal for Lebanon. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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