Talk:Special education/Archive 2

Orphanages
Esther,

I don't understand why you added orphanages. By the same logic, we should add everyone's own homes, since nobody is required to provide any educational services in their own homes, either. Kids in most orphanages attend the same schools that the kids living next door to the orphanages attend. (Despite your belief, some orphanages run their own schools, and thus provide special education services, too.)

If you want this to stay in the article, you need to provide a reliable source that says kids in orphanages are excluded from school. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:14, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The state provides funding for orphanages. The public does not do it. So therefore, it is not legally mandated that special education services must be provided. We don't need a reliable source for it when it is common sense. Esthertaffet (talk) 14:35, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, you do need a reliable source to support challenged information. The relevant policy is WP:BURDEN.  Being placed in an orphanage does not normally deny children the same education that children outside of an orphanage.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Why do adoption groups encourage children to be adopted? Obviously, the life in the orphanage is not as good as the family life. Esthertaffet (talk) 21:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Who cares? "Living with a family is better" is not the same thing as "kids in orphanages don't go to school".  WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:06, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Children who are in the hospital or homebound have their education located somewhere else. The children in the orphanages have their education located somewhere else. I don't see why orphanages must have a reliable source when it's a similar situation as the children in the hospital or homebound. Esthertaffet (talk) 15:36, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I have added a reliable source regarding orphanages in Russia. Esthertaffet (talk) 16:27, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Are the Russia institutions really orphanages (institutions primarily for children whose parents are dead)? The entire Western world used to put severely disabled children into residential institutions (and still does, in some instances).  This is generally taken to be an instance of a special school, not an orphanage -- and thus an instance of "segregation" instead of "exclusion".
 * About your complaint above: Children that live in orphanages usually attend the same non-orphanage school as the children living next door to the orphanage.  You can't say that "Johnny", an orphan, is excluded from the education system when he is attending exactly the same government-run school, in exactly the same classroom, with exactly the same government-paid teacher, as "Susie", a child living with her parents.  Even if they attended a school that is solely for residents of the orphanage, they are still attending school, which means that they are not excluded from school.  You cannot "attend" and "not attend" school at the same time.
 * Also, the second ref is seriously incomplete. We need more than the author's last name and the page number.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:03, 15 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, I see. It was taken from Education in Russia, and adapted to support your beliefs.  The report in question (in Russian) is about special schools and boarding schools.  This is therefore an example of segregation, not exclusion.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:26, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * This is taken from Education in Russia. "Children with stronger forms of intellectual disability are, as of 2008, mostly excluded from the education system. Some are trained within severe disability groups of the correction boarding schools and orphanages, others are aided only through counseling." How could this not be exclusion? They told us right there that the kids in orphanages are excluded. Esthertaffet (talk) 20:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Of course the Russian institutions are orphanages. Many parents could not care for their severely disabled children so they abandoned them. Orphanages provided for their housing and education. Esthertaffet (talk) 20:32, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, many kids with severe disabilities in Russia are excluded. But the ones that are in orphanages and other residential institutions are apparently not excluded:  it says that they attend special schools.  People attending school are not excluded from school.  Most of these kids in Russia are excluded; some are not excluded.  The "some" that are not excluded are the ones that are in the residential institutions.  Your statement gets it exactly backwards.  According to this source, it would be accurate to say that "all the severely disabled kids except those in Russian orphanages are excluded."  WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:51, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I removed the section regarding orphanages in Russia so now this debate is over. Esthertaffet (talk) 18:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)