Talk:Speed metal/Archive 1

Removing list of speed metal songs by non-speed metal bands
This section is almost completely pointless. Lots of bands play the occassional fast song but this doesn't make them representive of speed metal. If you take a look at this section now you'll see that its gotten far too long for this article. I'm also positive that less than 50% of the songs in that list are actually speed metal. Speed metal doesn't just mean fast metal (or rock in the case of some bands in this list). If it did then a lot of death and black metal bands would make this list too including numerous power metal. Speed metal consists mainly on fast metal bands who do not belong, or were around before other genres of metal. Bands such as venom can be considered speed metal because they wern't thrash yet clearly not traditional heavy metal. The first helloween album is clearly speed metal because it didn't "thrash" and it was far different from the power metal that was pioneered following that album. When bands such as Europe, Ratt, Rainbow, Muse (a big WTF?) make it to the list then a group of people are clearly muddled up in their definition of speed metal. Its funny because on one side there are people who fail to recognise the genre and on the other side there are people who stick any rock and metal band with a faster than normal song into one of the lists here.

I propose that we remove the speed metal songs by non-speed metal bands section either altogether or just off this article and into its own. I would like some feedback here before I go ahead of course. --PureHolocaust 18:10, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I definately wouldn't mind the removal of the list. The other genre articles don't have lists like that so why should speed metal have one. --Pasajero 02:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I've gone ahead and removed the list - as most of it is saturated with personal opinion anyway. Wisdom89 01:31, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Rewrite
It has been said by many that this article was highly incorrect and even a little POV. Examples? Well the biggest being the fact that it was stated as only a cross reference birthed from power/thrash metal, which is ONE HUNDRED PERCENT incorrect. I have edited it including the facts PLUS what was in there already about power/thrash crossovers, thus making it as NPOV as I could. Please type up comments and whatever here before making major changes/reverts. --Ryouga 20:09, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Try to put stuff under subheadings. Maybe a brief section on the history, a section on the explanation of the speed metal sound, speed metal as being played now etc. Have less about bands with single speed metal songs and more about bands who played straight up speed metal such as agent steel, exciter etc. Talk about the evolution of speed metal into thrash and power metal, explaining key bands to do this (i.e. helloween as they moved away from their early speed metal sound). I would add this all but at the moment i'm doing some work for college. Thanks a lot for rewriting this!


 * PLEASE KEEP ARGUMENTS ON THE VALIDITY OF THIS MUSIC GENRE OUT OF THIS SECTION, THANKS --PureHolocaust 20:15, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

I'll get to what I can whenever I can. If anyone can help out do so. Requests can go here as well, but if you want it done fast, just DIY! Thanks. --Ryouga 20:39, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately this article cannot be rewritten until a poll is passed on whether Speed Metal should be a genre or a cross reference. Either way, I intend to edit the factual accuracy of the article itself once I have discussed it with the appropriate users. --Ryouga 05:01, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Glam Metal?
I know that I'm going get laughed at probably, but I don't give a shit. It's my opinion. There were some glam metal songs with speed metal sounds. Examples:


 * "Body Talk" by Ratt is definatly a speed metal styled song. It is slow and lame for 20 sceonds, but then it kicks into overdrive.  Robbin Crosby and Warren DeMartini are basically playing for their lives in the song and it's definatly fast.


 * "Live Wire" by Motley Crue is also extremely fast paced and sounds like an early thrash song. Faster than Highway Star.


 * "Over the Mountain" by Ozzy Osbourne is also very fast played. Randy Rhoads has a monster riff that's fast paced, right when it opens and Carmine Appice's drumming is very fast.

Other Heavy Metal genres had Speed Metal styled songs:


 * "Queen of the Reich" by Queensryche is a very fast paced song. With Chris DeGarmo and Michael Wilton playing very fast.  Scott Rockenfeld also used minor blast beats.


 * "Blackout" by Scorpions is another speed metal styled song. Rudy Schenker and Matthias Jabs are playing fast and Klaus Meine is singing fast as well.


 * "Slave to the Grind" by Skid Row is also fast and mean. Sabo's guitar playing and Bolan's bass playing are fast and Bach's vocals are speedy.


 * "Wait and Bleed" by Slipknot is another very fast song, hardcore styled.


 * "Dig" by Mudvayne is also very fast.


 * "B.Y.O.B." by System of a Down is another speed metal styled song. Daron's playing fast for quiet a while and Serj is also singing very fast.


 * Twisted Sister also had a few, like "Under the Blade," "Stay Hungry," Don't Let Me Down," and "You Can't Stop Rock & Roll."


 * Inbstrumentals should also count, like Van Halen's "Eruption."


 * "Straight For the Heart" by Whitesnake is also semi-fast.


 * "TV Crimes" by Black Sabbath is another speed metal styled song. Sabbath was speed metal band, but only when Dio was with them.  The Dehumanizer was basically a speed metal album with "TV Crimes" and "Time Machine."


 * "And last but not least, let's not forget Dio's "Stand Up and Shout." This song is very fast.


 * While it is true that many non-speed metal bands have recorded speed metal songs, it would be inappropiate to include them in the article or list of bands because that would give the impression that they actually play speed metal when they don't. As for SOAD, Slipknot, and Mudvayne they aren't even metal but rock. Besides speed metal by definition is sped up traditional metal a sound which none of previously mentioned bands have. Simply playing fast isn't enough to be considered speed metal. Pasajero 19:47, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Pasajero, just because a band has a fairly fast song does not make it speed metal. Most of the examples cited above are erroneuos. "Whiplash" by Metallica is a perfect example of what speed metal really is and you should pick a song like that to judge all the rest against in writing this article. Otherwise you'll end up doing what the person above did and cite any band that has a song with a faster than normal beat as speed metal.

So when is the rewrite going to happen?

 * Most everyone here agrees that speed metal is a genre on its own. I would also like to point out that the power metal article claims to have origins in speed metal therefore how can speed metal originate from power? (as suggested by this article)


 * 1. Helloween mixed fast speed metal riffs with melodic ones and added Iron Maiden-like powerful vocals, further cleaning the sound.


 * 2. Power metal, as the term is used today, places primary importance on an epic sound, usually at high speeds, primarily due to its speed metal roots, and with catchy melodies.


 * To sum it up, speed metal is fast traditional metal having its roots in the 1978 release "Stained Class" by Judas Priest (regardless whether you consider them speed or not). How can speed metal have its origins in thrash. Thrash came into existence around 1984. Bands like Motorhead, Venom, early Exodus, Exciter, Kill 'Em All-era Metallica, and Fistful of Metal-era (recorded in 83) Anthrax were all before 1984. So what were they playing? They were playin speed metal (mixed with other metal genres). Note that there were always "thrashy" demos before 1984, but being thrashy doesn't make it thrash. The afore mentioned bands might as well receive credit for creating speed metal in addition to Priest. As for "Red Skies Demo" by Metal Church and Exodus' first demo being thrash demos that predate 1984, sure the birth of thrash elements can be found there, but remember that these demo combined MANY elements of metal (namely speed) not just thrash. Therefore they can't be considered full on thrash. Any assertions that speed is just another term for "power metal", "thrash", or "metal simply played fast" are completely erroneous. This one of the most common mistakes made by so-called "metalheads". Hell, on one of the "Transcending the Mundane" editorials the author calls Dark Angel speed metal. And I thought these guys were supposed to be seasoned veterans. Yeahhhhhh........


 * For anyone who might argue that Kill 'Em All is pure thrash.
 * Listen to Hit the Lights, Motorbreath, Whiplash, Phantom Lord, & Metal Militia. 6 songs in all. That's more than half of the tracks from the album. These are clearly not thrash metal songs. They are speed metal. Speed/Thrash would be a much more accurate description of the album.


 * Speed metal gave birth to power and thrash metal. Those who incorporated bouncier more melodic riffs along with more falsetto like vocals created what would soon become known as power metal. Speed metal fused with hardcore punk introduced choppier speed/traditional riffs along with faster tempos and would end up being called thrash metal.


 * Candidates for the first speed metal album (as opposed to demo/recording):
 * Judas Priest - Stained Class - 1978 (many may just cite this as an influence)
 * Riot - Fire Down Under - 1981
 * Venom - Welcome to Hell - 1981


 * Pasajero 09:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I've attempted a partial re-write today, derived from information already in the article. Although the blocked user Leyasu (who I'm sure many of you are familar with) seems to have a vendetta against the articles improve and continues to revert the hard work. If any of you who have previously worked on it can provide some sources that would be great, thanks. - Deathrocker 04:36, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Sources and non-subjective, non-POV claims would also be helpfull. I wont revert improvements, so if i revert, you know full well that what was put most definatly was NOT an improvement. Ley Shade

Rewrite by me
Can the user Deathrocker please allow me to rewrite the article as promised a couple of months back (scroll up). You have reverted everything that i've just typed and i'm afraid you will do it again. Thank you. --PureHolocaust 00:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I haven't revert it all, I've added significant earlier parts into stuff you added.. and also, you moved some info from the origins of Speed metal section, about the 1st Speed metal albums, into the "1980s evolution of Speed metal" section, which didn't make sense.


 * I've also added section for derivative forms (such as Thrash metal, Power metal, Glam metal, etc) in the info box - Deathrocker 00:32, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well ok. The reason everything may have been messed up was because I am in the process of rewriting, nothing is finalised yet and so it may look a little messy for a while. Thanks for your contributions to this article though. --PureHolocaust 00:42, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

REWRITE COMPLETE: The rewrite is complete. Please do NOT revert, please do not add anything about Visual Kei as it has NOTHING to do with speed metal whatsoever. Please do not add multiple albums for any one band in the small list of albums. Keep it to one album per band as this is NOT a comprehensive list. Do not talk about bands in the history of speed metal that had barely anything to do with the evolution and continuation of speed metal. Please try to improve in places which you feel the article is lacking. Thanks to everyone who has helped with this article. --PureHolocaust 13:59, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I've added the Visual Kei part into your rewrite. There are a large number of Visual Kei bands who have used Speed metal, you may not be aware of them but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. not all Visual Kei bands are Speed metal, but a good percentage are..


 * For example X-Japan,, Aikaryu,, Sex Machineguns , Moi dix Mois , Madeth Gray'll, etc, etc are example of Visual Kei bands who use Speed metal in their music, it warrants a mention. - Deathrocker 16:09, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * The only bands you've mentioned who have any speed metal in is early X-Japan and Sex machineguns even though from the looks of it, sex machineguns arnt even visual kei.

Clean up
I took the liberty of reworking some of the rhetoric in the article, mostly for the sake of readiability. I feel that it's abit more fluid now. I didn't really touch the content of the article though, as I agree with nearly all of the claims. However, I did alter the definition somewhat. I'm not sure how any of the main editors who are involved in this rewrite feel about it. Wisdom89 22:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Pretty much my rewrite although Deathrocker added some stuff about visual kei and also helped keep the current version through reverting those which do not read talk pages.


 * One problem I have is with the definition of speed metal which you changed. The sources you used (notably anus) defines speed metal as what the majority call thrash metal (metallica, slayer, exodus, watchtower etc) and thrash metal as crossover (DRI, cryptic slaughter etc). I guess there still is punk influence in speed metal, but highway star by deep purple (possible first speed metal song) didnt have any punk influence at all, neither did early judas priest. The only punk influence I can see is with the NWOBHM speed metal bands, not pre-NWOBHM (where speed metal started) speed metal. I guess if its changed to have a "now" in it... or "currently" then it'll work. However, the sources are basically contradicting the article by saying thrash metal is speed metal and so they arn't really relavent.--PureHolocaust 11:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Point taken - for now I'll just revert the definition back to its former. As for what you mentioned about Highway Star, I think what's important to keep in mind is that it was really a precursory speed metal song - it had the trappings of speed metal, but not really what is thought of when we speak of contemporary speed metal, or even speed metal that existed in the 80s. I always felt that the blending of the punk aesthetic with metal was more universal, rather than limited to one particular sect of metal. Wisdom89 13:41, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I have since removed the sources in the lead on account that they are of questionable validity. They should be replaced with ones that are more reliable. I'll see what I can come up with after digging around. Print sources might not be a bad idea. I left the punk reference in there though since I'm confident of its veracity, just not the extent of it. Feel free to amend as you see fit. Wisdom89 21:37, 20 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Well I guess speed metal does tend to have punk influence, but I can't say it is required. If you take motorhead for example, they do have punk influence in their music. If you take judas priest, they don't really have much punk influence, especially not in painkiller. But i think its accurate enough to keep it in.--PureHolocaust 22:27, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

List of Speed Metal bands
I believe it would be a great idea to see if we can maintain a list of speed metal albums, not single songs from glam rock bands. I'll start the list off with a couple. If you can think of anymore then add it to the bullet point list here. We can use this list to flesh out the article and to maybe rejuvinate the speed metal bands list article.


 * Judas Priest - Painkiller
 * Exciter - Heavy Metal Maniac
 * Rage - Perfect Man
 * Anthrax - Fistful of Metal
 * Iron Angel - Hellish Crossfire
 * Gamma Ray - Powerplant
 * Helloween - Walls Of Jericho
 * Agent Steel - Unstoppable Force
 * X-Japan - Blue Blood
 * Iron Savior - Unification
 * Bulldozer - The Day of Wrath
 * Venom - Welcome To Hell
 * Running Wild - Gates To Purgatory
 * Paradox - Product Of Imagination
 * Abattoir - Vicious Attack
 * Grave Digger - Heavy Metal Breakdown
 * Riot - Thundersteel
 * Blind Guardian - Battalions of Fear

If anyone disagrees then say why below. --PureHolocaust 20:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think both lists should be implemented, as you mentioned it would flesh out the article a bit. - Deathrocker 21:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Both lists? what is the second one :S --PureHolocaust 22:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Second one is the song list that was already there. - Deathrocker 00:45, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if there is any particular reason whu noone lists Megadeth. They are one of the most famous bands which are actually labeled as speed metal. Izzy999 19:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Megadeth is not, nor have they ever been, Speed metal. Wisdom89 19:45, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Megadeth is not a speed metal band. They may have had the odd speed metal songs or even just some speed metal elements to some songs (for example Rattlehead from their debut) but I don't really think any of their albums can be considered speed metal.--PureHolocaust 12:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I dont doubt your knowledge of this genre, but IMO Megadeth is one of the best known bands that is actually cathegorised as speed metal. Are all these critics who label Rust in Peace as one of the most innovative speed metal albums wrong, for example? Many of the songs on that album are very fast, poison was the cure for example, and it is difficult for me to comprehend how Priests Painkiller can be a prime example of speed metal, while Megadeth isn't speed metal at all. Izzy999 21:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Rust in Peace is a thrash album with power metal tendancies. Again there are some speed metal sections in the songs as with most of their albums. As they are considered one of the key thrash metal bands... considered as one of the "big four" of thrash metal, it would be wrong to be classify them as speed metal.--PureHolocaust 16:08, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Fistful of Metal is early thrash. It is very similar to Kill em all by Metallica. I think the song "Metal Thrashing Mad" gives the genre away. All Speed Metal is spedded up Heavy Metal that rose as part of the NWOBHM. As Heavy Metal took root some groups went for the slower old Black Sabbath sound invented Doom Metal and some went faster and more energetic inventing Speed Metal. From Speed Metal evolved Thrash Metal. As for power metal then this is more about vocal style. Megadeth have nothing to do with power metal. What many people often get confused as power metal music is mostly progressive / symthonic & neo-classical and takes influence from classical music using fast finger picked technical guitaring and keyboards. power metal and progressive etc often overlap.

Welcome to Hell is really just heavy metal. It really isn't that fast and isn't very melodic like speed metal. It may even be a stepping stone to thrash metal and black metal.

Could maybe use some clarification?
I'm speaking as a user unfamiliar with the usual genre classifications used in music. The purpose of encyclopedia articles is twofold of course, to give people familiar with a usbject more detailed information on that subject, and to give people unfamiliar with a subject a basic understanding. This article appears to do well on the former task, but not so well on the latter. That is to say, it doesn't really give any explanation as to what speed metal actually is, except by defining it in terms of musicians and specific songs, which the reader may not have heard before. So I ask, could someone ass a description, preferably near the top, of what qualities speed metal has, what makes a song in particulr speed metal or not? Errick 17:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Where's Megadeth
I find the fact that Megadeth is not mentioned once in this article disturbing.Seriuosly Megadeth is a solid staple of speed metal.So just mention Megadeth in this article please. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Necro Ferrum (talk • contribs) 16:25, 16 January 2007 (UTC).
 * You're absolutely right! The problem is that for the last 20+ years Megadeth has been falsely categorized as thrash (sure they have their moments, but come on). The moment anyone adds Megadeth to the article some bozo (who obviously can't tell the difference between speed and thrash) comes and removes them. I don't worry about it since it's too late to do anything about it now. I think it's way more important to get "metalheads" to realize that bands like Machine Head and Pantera aren't thrash rather than Megadeth. --Pasajero 02:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I would say Megadeth deserves classification as both a speed and a thrash metal band--E tac 01:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad to see Megadeth is now mentioned, and in response to your comment Pasajero Megadeth is both Thrash and Speed Metal.So they should be mentioned in both articles, Necro Ferrum Out.

SPEED PICKING
um wouldnt this be a defining characteristic of speed metal? so again please explain to me how fight fire with fire isnt a speed metal song.
 * Fight Fire with Fire is a Thrash Metal song.--129.31.68.55 12:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE
how in the world is this song not speed metal? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.16.193.253 (talk) 13:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC).
 * Definately thrash. "Trapped Under Ice" is more speed than "Fight Fire With Fire". --Pasajero 01:11, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It's thrash. speed is faster sounding NWOBHM and tends to not be about, i dont know, NUCLEAR WARS AND DESTRUCTIVE SHIT LIKE THAT!

Hard Rock Influence
Im sure Hard Rock had some Influence on Speed Metal, Queen, Deep Purple, MC5, and just about any Hard Rock band that played fast had to have some influence on Speed Metal. Gordomebix 03:15, 15 April 2007 (UTC)Gordomebix

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Forgive me for being a little skeptical, but....
"Speed metal" doesn't sound like a real genre to me. The article never identifies any specific characteristics to the genre (other than a fast tempo), and the examples it cites of speed metal consist almost entirely of bands associated with other genres. What emerged in the 1980s was thrash, whose immediate progenitor was NWOBHM. There was no distinct "speed metal" genre to bridge the gap; the article seems to be talking simply about proto-thrash. marbeh raglaim 07:50, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

"the article seems to be talking simply about proto-thrash." It sort of is talking about proto-thrash. But speed metal and thrash metal are different. Thats what most people dont understand.

"The article never identifies any specific characteristics to the genre (other than a fast tempo)" Heres a direct quote from the article: "keeping (Judas Priest's, Black Sabbath's, Led Zeppelin's, and Deep Purple's) melodic ideas" Translation: it is very melodic. Prepare to be Mezmerized! :D 16:11, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


 * There is also a difference lyric wise: thrash deals for example with satanism, the occult and social problems (what's the right word), and speed metal has lyrics more like heavy metal (can't come up with something general right now). Don't remember where i heard/read this, but it may have come from Metal: A Headbanger's Journey. Grinder0-0 21:51, 21 October 2007 (UTC)


 * That's a faulty blanket statement; lyrics can't be used to differentiate between thrash and speed. Many bands in the German, French, and East-European speed metal scenes (most notably KAT, the first Running Wild album and Avenger) had MORE occult imagery and lyrical themes than many thrash bands.  Also, people seem to forget that lyrics dealing with the occult or Satanic topics (whether they are serious or not or whether they are pro or con is another matter) are not limited to thrash or extreme metal bands, they've been an integral part of the lyrical and visual content of traditional heavy metal.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.21.190.132 (talk) 21:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I am open to being convinced that speed metal is a real genre, but this article hasn't come close to making the case, and in any case is poorly written.

Just saying it's played at a fast tempo and has melody and traditional lyrics and lacks thrash elements doesn't say much or justify its inclusion in its own genre. None of those characteristics suggest much of a separation from classic metal. The definition is still vague enough to include a wide variety of unrelated music.

What this article needs is (1) A list of specific characteristics that distinguish it from other metal subgenres, including heavy metal itself (2) Examples of bands that fit the bill without being associated primarily with other genres (3) A suitable time frame for speed metal to develop (4) Most importantly, support for these claims from reliable sources. marbeh raglaim 13:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to preface this by stating that I occasionally find Martin Popoff's definitions a little unusual, but at the back of his weighty 'Collectors Guide To Heavy Metal' he delineates between Speed Metal and Thrash (p.529):

"Speed Metal - exactly what it says and nothing more. Loosely the same as OTT without the additional connotations. Speed metal can either be done thrash or techno, that is with reckless abandon, or scientific precision, yet it is very often thrash because most intelligent bands quickly see the limiting aesthetics of constantly playing at 78 RPM, and move on to ultra-heavy, groove or techno forms of metal. Metallica, Megadeth and Slayer went this route. Anthrax did the opposite for a couple of records, until seeing the light with Sound Of White Noise."

Either way, there's a decent source for a definition of speed metal, so should be mentioned somewhere. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 03:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

In other words, the first source that people here bring to define the term basically admits it has no precise definition ("exactly what it says and nothing more") and, contrary to what others here have insisted, overlaps with thrash. marbeh raglaim (talk) 07:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

This article...
Guys..I think we need to acknowledge that in common usage, the term speed metal is most often used as a synonym for thrash metal, though more often for the melodic / less raw and thrashy bands. It seems odd to claim it as a distinct genre and then try to say that every band from Deep Purple up is part of it just because they released some faster metal songs...one song does not include a band in a genre...influence yes...but its not really clear in the article
 * Most people who use it as a synonym aren't even thrashers. It is usually used (in that context) by fans of other heavy metal genres who know little about the genre. Any thrasher can tell you that speed metal is not the same as thrash. You pretty much hit the nail on the head with that definition (although you could have mentioned the lack of hardcore punk influence in speed metal). --Pasajero 11:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
 * This user speaks the truth. "Thrash metal" is a term invented to sell records, and is rejected by most people with some insight into the issue. "Speed metal" is the correct name. 88.70.26.217 (talk) 12:34, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Now there's some POV. Just like at the bottom of this page where a reader tries to argue that this article shouldn't exist. Where do you find the time to make these fairy tale opinions up? 156.34.222.121 (talk) 13:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Aces High
I wouldn't call Aces High Speed Metal, Be Quick or Be Dead I would for sure. 24.65.42.159 (talk) 02:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

This article needs some work, no a lot of work.
Can this article be sorted out? Speed metal IS a valid genre that existed before thrash metal and power metal. There are bands who play pretty much exclusively speed metal, at least as much speed metal as other bands play of their main genre. I don't have all that much time to update this article. If someone else that has extensive knowledge on this genre of metal can rewrite this whole article it would be much appreciated. If nothing is being done in a couple of weeks then i may have time at that point to rewrite it.

There are also far more bands playing speed metal than is mentioned either here or the speed metal musical group page. A lot of early thrash metal bands were playing speed metal early on too, anthrax is an example. I think a lot more can be said about speed metal than this article lets on. It dwells too much on the old metal/rock bands who wrote single, one of speed metal songs. It should discuss the genre more, talk about bands who are much more speed metal such as agent steel. Talk about the misconception that speed metal and thrash metal are the same/similar. Discuss what speed metal is and why it differs from other forms of metal, also discuss the similarities.

Thanks to anyone who can add more/change more to this article to make it better.


 * This isnt a genre of music, its a cross term. The bands that 'play pure speed metal' ironically, always play power or thrash. And articles tend to do that, however, we are cracking down on made up genres such as this one. Ley Shade 12:18, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You're either foolish or uneducated in metal to think that speed metal isn't a valid genre of metal. First lets compare speed metal to other "genres" listed on the heavy metal page. Avant garde metal? These bands fit into other genres of metal so why is that being kept? Folk metal also tends to fit into other genres of metal too.


 * It's because those terms actually describe something that is unique, not something generic. Speed Metal means nothing.24.23.168.20 12:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

If you listen to a lot of metal, especially 80's metal, you can clearly hear the difference between speed metal and thrash metal. Power metal was pretty much non-existant at that time also. The first thrash metal band to release an full length is usually considered metallica. This means that early venom can't be classed as thrash metal, they definitely can't be classes as traditional heavy metal nor power metal. What are they? Are they a mix of power metal and thrash metal? No because them genres wern't even around then. They are straight up speed metal. Exciter was another band that played pretty pure speed metal. They released a full length in the same year as metallica. If they were thrash you would have definitely heard more about them than you do currently.

Whatever a lot of people say, speed metal IS a genre of metal that predates thrash and power metal. There are speed metal bands and albums that cannot be classified as power metal nor thrash metal. --PureHolocaust 15:31, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * First off, i work in the Metal Scene around the world, and have contact daily with many of the bands your on about. Second, i lead the WP:HMM by self appointment as secutary.


 * No, Speed Metal is NOT a genre. I suggest reading the musical genre article. It is a MINOR term used by SOME fans, to depict MINOR differences between one band and the other. Speed Metal is not a genre, and Wikipedia will not list deep inaccuracies on the basis of a minor set of people wanting to 'create' a genre for their favourite, or lest favourite, bands. Ley Shade 15:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

You haven't answered anything i've just said, you've just gone out of your way to attempt to prove how knowledgeable you are to me. Speed metal is known as a valid genre by most people who actually know there metal. This isn't some made up genre based on bands sounding slightly different to one another. Back in the 80's a lot of bands sounded way more similar than bands these days. As metal grew, new genres moved further away from the original sound of metal. This is why to people who are new to metal (not saying you are) and who have jumped into black metal, death metal and modern doom metal may not appreciate the difference between speed metal and thrash metal; however, most fans of heavy metal who were listening to metal through the 80's tend to KNOW that speed metal existed as it was far more noticable as a genre than as it is now.

I would also like to point out AGAIN that speed metal predates both thrash metal AND power metal. But i'm guessing you won't try to question this. --PureHolocaust 15:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * First off, all the bands claimed to be Speed Metal, are mostly Power Metal and Thrash Metal. Ive also seen Gothic Metal, Black Metal and Death Metal bands called Speed Metal.


 * Second, im not at all new to metal and i do know what im talking about, trying to act bigger than anyone here will simply get your POV ignored.


 * Third, it was, and always has been, a term used to describe bands that dont fit Power or Thrash metal perfectly, due to one minor difference. It is not a genre, and after studying genres for years, and providing you with an article that gives yew a nice summed up defination, it would be foolish to try to argue it is a genre.


 * Speed Metal is an old term, used to talk about bands from across genres. Nothing more, nothing less. Ley Shade 16:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, bands who ARE speed metal are not power metal or thrash metal. Bands who CLAIM to be speed metal may not be speed metal, i agree. This happens in every genre. Back in the 80's bands claimed to be genres that they are not considered now. Didn't venom think they were power metal?

I am not giving my point of view. There is clearly a difference between speed metal and power metal and thrash metal, maybe you just do not see that. Why am i acting bigger than you? I started this talk topic not to 'act bigger than Ley Shade' but to help improve a topic about a valid genre of heavy metal music. I can see that you are the one instigating trouble.

It wasn't and will never be a term used to describe bands that don't fit power or thrash metal. I've pointed this out many times and I won't carry on this. And the article you pointed out does not apply because I disagreed with you... obviously.

I'm not here to look for trouble, even if you somehow assume I am. I am here to help improve wikipedia just like you. As many people do (which is against what you say) think that speed metal is a main genre of heavy metal music (more so than some claimed on the heavy metal genre page) I do not understand why it is not accepted.

I don't think there is any use in you replying again unless you state something which hasn't been stated yet. I'm not dumb... so don't think that i've missed some huge important point you had previously made. Thanks for your time. --PureHolocaust 17:46, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Can you name 1 band which is distinctly speed metal and neither thrash nor power metal? I know I can't. marnues 18:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Motorhead (not constantly speed metal on all albums but not thrash nor power), Venom (definitely not power, some might say thrash but not many would say venom started thrash metal), first helloween (some might say power metal but i'm sorry, their first album sounds nothing like their later power metal albums musically and it certainly isn't thrash metal). And if we are talking about songs then a lot of iron maiden track 1's are pretty much speed metal, not power nor thrash. Speed metal is sped up trad metal. Thrash metal is punk influenced trad metal. Power metal WAS heavier trad metal (not anymore but thats nothing to do with speed metal). These are all different in my opinion and the opinion of many others.


 * First off, your last statement made several personal attacks, so you violated WP:NPA. Then your also trying to violate WP:CITE and WP:NPOV. Well, thats three policys. Let me see, Policys > Your POV.


 * (Edit) I just checked your contributions. Albight updating and expanding some articles, i find it ironic how youve been changing bands genres from Thrash Metal/Power Metal to Speed Metal on various articles. Ley Shade 18:45, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I specifically aimed my last reply to prevent any personal attacks. What i'm also talking about is nothing to do with neutral point of view in the article. Discussing whether an article deserves to be classified as something (or even exist on wikipedia) is nothing to do with keeping a neutral point of view because it either is... or isn't.

I would also like to point out that the ONLY contribution I have made to wikipedia is to pretty much recreate the agent steel page because there were 4 lines of text... look how much there is now? I've kept everything neutral within that too... It already said in the article they were SPEED METAL. It said that before i edited it, it said that on page creation yet there was only the classification of thrash metal at the bottom. I changed this to speed metal as the speed metal band catagory page already existed (so why not use it?) and so i changed it to where it was supposed to go.

Which bands have i changed from thrash metal/power metal to speed metal? Spreading lies such as this must surely be against the rules... --PureHolocaust 19:15, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * WHAT A MISCONCEPTION! This article is so incorrect, and I am astonished at the lack of knowledge shown off by the writer(s) of it. The timeline says late 70's - before thrash metal or power metal! And speed metal is *NOT* always related to thrash metal or power metal. Examples: Motorhead is a great example. They predate power/thrash and arguably helped create speed metal. Venom is a good example too - some classify them as thrash, but anyone who knows what they are talking about would strongly disagree. Both bands predate power/thrash, and are NOT related to them. Judas Priest's Painkiller is not related to either genre really, and it came MUCH after speed metal was being played. Seriously, keeping the article like this shows off tons of POV, especially since this does not include that many (if not most) people think speed metal is a genre. PLEASE consider this, and do not show off this much ignorance. --Ryouga 01:08, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * PureHolocaust - thank you bro. You know what you're talking about.


 * "The bands that 'play pure speed metal' ironically, always play power or thrash." !!!!! This proves a lack of knowledge from your part. Please forgive me if I sound rude, but what a terribly ignorant thing to say. --Ryouga 01:12, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Judas Priest's "Stained Class" is generally regarded by thrashers (who almost always listen to speed metal as well) as the first speed metal album. Interesting how the article cites speed metal's origins as power and thrash CONSIDERING neither of those genres existed at the time. Pasajero 12:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with PureHolocaust, speed metal is a true Metal genre. --Epikon 17:01, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Guys, I think I speak for most of us when I say, "Let's start the rewrite!" I'll get to it some time soon, feel free to correct what you can.

My quick input. Though people keep labeling Juda; Priest as the first speed metal band, I would definitely say that's a very liberal use of the genre. The only album they did that I would consider speed metal is Painkiller. They are very much a Power Metal band. Motorhead is Heavy/Speed Metal. Can't say much about Venom as I don't like them much. However, I would bet that they would fall fairly well into Heavy Metal (maybe even Power Metal). I agree that this article needs a rewrite as I would say Speed Metal came from people playing any form of Heavy Metal that just wanted to speed up their music. But again it doesn't make a distinct genre. marnues 02:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree with you in part. Judas priest only released one album which can be considered a speed metal album that is painkiller. They are pretty much a traditional heavy metal band, definitely not to be considered a power metal band. Motorhead definitely had the speed metal sound inbedded into a lot of their work and i agree with what you said about them. Venom is no way near power metal, no way at all. You said you don't like them much, you should go back and listen to them again, not to like them but to realise that what you said is pretty damn false. They took Motorhead's sound to a new level and definitely retained the speed metal.


 * Not exactly sure how you read what I said about Venom, but I didn't say anything about them. I said I didn't know much about them, but I suggested that maybe they do fit into one of the other genres, which someone else said they were power metal. For all I know they do fit well into power metal, since as you pointed out, I don't know them very well. Also, I find a very common link between power metal of today and typical heavy metal of the late 70's early 80's, so I sometimes prefer to classify bands like Judas Priest or Iron Maiden as power metal. Probably should have stuck to heavy metal for Judas Priest here though. marnues 00:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Speed metal has a distinct sound. There are a wide variety of bands who play speed metal, but thats the same for any genre of music. Does Among the Living sound like Pleasure to Kill? How about Arghoslent sounding like Krisiun? The point is that every sub genre of metal really only has a few things that tie bands together, just like speed metal.--PureHolocaust 17:59, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure every genre has differences. Some bands take clear influences from other genres. However, that's not at stake here. Speed metal as a genre is completely non-unique. There are no speed metal bands who distinctly play only speed metal. They play some other form of metal (usually thrash or power, but also heavy, death, black), but speed it up to the point where it shares some similarities with other bands who play fast metal. If you think speed metal is a distinct genre, you'll have to find bands which don't fit well into any other metal genre. I certainly do not know of any bands like that. marnues 00:50, 22 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Let's see if I can come up with such a list. Pasajero 09:35, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Venom - to claim that musically they are black would be rather odd since black metal itself is not a real genre rather an ideology/mindset. Thrash would be a very inaccurate description of them. Power metal? Not even close.
 * Iron Angel - thrash!? no way! their riffs lack the choppiness of thrash; power is out of the question
 * Exciter - see Iron Angel
 * Bulldozer - see Venom

Here is an interesting thread that spurred up in the Metal-Archives forums. It speaks of the differences between speed and thrash. http://www.metal-archives.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=7639&highlight=&sid=a03d4665a29e43c7d347965537c7ffba Pasajero 11:34, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


 * This articles requires a massive overhaul. The current assertion that Speed Metal has its origins in Power and Thrash is utter rubbish. Speed Metal predates both genres. Thrash was basically a stylistic extention of Speed metal which added complexity, versatility, and tempo changes to the combined punk rock and new wave heavy metal music of the latter. Wisdom89 23:39, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

The idea that speed metal predates thrash or is even a genre in its own right is a product of the tendency for modern recent listeners to categorize metals evolution into a neatly digestable, chronological process. heavymetal>speed metal>thrash metal>death>black - However, the truth is that thrash and death metal evolved at the same time, and speed metal is just a made up genre super-imposed between heavy metal and death/thrash. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.135.20.224 (talk) 04:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I also do not recognise "Speed Metal" as an actual genre but rather a descriptive term meaning it is Heavy Metal played fast. Some "Speed Metal bands do have a distinct sound as in they are NWOBHM in sound or from a set era in Heavy Metal. Megadeth would market themselves as "speed metal" on their t-shirts. Many say Megadeth are also a thrash Metal band. Some of Helloween sound exactly like Iron Maiden only a bit quicker. Metalosaurus (talk) 18:15, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

This page needs deleted.
The usage of "Speed metal" for a separate and finite genre originated after the year 2000. There was no speed metal movement, and there is only a handful of bands that have the so called "speed metal" sound, and most of them only exist well after bonafide thrash metal bands existed. This is an issue of revisionist history, arbitrarily creating genre distinctions where there are none. As such I am going to delete the contents of this page and redirect speed metal to the thrash metal page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.135.20.224 (talk) 22:22, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


 * We using discussion and consensus before making wholesale changes to an article. Creating redirects effectively destroys the page. If you feel the article needs to be deleted submit it for WP:AfD Wisdom89 (talk) 23:06, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Speed metal does not exist. The genre was called power metal in the 80s, and speed metal refered to bands we know call thrash metal. The terms mean the same thing. Speed metal as a separate genre is a new concept that has no historical or logical base. End this discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.135.20.224 (talk) 01:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Again, you provide no reliable sources, making your edits more akin to original research and POV pushing than anything else. I already pointed you in the correct direction to address your objection to the article. Go through the proper channels instead of inciting an edit war. Wisdom89 (talk) 06:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to have to agree that this page should be deleted and redirected to thrash. It seems "speed metal" was a loose term that referred to fast metal bands back in the late 70s and early 80s.  Unlike THRASH metal or DEATH metal or POWER metal, there doesn't seem to be a generally accepted definition of SPEED metal.  I don't think you'll find anyone in the metal community who will give you a consistent or precise definition because there appears to be none.66.142.188.93 (talk) 14:07, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

New stuff
On the back of the Destruction's Sentence of Death EP, they labelled their music "Black Speed Metal". Musicaindustrial (talk) 17:44, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

hold on a second...
judas priest is not mentioned in this article? wow... painkiller practically laid the blueprints for speed metal. im sorry to be blunt but its an embarrasment on both ends. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.233.153.81 (talk) 03:52, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Painkiller came out in 1990... Metallica's and Slayer's first albums were released in 1983, so "speed metal" had already a considerable history when Judas Priest did that record. Musicaindustrial (talk) 12:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Didn't Queen invent speedmetal?
Yet they're not mentioned.

hmm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.178.177.128 (talk) 13:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, no. Speed metal is supposedly NWOBHM meets Hardcore, and these two didn't when Queen started their recording career. Musicaindustrial (talk) 21:52, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Punk Influences Confusion
This page struggles to define speed metal properly because the authors have trouble disassociating it from the punk influenced metal (I believe they call it proto-thrash) some NWOBHM bands (e.g., Motorhead, Venom), and even some thrash metal bands (some early Metallica, Slayer and Megadeth tracks) admittedly have played, while other NWOBHM bands' sound was inspired mainly from classical music and their predecessors' hard rock sound.
 * Yes, heavy metal in general is influenced by erudite music (classical is just a period of erudite music), but not that much. You can't really compare the complexity of Bach's Goldberg Variations to any metal song. Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:52, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * No, but it doesn't change the fact that it's more of an influence over metal than punk, if you take out the hard rock influences. Remnant76 (talk) 13:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

If Speed Metal is indeed a punk/metal hybrid then:

1. Tracks such as Highway Star and Stone Cold Crazy can't be considered speed metal, as they bear no punk elements.


 * Agreed. Musicaindustrial (talk) 11:01, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * As long as Highway Star is mentioned in this article along with punk influences, there will be a contradiction. Remnant76 (talk) 13:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

2. Thrash metal as we've all come to know it (i.e., the Master of Puppets "thrash metal" as opposed to the Hit The Lights "thrash metal") is a different genre from speed metal, as it dropped any punk influences "speed metal" could have had.


 * Not exactly. Some critics - most notably Simon Reynolds - considered the so-called "Punk '77" (Sex Pistols, The Damned, The Clash) to be some sort of "sped-up hard rock". Punks basically invented speed (i.e. high BPMs), so anything with over-the-top tempos has generally roots in punk or hardcore.
 * I could cite "Flight of the Bumblebee" as one of many fast-tempo pieces that existed long before Punk, I could probably even find other Rock songs to fit this criterion. Your claim that punks invented speed is somewhat irrelevant since genre classification is based on musical and lyrical characteristics, not on what social category its authors belong to. Not to mention, speed is relative, you don't "invent" it. Saying that would be like saying that the first music to ever use a different time signature defined a new genre and all subsequent music that's ever borrowed that time signature necessarily belongs to that genre. "Fast" tempo has existed for as long as music has; it's not a genre defining musical characteristic, it's a single mathematical parameter. Remnant76 (talk) 13:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Even in electronica that's true - no wonder there's the "hardcore techno" and "digital hardcore" subgenres, which have ridiculously fast tempos. So, if punk or hardcore didn't exist, thrash wouldn't exist. So these bands can't really "shed" these punk influences - they're inprinted in their music. Musicaindustrial (talk) 11:11, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * If that's true, then the entire history of music is imprinted in it. Just because thrash follows hardcore punk chronologically, doesn't mean it belongs to it.
 * Also, the only way to tell whether or not thrash would exist without punk or hardcore is by going back in time, eliminating punk and hardcore, coming back, and seeing if thrash still exists. Otherwise it's mere speculation. Remnant76 (talk) 13:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

3. None of the NWOBHM bands that had thrash metal elements but no punk elements in their music can be considered speed metal, regardless of how fast and heavy they are, yet they're still different from traditional metal.
 * Thrash metal didn't exist when NWOBHM first came around, and former's influence on the latter is rare. The only cases I know of is Iron Maiden's "Aces High" (which they declared it was the closest thing they ever got to speed metal) and Judas Priest's Painkiller album, admittedly influenced by thrash. There might be more, of course, but I believe these are rare occurances. Musicaindustrial (talk) 11:01, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thrash metal as we know it didn't exist, but all of the elements that would go on to be used extensively in thrash did. Since we've established that some NWOBHM bands didn't have punk influences and because they had these "proto-thrash" elements, this supports the view that thrash metal isn't necessarily influenced by punk.

Which makes them unclassified until their rightful subgenre, power metal, includes them. Iron Maiden fits the definition of power metal more than it does any other genre, yet it's not recognized as belonging to it.
 * I disagree. The "Power metal" tag is a slippery one. Metallica handed, in the early days, business cards with "power metal" written on them. I've also heard in the last 15 years people referring to Running Wild as the archetype for power metal.
 * Unlike speed metal, there's a widely accepted definition of power metal (hence the much less disputed power metal wiki). If speed metal is a punk/metal hybrid, then many NWOBHM bands simply don't belong to it and power metal seems like a much more suitable genre to classify them in. Remnant76 (talk) 13:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

The fact is, the inclusion of the punk sound was neither a rule in NWOBHM metal, nor in thrash metal.
 * The basic difference between 1970s hard rock (Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, etc) and NWOBHM was punk happening. Punk rock trimmed down the "fat" of prog and hard rock - 20 minute songs, live improvisations, etc - and the NWOBHM was affected by that, whether they were directly influenced by punk or not. Punk brought a new zeitgeist to rock music, and the NWOBHM certainly bears its influence. Musicaindustrial (talk) 11:01, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, this argument is invalid because it either uses non-musical characteristics (live improvisations, "zeitgeist") or technical parameters (duration, tempo, etc.)--that have always existed in music and can't be used to define a genre or to list genre-influences. Using your kind of reasoning, one could argue that all kinds of music are indirectly influenced by one another either way, yet we still separate them into genres. The only aspect that is directly related between thrash metal and hardcore and between NWOBHM metal and punk is their chronological proximity, which is the misleading factor. Remnant76 (talk) 13:28, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Classical music influences are much more present in what's known today as thrash metal, other forms of extreme metal, power metal, etc., than punk. For this reason it's unfair to classify thrash metal as having roots in punk and speed metal as being a heavy metal subgenre per se, even if major metal bands at the time had punk influences.

The other thing I cringe when I hear about is that thrash metal is a fusion between traditional metal and hardcore punk just because hardcore punk is "faster and more aggressive" and so is thrash metal. Not only is the idea that hardcore punk is more aggressive than anything before it is debatable (it seems not much is that aggressive about it other than the lyrics), but there's been music that is just as fast as either of them before any of them were formed. There's a reason bands like D.R.I. aren't considered to be the exact same genre as the "Big Four" of thrash: Hardcore punk hasn't influenced thrash metal, thrash metal has developed in parallel to hardcore punk.


 * That last sentence contradicts a number of facts. If Metallica weren't influenced by hardcore, why would they record The Misfits' "Last Caress / Green Hell" on their Garage Days Re-Revisited (1987) EP? Or Discharge's "Free Speech For the Dumb" for their Garage Inc. (1998) double-album? If Anthrax weren't influenced by hardcore, why did they record Discharge's "Protest and Survive" on Attack of the Killer B's (1991)? Or Slayer, who recorded songs by D.R.I. and Minor Threat on their Undisputed Attitude (1998) record? Megadeth also recorded a punk song - The Sex Pistols's "Anarchy in the UK" on So Far, So Good... So What! (1988). Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:52, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * There's only a contradiction if you consider that Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth, etc. = Thrash Metal, i.e. if you classify musical genres based on their representative bands' entire discography. The problem with that is, most bands tend to produce different music over time. Metallica covered Stone Cold Crazy and Ennio Morricone stuff, Slayer covered Iron Maiden and Judas Priest songs and also played death metal, Megadeth covered Paranoid, and released the album Risk, which is entirely devoid of metal and unrelated to punk rock. Still think you can base a genre's influences on covers?
 * As I pointed out in the first paragraph, there's a clear distinction between much of these bands' early work and what's typically known as thrash metal, and that difference is the punk sound and/or blast beats. The fact that thrash metal bands have produced punk-influenced music, in itself doesn't mean thrash metal is punk-influenced. Those early songs (e.g., Hit The Lights, Rattlehead, Angel of Death) aren't thrash metal songs per se.


 * Speaking of Stone Cold Crazy, it's considered by many to be the first thrash metal song, and even listed on Wikipedia as such. As you probably know, it precedes hardcore punk (and apparently punk rock itself) in time. I mentioned this in the thrash metal talk page: Compare any typical thrash metal song (e.g., Master of Puppets, Madhouse, Holy Wars, Symphony of Destruction) to Stone Cold Crazy on a strictly musical basis and you'll realize the latter bears a much stronger resemblance to the former than to hardcore punk, in fact it won't have more hardcore punk elements than the Queen song if you ignore shouted vocals, which isn't a characteristic that's common to all thrash metal (I'm sure you don't need me to reference thrash metal songs with sung lyrics). Remnant76 (talk) 13:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

This isn't original research, it's logic. Either speed metal should redirect to power metal, or it should be omitted in favor of proto-thrash, which would be clearly defined and recognized as a punk/thrash metal fusion genre, in which case thrash metal should be defined as a pure metal subgenre. As long as this doesn't happen, this article and other related articles will remain vague and unclear. There's simply a logical problem in inventing such genres as "Crossover thrash", "metalcore" or "grindcore" if their heavy metal influences already have punk influences.

Remnant76 (talk) 09:43, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Erm?
Didn't this article used to be a lot bigger? What the hell happened? (Albert Mond (talk) 01:14, 28 March 2009 (UTC))
 * When I Google "Speed Metal" the first thing that comes up is this bloody article. That said, we need to expand this thing. A LOT. (Albert Mond (talk) 01:34, 28 March 2009 (UTC))
 * Also, this article NEEDS a bit on Motorhead. People will come to this article already knowing that Motorhead was one of the most important groups in the creation of Speed Metal, and won't learn anything. (Albert Mond (talk) 01:44, 28 March 2009 (UTC))
 * Oh, gosh darnit. Who are the nincompoops who cut this article down, anyway? First off, the 'weasel words' claim is invalid. The sentence referred to as 'weasel words' here obviously falls under Exceptions, as it talks about a belief. (Albert Mond (talk) 01:53, 28 March 2009 (UTC))
 * Alright, I've started a new (sourced, yay!) section on speed metal's origins. Hopefully someone who knows more about this than me can come in and help expand it. (Albert Mond (talk) 02:06, 28 March 2009 (UTC))
 * This article was trimmed down because it had too much original research and few reliable sources. Besides, there's a lot of controversy surrounding this supposed "genre" - many argue that it isn't distinguishable from thrash at all. Musicaindustrial (talk) 08:24, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * While I can understand the removal of unsourced material, the argument that Speed Metal and Thrash Metal are one and the same seems inherently flawed to me. I mean, we have a source we consider reliable stating that Speed Metal is, in fact, a genre. I mean, someone can argue that all Hard Rock is Heavy Metal. (Albert Mond (talk) 17:09, 28 March 2009 (UTC))
 * "...the argument that Speed Metal and Thrash Metal are one and the same seems inherently flawed to me." I see that the other way around. I've been into metal for about 17 years, and the fault lines between thrash and speed metal were always confusing. For example: I have one printed source stating that the guys from Anthrax said that they began to be called "thrash metal" in 1984, but another source states that they did a tour called "Speed Metal Tour '86". So, which one of those is correct? The journalists or the band? Tough call.


 * "I mean, we have a source we consider reliable stating that Speed Metal is, in fact, a genre." Yes, Allmusic is generally a reliable source (I was the one who put this source on the article). But it has many flaws concerning metal genres... They say that speed metal and thrash are different, but they don't establish any objetive criteria to differentiate one from another, apart from speed metal being "faster" - which is pretty vague. What is "fast"? How many BPMs is "fast"? How many "fast" songs it takes to be considered "speed metal" band, instead of a "thrash" group? The Allmusic article avoids those issues.


 * "I mean, someone can argue that all Hard Rock is Heavy Metal." Hmmm... Not really. While Sabbath is considered by many the 1st metal band, Heavy metal as a genre truly came on its own with the New Wave of British Heavy Metal, in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Hard rock, on the other hand, is at least 10 years older than NWOBHM. You can see its embrionic form on Cream, Blue Cheer, Iron Butterfly and Hendrix, and later on Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Alice Cooper, AC/DC, Kiss, Cheap Trick, etc. Hard rock still retains much of its blues and psychedelic heritage, while Heavy metal is (almost) completely stripped of these elements. Musicaindustrial (talk) 17:42, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

"I see that the other way around. I've been into metal for about 17 years, and the fault lines between thrash and speed metal were always confusing. For example: I have one printed source stating that the guys from Anthrax said that they began to be called "thrash metal" in 1984, but another source states that they did a tour called "Speed Metal Tour '86". So, which one of those is correct? The journalists or the band? Tough call." Is it not obious? Speed and Thrash are closely related. Many early Thrash metal bands playes some speed metal at times. For a comparison, take ACDC. ACDC's music was generally either Hard Rock or Heavy Metal, but they preferred to be called plain 'Rock'n'Roll'. Another example is Deep Purple, who don't like being called "Heavy Metal" or even "Classic Rock". Bands seldom consciously pioneer genres. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Albert Mond (talk • contribs) 18:59, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

"Yes, Allmusic is generally a reliable source (I was the one who put this source on the article). But it has many flaws concerning metal genres... They say that speed metal and thrash are different, but they don't establish any objetive criteria to differentiate one from another, apart from speed metal being "faster" - which is pretty vague. What is "fast"? How many BPMs is "fast"? How many "fast" songs it takes to be considered "speed metal" band, instead of a "thrash" group? The Allmusic article avoids those issues." This is about verifiability.
 * You haven't answered my question. Where's objetive criteria diferentiating speed from thrash? And I want specific, technical details - BPMs, types of guitar scales used, lyrical themes, etc. Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, we've verified that Speed Metal is a genre. Your request for BPMs, scales, and lyrical themes is extremely silly. (Albert Mond (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC))

We have a generally reliable source saying Speed Metal exists. We trust the source.
 * Like I said before, Allmusic is generally reliable - not always reliable. Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Just because you don't know the difference between Thrash and Speed doesn't give you the power to question the source itself from a Wiki standpoint. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Albert Mond (talk • contribs) 19:03, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Read something called wikiquette. Don't automatically assume you know more than others. For all your arguing, I still haven't seen a reasonable explanation from you distinguishing speed from thrash. I know the probable differences because I'm a musician, but I'm curious of what your thoughts on the issue are. And, oh - sign your posts. Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not assuming I know more than you. The fact that you don't recognize Speed Metal as a genre says that by itself. If you haven't seen a reasonable explanation, you probably weren't looking. I'm a musician, too. I've released two CDs, and both are rubbish. I'm sorry I forgot to sign what a small number of my posts. (Albert Mond (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC))

"Hmmm... Not really." Arguing that Speed and Thrash are the same thing is no more valid than arguing that Hard Rock and Metal are the same thing. Speed Metal is older than thrash. "While Sabbath is considered by many the 1st metal band," Zeppelin is considered by many to be the first metal band, too.
 * By whom? Sources. Reliable ones. Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Led_Zeppelin Read the article, look at its source. Quit asking me things before looking for them on Wiki.(Albert Mond (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC))

"Heavy metal as a genre truly came on its own with the New Wave of British Heavy Metal, in the late 1970s and early 1980s" that's entirely speculative.
 * Show me a source that proves your point, then we begin talking about speculation... Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music lists that as an opinion. (Albert Mond (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC))

"Hard rock, on the other hand, is at least 10 years older than NWOBHM." this is relevant only if you consider NWOBHM the first 'real' metal, something relatively few do.
 * "Relatively few do." Who? Sources. Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I was assuming you did. Perhaps I misunderstood what you were implying. (Albert Mond (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC))

"You can see its embrionic form on Cream, Blue Cheer, Iron Butterfly and Hendrix," embryonic form of Metal or Hard Rock?
 * Pay attention: I wrote hard rock. Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I know you did. But calling them early Hard Rock is rather outlandish. (Albert Mond (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC))

Those bands pioneered early (or proto) metal.
 * Says who? Sources. Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Again, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music

Look at the sources yourself. (Albert Mond (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC)) Actual Hard Rock is even older.
 * Really? And who are those earliest hard rock bands? I'm dying to know. Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The Kinks, The Rolling Stones, The Yardbirds, The Who, etc. (Albert Mond (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC))

"and later on Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Alice Cooper, AC/DC, Kiss, Cheap Trick, etc." Led Zeppelin was doing it at around the same time as Hendrix.
 * No. Jimi Hendrix released his debut Are You Experienced in 1967, when acid rock was reaching its height. Led Zeppelin started releasing records in 1969, when acid rock was alreading fading away and hard rock was taking its place (along with prog rock - King Crimson released their debut in 1969). Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll accept that. (Albert Mond (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC))

"Hard rock still retains much of its blues and psychedelic heritage, while Heavy metal is (almost) completely stripped of these elements." again, speculative.
 * Really? Show me a source stating I'm wrong on this one... Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music says that it eventually discarded much of its blues influence. It does NOT, however, say that Heavy Metal is Hard Rock minus the blues influence. (Albert Mond (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC))

Your claim that Sabbath isn't Metal is an extreme deviation from the beliefs of Wiki and the vast majority of reliable sources. (Albert Mond (talk) 18:35, 28 March 2009 (UTC))
 * I've never said that Sabbath wasn't metal. Read again what I wrote. Don't twist my words to fit your arguments. Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I read what you said. It only implied that you didn't think Sabbath was Metal, as Sabbath was extremely blues influenced, and came before NWOBHM.(Albert Mond (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC))

Furthermore, have you even read both the Speed and Thrash articles on Allmusic? I'll give you a few samples that should answer your questions.


 * You're assuming you know more than me... Again. Don't be arrogant. Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I read them, and they gave very clear differences between the two. I'm assuming I know more than you, because I doubt that you read them. (Albert Mond (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC))

1. " Crossing the New Wave of British Heavy Metal with hardcore punk, speed metal was extremely fast, abrasive, and technically demanding — the bands played fast, but their attack was precise and clean. In that sense, speed metal always remained true to its metal roots." from the Speed Metal article vs "However, the dexterity and constant intensity required to play speed metal proved limiting to some, and a variety of different approaches quickly took shape: some thrash bands concentrated more on midtempo grooves, occasionally accelerating into speed-metal realms; some, like Metallica and Megadeth, used their instrumental technique to craft more intricate and progressive music; others emphasized the music's aggression to project theatrically menacing images." from the Thrash Metal article. Already, we have an established difference between the two.


 * Speed metal can also be very complex. Speed metal can also used midtempo grooves. Late 1980s Destruction is a perfect example of that. But aren't they thrash too? Isn't that dog chasing its own tail? Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)


 * You said they were an example of Speed Metal with Thrash properties, but they're a Thrash band. They are a THRASH BAND with THRASH QUALITIES. Don't use them as an example of pure Speed Metal. (Albert Mond (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC))

2. "Because it was so intense and technically demanding, speed metal quickly evolved into thrash, which allowed greater leeway in terms of tempo, groove, and instrumental dexterity." from Speed Metal and "Thrash was often technically accomplished, taken at fast tempos, and emphasized heavy, sometimes atonal guitar riffs over melody; however, these generalizations are far from absolute rules. In its early days, thrash was essentially the same thing as speed metal, the product of American bands who in the early '80s fused the lean, vicious attack of the New Wave of British Heavy Metal with the tempos of hardcore punk and Motorhead." from Thrash Metal. Now, we have a contrast between the two types, and what could be a direct answer to your questions about how Thrash and Speed were sometimes referred to interchangeably. Keyphrase here is "In its early days".

3. Now, I'll bring up the fact that numerous Wikipedia articles on Metal link to this page.(Albert Mond (talk) 19:15, 28 March 2009 (UTC))


 * Until you show me some reliable sources, I'm considering the results of this discussion nil. Musicaindustrial (talk) 20:26, 28 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Wiki considers allmusic a reliable source. You, on the other hand, seem to be trying to use your very personal opinions to warp both Wiki and overall reality. (Albert Mond (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2009 (UTC))
 * If you have a look at Allmusic's examples of Thrash metal and then compare them to Allmusic's examples of Speed metal, you'll notice they're the same bands, same albums and same songs. If it's as reliable a source as you make it out to be, then if anything it actually proves the idea that both genres are the same. Face it, even if you can tell the "difference", they overlap way too much to be considered separate genres. Remnant76 (talk) 20:56, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Allmusic reference
I think this article should be ignored as a s reference. As anyone with knowledge in the history of metal would know, the article better describes thrash metal than speed metal, which are two distinct concepts. Speed metal originally formed as just that: speed metal. The elements of hardcore punk were mixed with the NWOBHM to form thrash. Speed metal had existed in different forms that predated the NWOBHM. Helltopay27 (talk) 01:08, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Are these sources relibale?
Here are my sources about Deep Purple's song "Highway Star" being the first Speed metal song http://www.helium.com/items/779936-what-is-speed-metal. Are they relibale? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockgenre (talk • contribs) 22:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No they aren't. The Real Libs-speak politely 03:26, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

A Lot Of Nothing...
This article is a plain joke. Where are the defining characteristics, where is the genre history and its inclusive bands? All this article talks about is pre-cursor songs and thrash metal. "Before and After"...where is Speed Metal itself? While for the definition we seem to have a block to go in-depth - as no source seems to be available to clearly define speed metal - sources can clearly allow us to write out the history of clearly non-thrash metal bands like Helloween, Anvil, Exciter, Agent Steel, Purgatory, Grave Digger and Running Wild.

A reader could then go on to listen to these bands and make himself an idea of how it is different from thrash metal. Its simple understatement for lack of anything better. I am also aware that the debut albums of the big four are also partly in the speed metal genre, especially with Fistful Of Metal...that should be mentionned, but not overstated. Now, I'm expecting to get flamed and my point completely ignored by those asking for sources. So please note that I am only giving hints for those who wish to save the article, I am not aiming to edit anything, and that sources are quite available to flag the bands I listed as Speed Metal, just look for them yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.56.119.37 (talk) 16:45, 22 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I think I like what you're saying. I agree that the article's in pretty bad shape, too. Not too long ago, someone came in and added a few paragraphs that are hard to argue with, but horribly written. (Albert Mond (talk) 00:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC))

Can anyone actually define Speed Metal and list differences between Speed and Thrash?
The subject says it all. This article cites AllMusic, which says that Thrash is generally more varied in tempo and other characteristics than Speed Metal. But it is said right in the Thrash metal article that "Thrash metal generally features fast tempos, low-register, complex guitar riffs" and so on. It says nothing about variety at all. So I think we should first agree on the definition of the term, otherwise we're not coming anywhere. This article either should be brought to a normal state (not this horrific stub), or we should prove that Speed Metal and Thrash Metal are the same genre and delete this article. The problem with the latter is that Speed Metal is often clearly distinguished from Thrash (take AllMusic, for example), but if we want to make this article even remotely normal, we should find a reliable definition of Speed Metal and say, what exactly is the difference between its definition and definition of Thrash Metal accepted in Wikipedia. HotXRock (talk) 14:47, 9 January 2010 (UTC)


 * "Thrash metal generally features fast tempos, low-register, complex guitar riffs"
 * On the other hand, speed metal always features fast tempos. According to AllMusic, "Because it was so intense and technically demanding, speed metal quickly evolved into thrash, which allowed greater leeway in terms of tempo, groove, and instrumental dexterity."
 * Anyway, here's a decent source. (Albert Mond (talk) 16:02, 9 January 2010 (UTC))


 * OK, but still if most Thrash songs are fast, how do we distinguish fast Thrash Metal songs from Speed Metal songs? Thanks for the book, I'll check it out if there's an opportunity. HotXRock (talk) 19:00, 9 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I think the general view is that speed metal's more melodic/less abrasive. I was going to check with our AllMusic source on that, but it doesn't seem to have it. What's worse, they seem to have actually deleted their article on thrash metal, and they list the big four of thrash as speed metal. That site really gets worse every day. Anyway, the Sound of the Beast scan covers that. (Albert Mond (talk) 20:34, 9 January 2010 (UTC))


 * Yeah, that site is becoming sort of a mess. At least, they say that Thrash Metal evolved from Speed, but don't have any article on this genre. McIver's book on Metallica has some information on how Thrash Metal evolved and mentions Speed Metal, but I have only Russian edition, so I can't totally rely on my personal copy of the book. HotXRock (talk) 21:02, 9 January 2010 (UTC)


 * The idea that speed metal is "more melodic/less abrasive" is misleading and too subjective. I believe that the current general conception of "speed metal" is a faster and perhaps more aggressive derivative of early Judas Priest inspired glam-metal/pop-metal riff style, typically filling bars with a few long-duration power chords; except "speed metal" doesn't let the chords ring from one to the other, instead muting them quickly and chugging the rest by tremolo-picking and palm-muting their root note, coupled with relentless double bass drumming.


 * In the form of a guitar tab, it would be something like this:


 * The notes themselves don't matter here, just the rhythm and the way the root notes are used. Perhaps a little simplistic, but I think that's the core of it, and it's less ambiguous than the Allmusic defintion. As for thrash metal riffing, it's typically a much more intricate combination of low-register power chords, chugging, and open-string pedal points, giving an impression of extreme precision. Remnant76 (talk) 15:40, 18 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I think you're right, but do we have some sources to corroborate this point of view? And how should we act if different sources use some indistinct definitions? Lack of reliable sources is our main problem. HotXRock (talk) 14:35, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
 * If there are sources to confirm this, I don't know of them. This is merely my understanding of 'speed metal' from listening to songs other people refer to as such. My position is that the style is too uncommon and too close to thrash metal to warrant its own genre. Remnant76 (talk) 01:01, 3 April 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's the main problem, speed metal is mentioned everywhere, but when it comes to defining what it is, all we have is our original researches. Personally, I don't know, what to do. What is usually done when writing articles on topics which are mentioned frequently but have no sources to rely on? HotXRock (talk) 15:37, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Too short and too bad
To date, article is based on a single source (allmusic) almost entirely. It is necessary to add another sources that describe other sides of speed metal music.

I propose three paragraphs about three speed metal waves/scenes:

Garret Beaumain (talk) 22:00, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) The american Speed metal (Metallica, Anthrax, Exciter) which gradually evolved into Thrash metal.
 * 2) The german Speed metal (Running Wild, Rage, Blind Guardian, Helloween), that evolved into Power metal.
 * 3) The english Speed metal, to date the only described in the article: Motorhead and late Judas Priest.

yeah totally. I can see thir been a lot of problems defining exactly the difference between speed and thrash, as the to styles beed together but i have to take issue with the    Thrash metal is the North American version of the European speed metal    because that's not really what the source says.

this article horrible and should be completely rewritten by someone who is actually into and well versed on the topic —Preceding unsigned comment added by Darklordchris (talk • contribs) 06:11, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

My impression has always been that rather than applying to bands, the term 'speed metal' connoted a style of metal music that began in the mid to late 70's and early 80's, and served as a precursor to thrash and other types of fast, aggressive, primarily non-blues based metal music. The two songs that come to mind as having been labeled 'speed metal' and serving in this precursor role are Judas Priest's "Exciter" and Accept's "Fast as a Shark." (I'm sure that there are more, but those immediately leap to mind.)

As I understand it, then, the term is not properly applied to bands, but rather to songs, and at least early on, these types of songs were played by bands who were otherwise known for traditional metal. Later, once thrash, death, extreme, and other forms of fast, non-blues based metal were well-established, the term becomes largely redundant, although occasionally, non-thrash, death, extreme, etc. metal bands may dip back into the speed-well, as evinced by Judas Priest's Painkiller. AravisTarkheena (talk) 03:17, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Judas Priest Painkiller.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Judas Priest 'Painkiller' album like the 'Ram it Down' album before it were what was originally defined as "power metal". This along with groups like Pantera (power metal album), Armored Saint, Manowar, Metal Church, Savatage, Vicious Rumors, Meliah Rage etc.

Speed Metal was groups like Helloween who instead of having a sound centered on "Power!!" had instead that cleaner more crisp sound that was just centered around fast riffing. Listen to Speed Metal Symphony and you'll see it sounds like Helloween. Listen to Pantera 'power metal' and you'll see it is like Judas Priest 'Ram it Down' / 'Painkiller'. Metalosaurus (talk) 17:24, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Speed Metal Symphony
83.10.203.152 (talk) 00:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I would actually love to see Jason Becker and Marty Friedman of Cacophony credited for actually creating the speed metal genre... Well, at least the term :)

thanks!


 * No, Venom created the term back in the early 1980s, on an interview. And bands like Destruction were using it to label themselves, back in 1984-1985. Musicaindustrial (talk) 13:06, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Speed metal was a word that covered many other genres. It was often used to describe any group that played fast. Both power metal bands and thrash metal bands were often marketed as speed metal. The term as a unique genre was mostly centered on groups like Helloween. Listen to Speed Metal Symphony and songs like Helloween's "I want out" and you'll see what most people regarded as speed metal. Basically a clean and crisp nwobhm sound with extra fast riffs.

Power metal was stuff like Judas Priest's 'Ram it Down' or 'Painkiller' through to stuff like Pantera's 'Power Metal' album. Power metal was not about harmonic vocals but screamed Rob Halford style vocals. Manowar were the other big power metal band on certain songs. Even groups like Armored Saint were often regarded fell as being power metal on some songs. Metalosaurus (talk) 17:31, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Dragonforce?
In what ways are Dragonforce speed metal? They've seemed the epitome of flower/power metal to me. 65.182.53.225 22:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That person obviously doesn't know what speed metal is. Mistake on his/her part. --Pasajero 01:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Once again have had to remove DragonForce from this page. Fast metal does not equate to Speed Metal. Floydiac (talk) 13:12, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Of course they are speed metal. What they aren't is power metal. This is where people are going wrong as there is a whole new breed of metal fan who thinks what was once known as melodic / speed metal is power metal. Power metal was about "power" and was originally proto thrash metal before thrash metal separated and developed into a style of its own. Power metal fell to being associated with acts like Judas Priest (Ram it down / Painkiller), Pantera (Power Metal), Riot (Thundersteel), etc.

Speed metal was originally anything played fast whether it be thrash metal (Metallica, Anthrax, Megadeth, Slayer) or power metal (Judas Priest, Riot, etc) but as thrash metal and power metal became recognized labels then speed metal fell to being associated with groups like Helloween and similar and tended to have a very clean and clear guitar sound as also heard on the song "speed metal messiah".

Groups like Helloween brought in melodic elements which triggered a complete scene of melodic speed metal acts such as Dragonforce and Sonata Arctica which many wrongly are calling "power metal". Sonata Arctica when first starting out called themselves "speed metal" as this is what most recognized Helloween as. Genres don't change. Its just the younger fans who misunderstand through chinese whispers. I personally blame sites like 'metal archives' as they are made by one of a few people who are good at marketing impressive websites but don't nessessarily speak on behalf of the millions of fans at the time as it is usually just one man who writes the site. It is sites like this that the new younger fan reads and then goes and tells his mates as though he knows all about it. Find me one reference from back in the 80's & 90's where it labels Helloween as power metal and there won't be any as every where they were refereed to as speed metal. Notice on Helloween's official website they call themselves as "Melodic Metal". Look on both the Sonata Arctica & Dragonforce official website and you'll see they say the same. 77.96.252.34 (talk) 13:07, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Joe stump - Speed metal messiah & Cacophony- Speed Metal Symphony not mentioned??!!
How can anyone write an article on speed metal and not mention Joe stump - Speed metal messiah or Cacophony- Speed Metal Symphony? They were an are the anthems of speed metal. Also how come there is more mention of Helloween? They were considered the main speed metal band during the 80's. Bands like Sonata Artica also referred to themselves as speed metal when first starting out.

Metalosaurus (talk) 16:48, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

German Speed Metal
" Bands such as Running Wild,DragonForce, Grave Digger, Helloween, Rage and Paradox built upon the fast tempos of Accept to form the foundations of German speed metal."

Since when has DragonForce been German? They are British! And they are power metal with extreme metal influences, not speed metal in any way! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.197.18 (talk) 15:32, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Dragonforce are speed metal as are Helloween & Sonata Artica. Its young fans not knowing their genres that keep calling them as power metal. Power metal is about "power". Speed metal is about "speed". Bands like Manowar, Melliah Rage, Judas Priest's Painkiller, Pantera's "power metal" and Accept's Deathrow are power metal. Metalosaurus (talk) 13:42, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

lol
everyone here needs to get out more "speed metal" is like "stoner rock" or "acid house" and entyomotically speaking refers toi the fact that fast heavy metal tended to be asscosiated with the drug speed —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.172.191.4 (talk) 15:12, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

TRUE, but somehow always overlooked. 188.103.224.5 (talk) 13:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

How come no mention of budgie?
Budgie was without a doubt the first speed metal band and made speed metal songs as early as 1971 what a travesty someone please do a favor by adding information about budgie in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pc335 (talk • contribs) 16:23, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

In some ways I agree with what you're saying, although I wouldn't push it until their 3rd album, with Breadfan most notably. I point to that song and a couple others to argue that Speed Metal didn't actually need Punk to develop quite like Thrash did; where there were heavy loans, especially in the drumming/vocal execution department. Even the wartime/protest aesthetics are more often present in Thrash than Speed Metal. Is Breadfan a Speed Metal song? Yeah I`d say that fits the bill. Is Budgie a Speed Metal band? No. I just find very overdone the general consensus than Punk/Hardcore "made" all fast Metal as we know it, and that Punk never took a page out of Metal's book; when facts constantly prove that bit incorrect.

Are the songs Deep Purple - Fireball, Blue Oyster Cult - 7 Screaming Diz Busters, Aerosmith - Toys In The Attic, and Night Sun - Plastic Shotgun, Scorpions - Robot Man all early Speed Metal songs devoid of punk influence and even predating it? I would say yes.

If I might add my POV just for its sake, I would add that Black Sabbath - Paranoid, Led Zeppelin - Communication Breakdown and Deep Purple - Highway Star always get pinned as "Speed Metal" simply because they feature a guitar chug, but are in reality standards of traditional Heavy Metal. I'd make a much heavier case of Black Sabbath - Symptom Of The Universe, Iron Maiden - Purgatory and Accept - Breaker as more typically touching Speed Metal sensibilities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.53.173.84 (talk) 08:34, 23 April 2013 (UTC)

Into the Void?
I don't think that Into the Void by Black Sabbath is speed metal. It just isn't speedy. It's a fantastic song, one of my favorite from Sabbath, but it exemplifies Sabbath's slow, lumbering, sludgy style. I think that this song should be removed as an early speed metal song.

This article is silly, there is no such Genre as Speed Metal, that's why there are no good band examples. Just because a song is fast and uses distorted guitar makes it Speed Metal? Sheesh, this is ridiculous. 24.23.168.20 10:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, many people worldwide would beg to differ. And yes, Into the void is not speed metal. Honestly, some of the songs listed as "early speed metal" were horrible examples. Highway star? The song is barely metal, let alone speed metal. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.66.197.69 (talk) 17:19, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Too much misidentification
I've got people here calling songs like "Fight fire with fire" and "Welcome to hell" speed metal. Honestly people, please look up what thrash metal is. As for this genre...is this a genre or just faster heavy metal? Like, Overkill by motorhead is just faster metal — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.66.197.69 (talk) 17:26, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

Power Metal & Speed Metal get confused
Power Metal is groups such as Agent Steel & Pantera (post glam) and heavily takes influence of groups such as Manowar and Judas Priest (one of Pantera's biggest influence). The whole point to power metal is that it is supposed to represent "Power!" as in it is "Powerful!!" The album by Pantera titled "Power Metal" was in fact power metal. How is that people don't remember or recognize what was classed as the US power metal of the 80's. It seems people have forgotten and are listing a whole load of melodic metal bands as the core to what power metal is supposed to be (I'm guessing as many weren't around at the time). keyboards aren't an aspect of power. They are an aspect of melodic. The same is with melodic rock. Melodic rock often crossing the boundaries with progressive rock. The same is with the metal equivalent.

Speed metal is groups such as early Helloween. Speed metal is basically a faster form of heavy metal which grew from NWOBHM bands and it tends to go for a clean and undistorted sound. Often speed metal also crosses the boundaries with melodic metal which can be termed as melodic speed metal. If you look on the official Helloween website you will notice that they class themselves as "melodic metal".

http://www.helloween.org/band.html

It seems nowadays that a whole load of people are confusing speed metal, power metal and melodic metal (and melodic speed metal i.e. Dragonforce). This is why so many people are disputing or are confusing matters in discussions. Often both thrash metal and power metal groups have been labelled as being speed metal as they obviously play fast and there is such a fine line between them. Some people would argue that both thrash metal and power metal are sub genres of speed metal. Other would argue that thrash metal has much more of a punk influence but this isn't the issue and doesn't matter.

Metalosaurus (talk) 07:50, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
 * You just don't know anything about what power metal is. Your point of view is in some sort of vacuum from music taxonomy used by the rest of the world. I would recommend you a book like A To Z of Power Metal by Garry Sharpe-Young to clean off your delusions. Garret Beaumain (talk) 05:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

My point of view is based on me listening to the stuff and buying the albums at the time and watching the interviews. I can actually remember Pantera dramatically jumping from being a glam band to being a power metal outfit. I then remember them releasing Cowboys from Hell which they originally classed as power metal but most fans regarded it as Metallica rip off thrash metal (Ride the Lightning era - Metallica had just released ...And Justice For All and were the main group at the time).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0S6CKT4LfU

I then remember the "groove" banner coing out and them calling it "power groove". The title of the 1992 album "Vulgar Display Of Power" is also them saying they are still power metal (power groove). They used to have the title "power groove" on their official website until recently but I have just checked and they have changed it. So where was the journalist that you need to read at this time? How is it that back in the 80s and early 90's power metal meant a more aggressive American speed metal answer to the NWOBHM scene and here we are in 2010 with young journalist and fans saying it is what was then referred to as melodic metal. Helloween were around at the time. Look on their official website and see what they categorize themselves as. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Metalosaurus (talk • contribs) 08:01, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
 * In order for power metal, speed metal and melodic metal to be confused, there would first have to be clear and consensual definitions of speed metal and melodic metal. Given the current absence of such definitions, people can use the latter terms to label just about any style of metal music they see fit, and you lack the authority to call it a confusion. Remnant76 (talk) 16:42, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Speed metal was often marketed as anything fast and often included thrash bands such as Megadeth, Anthrax & Slayer etc but as thrash became the all new big name, speed metal became regognised to most as that NWOBHM inspired Helloween style clean and clear sound with an emphasis on speed. This is confirmed when you list to Joe Stump's "Speed Metal Messiah". You'll notice how it has that same sound. Speed metal like heavy metal (NWOBHM) groups often introduced keyboards. Power metal was originally an American term to describe a new breed of more aggressive band inspired by Judas Priest, punk rock and NWOBHM. It was the trend amongst this image to be macho and screams were all the rage. The first thrash bands such as Metallica also followed in this scene. As groups such as Metallica down toned thier sound and refined that Hardcore punk inspired chugging sound that became known worldwide as being the all new "thrash metal" sound, power metal leveled into being groups like Judas Priest (from their "Ram it down" album), Manowar, Armored Saint, Vicious Rumors etc. Pantera confirm this on naming their "power metal" album who made a strong jumped from being glam to being power metal. Pantera also list Judas Priest as being one of their strongest influences. I personally think the Motorhead & Venom influence on the early thrash metal bands helped steer thrash into being a gruffer sound. Thrash is also much more hardcore punk inspired with that more rhythm based chugging sound where as both power metal and speed metal have a cleaner sound with an higher emphasis on lead. Melodic metal was basically "melodic" metal and many European speed metal later crossed their sound for a melodic sounding speed metal. find one source from back then that refers to groups such as Helloween ever being power metal and you will find that every where they were speed metal. You've only got to listen to speed metal messiah to hear the same recognition.

Melodic metal is the same as progressive metal, neo-classical metal, symphonic metal as in it is a variant on rock genres of the same title. It also sits amongst them as having a similar sound. google or youtube melodic rock and you will see what I as right. Sonata Arctica when they first appeared always called themselves speed metal. They also must have been raised understanding and recognizing what was always the way. Sonata Arctica like Helloween both give reference to having a melodic sound on their official websites. (melodic metal / melodic speed metal). Find one reference of power metal ever being groups like Helloween from the time (80s & 90s) and you'l only find reference to power metal with groups like Pantera, Judas Priest & Manowar etc. I blame sites like Metal Archives where one man writes his definition and thousands on young naive fans repeat it spreading Chinese rumors. It is the actual evidence and opinions from at the time what matters. Research correctly and you will see I am right. Power metal was about "Power!" and speed metal was about "speed!". How hard can it be? Metalosaurus (talk) 12:31, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I have just looked on Dragonforces official website and they also give reference to "melodic metal". So now thats Helloween, Sonata Arctica & Dragonforce Metalosaurus (talk) 12:31, 1 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Personally, I tend to agree; the melodic European kind of metal is best described as melodic speed metal. (Which term, by the way, has the additional advantage to be very clear: Everyone understands that "melodic speed metal" is a form of metal that is melodic and fast, compared to traditional heavy metal at least, and that bands like Helloween, Stratovarius, Sonata Arctica and Dragonforce are meant.) There is a lot of crossover with neo-classical, progressive and symphonic metal. It also makes more sense to me to confine the term "power metal" to the American variant, as it was historically used. Using the term "power metal" for the aforementioned bands is a phenomenon that seems to have started about ten years ago, when a lot of speedy, melodic bands popped up all over Europe and the genre became very popular. It's not the original use of the term as in the nineties, just as "gothic metal" referred to doomy-sounding bands like Theatre of Tragedy and Tristania, while it is now applied to any reasonably melodic band with a female lead singer (notice that gothic metal bands in the original sense were not usually female fronted, while nowadays the female singer is usually the frontwoman, so that the term "female-fronted metal" has been coined), even when their overall musical style and mood is totally different from doom/gothic metal (and gothic rock for that matter) and actually in line with pure melodic speed metal. I blame musically ignorant journalists for the abuse of those terms. Same with "melodic death metal" and others, such as "black metal" or "hard rock". Also, Metallica in their early days are often argued not to have played thrash, but speed metal, or even power metal. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 17:59, 10 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Bottom-line being : if it's not referenced by a valid source, it's just all points of view and original research. Everyone has his opinion on sub-genre classification but the last word belong to music writers and historians. zubrowka 74 17:04, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Sure, but what kind of sources are out there (and what data are they based on) on such an obscure and esoteric topic? Nobody except the nerdier metal fans who are bored enough to ponder and argue about this stuff really cares for subgenre distinctions. But there is hard data out there: For example, how was Angra's music, which embodies fast, melodic "Europower" metal, first described by contemporary music writers when it popped up in the early nineties? Or that of Stratovarius in the mid-nineties? Obvious points of comparison were Helloween, Gamma Ray, Rage, Iron Maiden and Yngwie, I think, and I doubt any of them was known as playing "power metal" at the time. It can't be this hard to find that out, and it would at least be able to confirm or refute the above assertion that the original use of the term was quite different, and the only reason why nobody can come to a consensus anymore what speed metal might refer to is that the stuff has mostly been lumped under the "power metal" descriptor since then. Although I've seen seasoned metal fans recount that in the eighties and early nineties, there were basically just two descriptors, "heavy metal" for the mid-tempo (and slow?) stuff and "speed metal" for the faster and more extreme music that also tended to be more deeply underground. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:09, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Musical Origins
Speed Metal actually has its origins as far back as the early 1970's. I would recommend that we change the articles "Cultural Origins" to say "1970's". Here is proof that speed metal was alive and well throughout all of the 70's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Nmjwc4r_pQ — Preceding unsigned comment added by KevinGrem (talk • contribs) 17:47, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Deep Purple invented speed metal.
I have multiple sources that link Deep Purple's song "Highway Star" to the beginning of speed metal. Unfortunately whenever I edit the speed metal page(or any of the other pages I have edited for that matter) they are taken off and my hard work is gone. May I please use these links again and may they please not be removed. I have no connection to any of these sites I have previously used and I am not using them for advertising or promotion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rockgenre (talk • contribs) 16:03, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
 * References have to pass WP:RS and be acceptable as a relibale source for content. Your personal opinion may be that Deep Purple "invented" speed metal... but sources have to support that. Other sources equal to your supposed sources claim Led Zeppelin "invented" it with Communication Breakdown. Other sources claim that the MC5 invented in with Kick out the Jams... others claim that the Amboy Dukes invented it. The result of all this is that... guess what?... no one invented it. Stick to the facts... not the fancruft. The Real Libs-speak politely 16:58, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to have to agree that DP invented speed metal. There are multiple credible sources that say that Highway Star was the first speed metal song. Here's a link to one of them: https://books.google.com/books?id=kXyFAwAAQBAJ&pg=PT1436&lpg=PT1436&dq=Highway+star+first+speed+metal+song&source=bl&ots=QVrdpyLfic&sig=_8Fh3AlUFj2tQ-q-1MoGfppdV90&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjw1aSUgqfQAhUS24MKHWFaAP84ChDoAQgaMAA#v=onepage&q=Highway%20star%20first%20speed%20metal%20song&f=false And another: http://societyofrock.com/deep-purple-highway-star-one-of-blackmores-best-solos/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by KevinGrem (talk • contribs) 00:52, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Blast beats
Hi to all,

I just read this article and the bold part below almost made me choke :-)

Thrash metal is the North American version of the European speed metal, with more hardcore punk style drumming and tempos, for example the blastbeat, which is popular in Hardcore punk but was nameless as a drum technique, until the Grindcore genre.

I was just wondering how blast beats came in connection with hardcore? Quite a hardcore and metal fan but I almost never heard any blast beat in "typical" hardcore acts (with "typical" I mean old-school hardcore).

Greets --Sébastien 18:10, 08 May 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.178.191.67 (talk)

Blastbeats are usually connected to hardcore rock since it is what makes hardcore rock what it is. Hardcore rock is generally fast paced music that NEEDS the blastbeat to stay on target. I am a drummer who plays lots of blast beats so I know what I am talking about. Voidninja88 (talk) 07:01, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

My humble opinion
I'm an old hardcore-speed metal-fan and I can actually say that you guys are all fucked up =_=' you need a site to say to you what is speed and what is not and reading the article is obvious that you haven't understood anything. well guys, first of all LISTEN to the music, don't read it! Listen to 500/700 albums that may be called speed and find yourself what speed really is. Start with Exciter, then to the BELGIAN scene, then to the american, then to the scandinavian... and fuck up all those german shitty things, it (mostly) isn't speed! But the main thing is to JUDGE WITH YOUR EARS! listen to the born of speed, then go ahead to our days. This should be done with all heavy metal in fact, 'cause I'm reading something really ridicolous like "glam metal" and bullshits like this... Open your ears and close your eyes, guys. With love, an old, offended speedmetalbanger. (hope this will change something...)

--Response

Did and discovered a few GLAM METAL bands had one or two speed metal songs, mainly RATT and Motley Crue, and a couple had many, Twisted Sister and W.A.S.P. Skid Row alos took the speed metal path in the 1990's.  Not starting an arguement, just stating I opened up my ears and judged and found a fast glam bands or glam bands with a couple of speed metal songs.

--Response 2 This an encyclopedia, which has as purpose to make articles about various subjects, such as music. People who want to find out things, either because they don't have time to research or the resources to do so, read these articles. So I vote we ignored what's written above and continue to write about speed metal.

Lists of untrashy speed metal bands:

- Metallica - DragonForce - Slipknot (joey jordison for life!!!) - and finally Judas's priest Voidninja88 (talk) 07:07, 21 May 2017 (UTC)