Talk:Spider-Man (2002 film)

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Plot section
Hello. I think we should need to discuss a potential rewrite of the article's plot section. At the moment, the current word count is 580 words, but the past few edits increased the word count to at least 629 words. I also have some concerns we should address: for example in the scene regarding Ben's death, the important part is that he is carjacked and killed by the thief that Peter allowed to escape; how Peter lets said thief escape, not so much. There's also How to streamline a plot summary, which is an essay on how we should remove unnecessary words in plot summaries such as this one. If there are any other thoughts or suggestions on how we should revise the plot summary, please post your thoughts here. Thanks, Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:08, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I did a pretty thorough streamlining and trimming of the section recently. @Shamus248 felt that my editing reduced the quality of the section, and reverted the majority of my edits. The section now—after some editing by @Sjones23—is fairly similar to my version, and I'm happy to keep it as is, though I may make some very small tweaks.
 * I think the only question is whether @Shamus248 feels strongly that the section needs to go back to their version. If so, they need to provide an explanation. When reverting my edits, their edit summary was, "this was fine as it was before y'all took a hatchet to it". When I asked for clarification, they said, "I don't have any *issues* with your edits or anyone else's edits. I just thought the plot summary was solid as it was."
 * @Shamus248, I'm not judging you or your editing. I just want to get @Sjones23 updated on what's been happening with the section and the communication we've had. Wafflewombat (talk) 08:00, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * To be clear, go ahead and undo any of my edits you wish. I won't kick up a fuss. I will, however, offer some input.
 * Some footnotes I think are important to remain in the summary RE: Ben's death: i think it's important to mention that Peter is cheated out of his $$, the event promoter is robbed, Peter lets the thief escape in retaliation, then that same thief kills Ben. We certainly don't need to bloat up the summary with how this effects Peter, just that it's an important chain of events, so I think those 4 pieces are all necessary to retain. Shamus248 (talk) 16:47, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * a small tweak i'd suggest is "Peter is cheated out of his earnings" as opposed to "cheated out of his cash reward" but that's just me nitpicking lol Shamus248 (talk) 16:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * As a side note, I've already asked the Film WikiProject for their input on the matter here. Also, both "tries to secure" and "tries securing" might be correct, but I could be wrong. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * How about "bids for"? Otherwise I'd go with "tries to secure", it’s 564 words long, an extra word isn't going to kill it. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 18:55, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The "bids for" part might work. I've implemented it. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 18:59, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I feel the new version is awkward. Here it is:
 * Meanwhile, Harry's father and Oscorp founder, Norman Osborn, bids for an important military contract.
 * With all due respect, I'm still in the dark about the problems with the version I've suggested. Any clarification would be greatly appreciated:
 * Meanwhile, Harry's father, Norman Osborn, tries to secure an important military contract for Oscorp, the company he founded.
 * Yes, there are a lot of commas, but we haven't been able to avoid that with any of our versions!
 * I don't know if y'all pay attention to false titles, but "Oscorp founder" is not a title (like Doctor, President, etc) and I would suggest we avoid using it as one. Wafflewombat (talk) 00:08, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

The plot section looks pretty good, nice work. Frankly I'm impressed that the discussion is not arguing about bloating to over a thousand words like I usually see and is actually a sensible discussion about how to include a few extra small details while keeping it tight and concise. Keep calm and WP:STREAMLINE on.

That lead section though is a bit much, does it really need to be so long? WP:LEAD is supposed to summarize key points! I see the lead section is about twice as long as when it was first GA reviewed, but only marginally bigger than when it was reevaluated for GA status. Maybe not all that production and development really needs to be in the lead section. I did revert one recent bit of lead section bloat (from an anon editor who seems to be a huge Blade fan and spammed similar edits all over the place). I would suggest that mentioning Spider-Verse is fine, but explaining the premise of an entirely different film in lead section of this article is not essential. I'll just leave a general suggestion that perhaps after you've got the plot sorted you might also reconsider the lead section and refocus it on the most important points. Cheers. -- 109.77.200.184 (talk) 23:29, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the input. You read my mind! I was going to tackle the lengthy lead after the plot discussion is done. Wafflewombat (talk) 23:49, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

If it's any use I wrote this for my FAC sandbox on this film, though I have too many other projects on the go to do any more with it in the short term. This is 100 words longer than current, could maybe be whittled down a few, but I think what it adds is a greater level of characterisation, motivation, and progression to enable the uninitiated to fully understand without having seen the film and does this by removing unnecessary stuff like "where he is confronted by Harry, who grabs a gun. Before Harry can fire," where the gun part adds nothing.
 * Darkwarriorblake (talk) 23:05, 8 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks for sharing this. What is an FAC sandbox? Wafflewombat (talk) 01:27, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Top right of the page if you're on a browser, has your links and one is Sandbox. It's not FAC specific it's just where I do my FAC workDarkwarriorblake (talk) 08:41, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I asked for help at the Teahouse with the thief sentence. The feedback I got was that this is the best version:

"Soon after, Peter's Uncle Ben is killed by a man who robbed the wrestling event, and whom Peter allowed to escape."

, would you support this version? Wafflewombat (talk) 23:58, 9 July 2024 (UTC)


 * I've incorporated most of the suggested version in the sentence regarding the thief, which now reads: "Soon after, Peter's uncle Ben is killed by a man who robbed the wrestling event, and whom Peter let escape." If there are any other suggestions, please let me know. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:19, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Looks good! Thank you. Wafflewombat (talk) 05:20, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I posted about the following sentence at the Teahouse:
 * Meanwhile, Harry's father and Oscorp founder, Norman Osborn, bids for an important military contract.
 * Only one editor replied, and suggested this version:
 * Meanwhile, Harry's father Norman tries to secure an important military contract for Oscorp, the company he founded. Wafflewombat (talk) 20:52, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Section break
Regarding the sentence for Norman Osborn, how about something like this?

"Meanwhile, Harry's father Norman tests a performance-enhancing chemical on himself in an attempt to secure a military contract for his corporation, Oscorp. The chemical, however, causes him to go insane."

Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 21:14, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Poster
I'm wondering whether it makes sense to keep on the page. It is mentioned in the text, but the twin towers are so small that you (or at least I) have to zoom in to see them. Click here to jump straight to the image in context. Wafflewombat (talk) 02:49, 16 July 2024 (UTC)