Talk:Spion Kop (stadiums)

The First Kop
What's the evidence for this claim? Ste B 03:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

The Biggest End
the article asserts that the holte end was bigger than the south bank at molyneux. Ive stood on both and the south bank was surely significantly larger - it went back 280 steps (i counted) across most of its width and was much wider than the pitch. the holte end went back 200 steps ( as far as i remember, i also counted it) and though wider than the pitch was not as wide as the south bank, nor did it have a corner section whereas the south bank did. I am prepared to be corrected that i misremember the depth of the holte end, but i'm sure of the depth of the south bank.

unless someone can correct me i wil edit this article to state that the south bank was the biggest end in the land.

I asset that the south bank coult hold nearly 50,000 in the days before the regulators - the rest of the ground really was a titchy little dump.

oh yeah and i'm a west brom fan, so i have no remit for either wolves or villa - but i was quite a bit spoddy about the sizes of the various terraces of england. i stood on most of them and usually counted the steps. a mention of the kippax might also be in order —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.140.68 (talk • contribs) 19:37, 26 August 2006

'official name'
I have to take issue with the implication that it was a 'liverpool regiment' that suffered heavy losses at the battle of Spion Kop in the Boer War. Closest to this description is likiely to be The South Lancashitrs; however there were many other regiments from all over the UK and the Empire involved, several of whom suffered significant losses - http://www.britishbattles.com/great-boer-war/spion-kop.htm. The fallout from this battle seriously impacted on the public in the UK, it is almost certain that several Football Clubs, large and small and in a 'patriotic spirit' memorialized the encounter my so naming any mound like enclosure (remember many would not be 'stands' as we know them now, but more like 'The Hill' and 'The Mound' at Sydney and Adelade Cricket Grounds, i.e. Grass covered inclines).

can I also take issue with the assertion that the Anfield Kop is the only 'Official'y named stand.

I can only speak for Bramall Lane in Sheffield but it currently has the 'official' name 'Hallam FM Kop Stand' - http://www.sufc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Prices/0,,10418,00.html

And, to my knowledge, has been officially the Shoreham Kop, since I started going to Bramall Lane in 1969, and unofficially, i.e. amongst supporters both 't'Shoreham' t'Kop' and 'Spion Kop'.

I'm pretty sure other grounds have stands with an 'official' Kop name.

SubtleBlade 23:28, 3 December 2006 (UTC) SubtleBlade


 * The banks and terracing at Woolwich Arsenal's Manor Ground were never officially given names. According to noted author Simon Inglis (Football Grounds of Britain, The Football Grounds of England and Wales, Engineering Archie - Archibald Leitch, Football Ground Designer), the earliest reference comes in the year 1904 when a local newspaper likened the refurbished Manor Ground terrace to that of Spion Kop. This reference predates the printed work of Birmingham journalist Ernest Edwards, who in 1906 nicknamed the refurbished Anfield terrace Spion Kop. And so it seems the earliest reference to a football terrace as Spion Kop can indeed be attributed to Woolwich Arsenal, where it was likened. However it should also be noted that this name was never formally adopted, unlike at Anfield, where later it was. smb 14:10, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

spion kop
This is also the name of a one street hamlet on the outskirts of Mansfield. Having spent many matches in the Kop at Hillsborough in the days when Wednesday were a force to be reckoned with I always feel a surge of nostalgia when driving through there.

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Riverside
The Riverside stadiums kop end is known as the new holgate end (the original holgate end being the kop end at ayresome park) suggest this is added rather than naming the name of a block number. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.104.177.68 (talk) 20:43, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

The North Stand at the Riverside is not oficially named 'the new holgate' it is only refered to this by a few fans and isnt a widely used term. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.0.66.85 (talk) 11:34, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Highbury
Highbury isn't standing anymore is it? So the kop at that stadium isn't there. I don't know whether there are other stadia listed which are no longer standing, but if they are in the list shouldn't they either be removed or a note made that this is the case. --81.158.106.197 (talk) 15:20, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I think only 'stands' that are actually named Spion and/or Kop should be listed. Dynablaster (talk) 21:32, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

If you understand the history of english football and the importance of the kops then you would appreciate how signficant there are and how historical these are. Maybe a distinction could be made in relation to those still standing and those not, but simply to say only to list those still standing is a slight on the significance of these stadia icons. I live on the other side of the world and I certainly appreciate their historically importance. SteveD 17th December 2009. 7:56 a.m. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.104.0.218 (talk) 20:57, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Peacock words
Less of the "loyal" and "famous". Keep it neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.40.164.243 (talk) 14:44, 29 September 2009 (UTC) Please a little sense and sensibility. You don't need to be a Liverpool supporter to know how famous the Liverpool Kop is. There is nothing non-neutral about this. Maybe you should know your sport a little better. SteveD 17th December 2009. 7:53 am. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.104.0.218 (talk) 20:53, 16 December 2009 (UTC)


 * With regards to the Kop at Anfield, is certainly famous, and quite easily the most famous of Kop stands in the world. The word is used regularly via a multitude of sources in conjunction with Liverpool FC. This is not really the case for any other kop stands. You need only put "kop" until Google to see this. In fact I was rather suprised to see only passing reference to the stand at Anfield on this page such is its noteriety. Perhaps the disputed section should be expanded to a more encyclopedic entry for the kop at Anfield. --Footix2 (talk) 21:50, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Kop vs. Popular End
It seems to me that in the list of 'kops' that there are a series of stands/terraces that have never been known as a kop. Rather, I suspect that these are, instead, 'popular ends', i.e. the end which is/was most popular with the home supporters, particularly as the common layout of football grounds used to have home fans behind one goal and away behind the other. A distinction should be drawn between the two, and if there is no verification that a particular stand/end has ever been referred to as a kop then it should be removed. Dancarney (talk) 15:59, 6 April 2010 (UTC)


 * I entirely agree. If a reference is not forthcoming, it should not be on the list. Wikispan (talk) 19:55, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm making a start on getting references in there, then I'm going to start removing stuff. Dancarney (talk) 12:08, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

BBC Sport: Spion Kop report
The incredible story behind the Kop 81.155.231.191 (talk) 12:11, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Woolwich Arsenal
The often-repeated assertion that Woolwich Arsenal supporters nicknamed a terrace "Spion Kop" remains unsupported by evidence. The claim was first made by Phil Soar in The History of Arsenal Football Club. But his source—a press cutting dated 1904—only mentions Spion Kop fleetingly. The author, in a single sentence, merely notes the similarity between spectators' heads popping over the top of the embankment to warring factions atop the hill of the same name. To Phil Soar, this was as good as saying Arsenal had a terrace named Spion Kop, even though the evidence clearly does not stretch that far.

The part about Liverpool fans nicknaming their own terrace is conjecture (though entirely sensible) based on a 1906 report by Birmingham journalist Ernest Edwards in which he wrote "This huge wall of earth has been termed 'Spion Kop', and no doubt this apt name will always be used in future in referring to this spot." It is reasonable to assume the name was adopted by fans in the way indicated by Edwards. But some accounts (including Mark Lawrenson's) conflate these two separate pieces of evidence and apply Ernest Edwards' report to Woolwich Arsenal, without justification. Wikispan (talk) 12:55, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Liverpool Kop
While it may have originally been called the Spion Kop, am pretty sure at least from its 1994 rebuild its just been called/referred to as the Kop; shouldnt the article note this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.0.3 (talk) 10:36, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

I came here because reading the possibility of Liverpool appointing Jürgen Klopp as manager, I started to wonder why The Kop is so called (I'm not a Liverpool fan)

I got what I came for but I have to note that this entire article is bonkers! With its emphasis on the origin of the term, and its effort to demonstrate how many stands exist that are officially or unoficially called "kop" in some way - it totally fails to impart to the reader the that the most common use of the term refers to Liverpool's home supporters and/or their most famous stand. The fact that "The Kop" is used, and has been used for decades, by all forms of media to implicitly refer to Liverpool really needs a mention. 194.166.122.239 (talk) 21:30, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Image
The Blackpool image is a copyright violation. I added the Liverpool one since it receives plenty of text in the article.Cptnono (talk) 16:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * How so? It seems to be made available under fair-use. Wikispan (talk) 17:57, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * There is no FUR for this article. FURs need to be done for each article the image is used in. A FUR would not be valid for this article since this it is replaceable with a free image. Cptnono (talk) 18:00, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for explaining. Wikispan (talk) 23:10, 22 November 2010 (UTC)
 * No problem. I thought the image was pretty cool myself. Here is some more detailed info: Non-free use rationale guideline and Non-free content.Cptnono (talk) 00:24, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Tottenham Hotspur new stadium
I have several times tried to make an edit to refer to the fact that Tottenham Hotspur's new stadium will have a kop-style stand (the South Stand) with 17,000 capacity (the largest in the UK when finished). Each time it has been reverted by Ilikeeatingwaffles for reasons which I don't find convincing.

Here are some sources and I leave it to others to decide:


 * http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11675/10002894/tottenham-reveal-400m-plans-to-modernise-white-hart-lane Sky Sports - "the largest single 'kop' stand in the country, which will be known as the home end and hold 17,000 capacity in total."   — Preceding unsigned comment added by MrStoofer (talk • contribs) 11:07, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
 * http://metro.co.uk/2009/10/26/tottenham-hotspur-reveal-%C2%ADfinal-plans-for-new-56250-seater-stadium-will-%C2%ADinclude-a-%C2%91kop-style%C2%92-%C2%ADsingle-tiered-stand-501315/ - Metro newspaper referring to it as "Tottenham’s ‘Kop’"
 * http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/arsenal/11728286/Eight-reasons-Tottenhams-new-stadium-will-make-them-bigger-and-better-than-Arsenal.html - The Daily Telegraph - "Spurs plan to construct a 17,000-seater single-tier stand which will be the biggest in the UK (yes, even bigger than the Kop)"
 * http://www.thetottenhamindependent.co.uk/news/11183562.display/ - local newspaper calling it "kop style"
 * http://www.tottenhamblog.com/2015/07/08/kop-a-look-at-beautiful-designs-for-new-tottenham-stadium/ - blog referring to the stand as "the kop"

... and plenty more along the same lines if you do a Google search.

Several of these refer to it as being the largest in the UK, including the Office THFC website "the largest single tier in the UK, the home southern stand seating 17,000."

MrStoofer (talk) 11:04, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source to say that the stand will be called The Kop? All the stands listed in the article all called The Kop (or similar). This stand appears to be a massive single-tier stand, but not called a Kop - cf. the Südtribune at Westfalenstadion. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 11:45, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

So this is an article about stands named "Kop" and not an article about a style of stand? And so you cannot include a stand that is of the requisite style and is referred to as a "Kop" in reputable sources if it is not officially named that by the club? MrStoofer (talk) 12:03, 12 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The first sentence states that Kop is a "colloquial" term for a type of stand. If the policy for this page is as as per Ilikeeatingwaffles then that needs changing, because Tottenham's new stand is colloquially known by that name (full disclosure: I did edit that sentence but not that bit.) MrStoofer (talk) 12:07, 12 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Plus of course the History section does not follow the "official names only" policy.MrStoofer (talk) 12:09, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Not all stands named "Kop" are large, single-tiered and behind the goal - see the Spion Kop at Filbert Street, the Popside Kop at the Baseball Ground or the Kop at St Andrew's (stadium). Some stands that are in the Kop "style"(?) are not known by that name - the Park End at Goodison Park, the North Stand at Maine Road, Gallowgate End at St James' Park. You're right that the inclusion of the stands at Villa Park and Molineux confuses matters further! So, maybe the whole article needs a rethink? How should the criteria be defined? Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 09:19, 13 September 2016 (UTC)


 * It is clear from (1) this article itself (see especially the History section) and (2) the references that I cited above, that there is a widespread understanding that a single-tiered end may be referred to as both "a kop" and as "kop-style". If there is to be an article on this subject (which is open to debate) then it has to reflect that. Since the article does already reflect that, I cannot see how adding the reference to THFC's new Kop would go against the article as it stands. If you want to exclude it, then the whole article needs to be re-written with a clear explanation of what is a "kop". MrStoofer (talk) 10:30, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure that it is clear that a single-tiered end can be defined as a "kop", seeing as two-tiered stands are also included by name or in the history section. The most useful thing would be a WP:RS that gives a definition. Maybe a broader consensus is required, with help from WP:FOOTY, for example? Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 13:52, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
 * We've got a bit off topic. The issue was why was THFC's proposed stand excluded from mention, I believe that I have refuted your reason (it is not "officially" called a kop) because the article is not limited to stands "officially" called a kop. So can it be mentioned now?MrStoofer (talk) 15:21, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

We've got a bit off topic. The issue was why was THFC's proposed stand excluded from mention, I believe that I have refuted your reason (it is not "officially" called a kop) because the article is not limited to stands
 * Though the list does seem to be. I dunno. Feel like it's opening a can of worms, TBH. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 10:46, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

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Spinnekop at Graafschap football club
The table of Kops mentions the Spinnekop stand at the Dutch club De Graafschap. It was added in 2007 by an unregistered user (their sole contribution to en.wp). A cited reference does verify the existence of the Spinnekop stand at the club, but not any connection with the Spion Kop or any other Kop stand. Spinnekop is Dutch for "spider's head" and Afrikaans for "spider"; I don't think it has anything to do with "spy's lookout hill", which is the original Dutch and Afrikaans sense of spion kop. I propose to remove the Spinnekop from the table unless anyone knows why it should be kept there. Frans Fowler (talk) 15:20, 6 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Done -- Frans Fowler (talk) 11:20, 2 March 2023 (UTC)