Talk:Spira (Final Fantasy)/Archive 1

Images
It looks VERY tacky when the separators touch the images. Also, the larger image sizes, combined with a needless thumb border, make the whole page very overwhelming. I'd like to keep it as clean cut as possible. I'd rather not start anything, so perhaps we can come to an agreement here. The larger image sizes don't bug me at all, but the separators intersecting the images really freaks me out.PiccoloNamek 14:24, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * How is the reader supposed to know what's what without captions? Anyway, the pictures are just too nice and detailed to be at a tiny 150px, and the image size I used is standard. I moved the spoiler note to the top to avoid the intersection, though. Everyking 14:43, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Neat. Like I said, the larger images, don't particularly bother me. Sure, I liked mine more, but it's no biggie. Those lines were frying my brain though. By the way, is the image of Zanarkand doing This for you?PiccoloNamek 14:53, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * No, it sure doesn't, none of the format skins do that on my computer. Maybe something to do with the browser. Everyking 15:13, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * I use mozilla, what do you use?PiccoloNamek 15:14, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)


 * Internet Explorer. Everyking 15:15, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)


 * Then I'll have to keep editing and previewing it in both browsers until I can fix that without visibly changing the formatting.PiccoloNamek 15:16, Oct 17, 2004 (UTC)

Picture Licence tags
I note from the picture pages, that the system doesn't like the fairuse tag put on the pictures used in this article - could PiccoloNamek find a tighter tag as requested on the picture pages? Brookie: A collector of little round things 08:11, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The best we can do would be Fairuse - In Spira. You're welcome to help change them, if you'd like.PiccoloNamek 10:11, 1 November 2005 (UTC)


 * Could we maybe get a source/sources on some of those images then? -- Rmrfstar 22:05, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

Zanarkand/Bevelle articles
I have been wondering lately, this article, the Zanarkand Article, and the Bevelle article, all have basically the same information. (That is, the story of Yevon and the creation of Sin) and not a whole like to differentiate themselves from one another. The games just don't give you enough specific information on each city to warrant separate articles on them. I think we should redirect them here, and move any worthy content into this article. What say you?
 * I think that's a good idea. Probably everything that needs to be said about Spira and its various places can be said in this one article. Everyking 16:39, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Second map of Spira
Don't re-add it. It ruins the formatting of the Zanarkand and Bevelle pictures. It's very pretty, and I've seriously considered adding it before by itself, but the fact that we already have one with English labels makes it kind of redundant. One or the other is fine, but not both. The reason I chose the plain one is because the pretty one is written in Yevon-script. The primary reason I reverted, however, is because the second picture pushed the picture of Bevelle out of the "The Beginning" section. This is unacceptable. The whole point is that Bevelle and Zanarkand are the beginning, they should remain together in the same section. Perhaps we could reach some kind of compromise, but I really don't think we need another map, especially one we can't read. ;)

Also, why did you remove all of the locations below Djose? I will assume that this was some kind of mistake.PiccoloNamek 01:47, Jan 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, it was a mistake. I have no idea why it deleted the locations beneath Djose. I don't recall them missing from the edit preview. Weird, huh? -JarlaxleArtemis 23:58, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Instead, I'll put the picture here. It looks pretty neat, doesn't it? -JarlaxleArtemis 00:05, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)




 * It's significantly more attractive than the map we have now, and I love the Yunalesca-Zaon motif, it's just that nobody can read it. If I knew only dedicated FFX fans were reading this, I would have picked that one to begin with. :( I also want to apologize if I sounded mean in the above post. I'm not mean, I just have no tact. ;) PiccoloNamek 01:04, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

Minor loading error
Every time I open the Spira article page for the first time since last using the Internet, the line "See also: List of Final Fantasy locations" is cut off. Is this happening to everyone, or is it just me? -JarlaxleArtemis 00:16, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It looks fine to me.PiccoloNamek 00:48, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)

Pictures
I was browsing through one of my old backup DVDs and I found a bunch of other Final Fantasy X pictures that were painted in the same style as the Bevelle and Zanarkand pictures. Here is a sample: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/PiccoloNamek/dthunderplains.jpg

I was wondering, should we add these pictures to the article? They're all very pretty, but I wonder if it would look too cluttered? It'd be nice if we could fit each picture in beside its entry. PiccoloNamek 08:02, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)


 * I definitely think the pictures should be added next to their entries (as thumbnails of course). The painting of the Thunderplains is amazing.&rarr; Jarlaxle Artemis   02:05, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * OK. Is This fine?

PiccoloNamek 05:48, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's fine.&rarr; Jarlaxle Artemis   00:52, 16 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I wonder what Everyking thinks. I'd like to get everybody's opinion.PiccoloNamek 01:05, Mar 16, 2005 (UTC)


 * If the captions can't be lined up properly, we shouldn't have the pictures in there at all. Having the pictures small and out of line looks bad. They're all very pretty, and besides, I used the same size we did for the Zanarkand and Bevelle pictures. They look garbled and ugly, even on my 19 inch monitor.PiccoloNamek 05:06, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't think it looks that bad. Besides, if people want to see the pictures in their entire beauty, they can just click on the links. &rarr;  Jarlaxle Artemis   05:15, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)


 * Everyking and I had this same argument, and in the end we decided that big pictures were better. There's also the fact that the small pictures are out of line with the entries.PiccoloNamek 05:19, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

"Anyway, the pictures are just too nice and detailed to be at a tiny 150px, and the image size I used is standard."

Huh
I noticed a bunch of changes, some of them were awkward, others were outright incorrect:

1. I think "The Beginning" sounds much more whimsical than "The Great Machina War" It gives a sense of being sent back to the start of a great story. Almost as if you're listening to someone reminisce.
 * See comment #4

2. The picture does NOT show Zanarkand during its destruction. It looks just peachy to me.


 * You're right. I mistaken the fog under the water arch for Sin. --LBMixPro(Holla back!) 09:57, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

3. There is no "Mushroom Rock" on the map. just "Mushroom Rock Road". This applies in-game as well.

4. When writing this article, I tried to cultivate a certain sense of style that would make it enjoyable for people to read. When I wrote things like "Many a traveller met their end here" instead of "Many travellers had died here", and "Home to only dust and fiends" instead of "monkeys and fiends", I am trying to enhance this effect. Doesn't "Home to only dust and fiends" just sound so much more desolate and hopeless? Doesn't "many a traveller met their end here" sound so much more eloquent?


 * Since Wikipedia is after all an encyclopedia, I tend to look at articles in a technical manner than one of a story. Although I really don't have a big problem with it, if this article were to be considered a featured article, I'd think the sysops would probably say the same. Maybe it says something at Style and How-to Directory about it.--LBMixPro(Holla back!) 09:57, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Now, I'm a reasonable man, and I have no problem with people adding important information to the article. I try my best not to own articles I've started, but I won't hesitate to fix or revert edits which I feel destroy this article's unique style. PiccoloNamek 09:09, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
 * That's what a Wiki is all about. Anybody can mercilessly edit what you write. Hey, it even says it at the bottom of the edit page. --LBMixPro(Holla back!) 09:57, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)


 * I have read all of the articles relating to proper Wikipedia article writing. One of the primary guide rules is "Consider your audience".

'''A corollary: When you do write articles, consider the audience in your writing. An article entitled "Use of chromatic scales in early Baroque music" is likely to be read by musicians, and so technical details and jargon are entirely appropriate. But an article entitled "Rap music" is likely to be read by laymen who want a brief and plainly written overview, with links to more detailed information if available.'''

Likewise, people who play Final Fantasy games do so mostly because they want to be immersed in the beautiful stories, and I believe they would appericiate an accurate, if slightly embellished style of writing. I know this article wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable to read if it read like stereo instructions. I wouldn't ever use this type of writing in, say, something like Castle Bravo, but here, I believe it works.

PiccoloNamek 10:07, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
 * I was thinking more of more of this article, but I agree. --LBMixPro(Holla back!) 13:29, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)

Coordinates and Links
Should we add the exact X-Y-Z axes coordinates that are found on Cid's airship, or is that a little excessive? Also, should there be "See main article" links for the locations with their own articles? ~ Hibana


 * At Wikipedia, nothing is excessive.   ‡   Jarlaxle   19:36, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be a little much. There's no need to include the coordinates, they're already inclued in-game, and would serve no purpose here.PiccoloNamek 20:04, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

Edits
24.74.74.221, whoever you are, you shouldn't make such massive, sweeping edits to an already well-established article without consulting the people who worked on it. If the information you want to include is indeed canon, perhaps we could find a better way to integrate it into the existing article. There has been a certain writing style using in this article, and I would like to maintain it. What I think we should do is discuss exactly what you want to change and what information you want to include, and then let me insert it all into the article. It would be best for everyone this way, because the article would be more acurate, while still maintaining its distinct style.

I'm already going over the information you added before, so I can find a less disruptive way to include it. Some of the information you entered is downright incorrect, however. I've played all the way through FFX 4 times, and nothing was EVER mentioned about Sin being created to protect the Fayth. I don't care what an external player's guide says, I'd like to keep the content of this article limited to what happened and can be proven in-game.

PiccoloNamek 06:27, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

Inbound Links
I've discussed this with CUAL and posted the following on the Final Fantasy project page, but out of courtesy I'm posting it here too:
 * The inbound links to |Spira (redirect page) (see list of links here) should be re-pointed to Spira (Final Fantasy)... I'm responsible for the article move and I can do some of 'em, but not being a FF expert I might create or not see mistakes in the process.Spir 09:16, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

New Pictures layout
I think I'm onto something here. If we could just get rid of this problem:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v135/PiccoloNamek/Doh.gif

It would be perfect. Can anyone help with the formatting?PiccoloNamek 06:39, August 10, 2005 (UTC)


 * I don't see the problem. Can you elaborate more? — Cua HL   09:13, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

The text from the entry is sliding up under the picture. It'd be nice if we could get all of the text entries perfectly straight and level.PiccoloNamek 09:16, August 10, 2005 (UTC)


 * That's simply how the images work. As you've staggered the images on the lefts and rights the text winds between them.   works well as a breaker to keep text and images together. However, if you want text uniform, I'd suggest keeping all the images on the left/right and not using a thumbnail frame. Play around —  Cua HL   09:24, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Keeping all of the images on one side would prevent the images from lining up with their entries, though.PiccoloNamek 09:29, August 10, 2005 (UTC)


 * That's where   comes in. See how Final Fantasy bestiary (A-M) works for what I mean. —  Cua HL   09:31, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Trying that, I think it actually looks better sraggered. There's less white space and it seems more colorful and active with images on both sides.PiccoloNamek 09:43, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

WikiProject Final Fantasy Review
Awesome. I just hope they don't come in and mangle the heart of the article. I know it says "If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it." but it still hurts to see massive, sweeping changes to something you've worked so hard on. Improvements are one thing, replacing large sections of the article is another. Oh well, I trust you guys.PiccoloNamek 09:46, August 10, 2005 (UTC)

The Creation of Sin
Hey. I've been trying to edit the page for a while now concerning the creation of Sin, but everytime I do, someone changes it back. The information in there at this time is wrong. Yevon did not use the Fayth on Gagazet to create Sin. He used them to create Dream Zanarkand. This much is even said in-game:

Fayth "Long ago, there was a war."

Tidus "Yeah, with machina, right?"

Fayth "Yes. A war between Zanarkand and Bevelle." "Bevelle's machina assured their victory from the start. Spira had never seen such power." "The summoners of Zanarkand didn't stand a chance." "Zanarkand was doomed to oblivion." "That's why we tried to save it--if only in a memory."

Tidus "What did you do?"

Fayth "The remaining summoners and the townspeople that survived the war..." "They all became fayth--fayth for the summoning."

Tidus "The summoning... You mean Sin?"

Fayth "No. I mean this place." "A Zanarkand that never sleeps."

Sin's not even an Aeon at all. It's a large conglomeration of Pyreflies held together with Gravity Spells. This is outright stated in the Final Fantasy X Ultimania Omega Guide (an official publication by Square-Enix), and heavily implied in-game with such lines as Mika's statement that Yu Yevon crafts the souls of the dead (Pyreflies) into an unholy armour. Sin is no Aeon. The Fayth on Gagazet are for Dream Zanarkand, not Sin. Why does this keep getting changed back everytime I edit it?

By the way, my apologies for not bringing it up in here. Didn't even notice the discussion thing before.

- Squall of SeeD; September 19, 2005


 * It keeps getting changed back because I'm a complete asshole! Actually, I have no problem with the information per se, but rather, the manner in which it is presented. (For example, the reference to the guide should go at the bottom, in "References" not in the main bulk of the article) I've been meaning to go over it for a while now, but I keep getting side tracked with other things.

Also, what is an aeon but a conglomeration of pyreflies on a smaller scale? I suppose you could say that Yu Yevon was the fayth for his own aeon, in a manner of speaking. Anyway, I'm a really good guy, and I'd like to work this out without conflict.PiccoloNamek 05:23, 19 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, it's really my own fault for being too stupid to notice this discussion thing before now, isn't it? XD Anyway, if you'd like to present the information some other way, feel free to reword it. I'm not too comfortable when rewording someone else's stuff, which is probably why it came out sounding like shit.

As for the point about Aeons being small conglomerations of Pyreflies, this is certainly true, but the difference is that the Aeons are formed due to a Summoner manipulating the Pyreflies based on a "blueprint" of sorts that they receive from the Fayth's dreams (their dreams process their thoughts and/or memories). In Sin's case, he's just like a large version of that Mortibody thing that Seymour created in the fight with him in Bevelle. There's no Fayth, just Pyreflies pulled together to form a living creature. With Sin, the creature just happens to have so much Spirit Energy part of its composition that it's insanely powerful.

While one could say that Yevon served as the "Fayth" for Sin, it's not exactly the right terminology due to a Fayth obviously being a spirit that has been placed into a statue along with its body, but I see your point and imagine you get mine as well.

So, yeah, if you want to reword that, jump right into it. I can get you more information if you want it. Sorry if I've been annoying. I just wanted the right information out there as the bulk of this article is a great piece of work and shows a good bit of dedication and the desire to present an accurate portrayal of things from the game.

Now, I need to go finish revising the Ultimecia section of this site to "properly" convey the proof that she isn't Rinoa. Apparently scans from the Ultimania Guide for VIII would be a bit of a no-no. Squall of SeeD

If you could get me a scan of the page(s) or text of the relevant section in the FFX guide, it would be totally awesome, and I would get to work on it right away.PiccoloNamek 07:00, 19 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Yo. I got PMog of GameFAQs (very awesome translator) to translate from his/her copy of the Ultimania Omega Guide. Page 82 has a section entitled "The True Nature of Sin":

"The True Nature Of Sin

Though Sin is generally thought to be a type of fiend, its true status is as something that doubles as both an armour and weapon that Yu Yevon clads himself in, so that he can continue to summon for eternity.

The thing which becomes Sin's core is the Final Aeon that has defeated the last Sin before it (with the exception of the first one). Its large body is formed as a result of Yu Yevon (who resides within) using gravity magic to draw in further pyreflies from the atmosphere, and compressing them together very densely.

Sin has the habit of recovering parts of its own body - "Sinspawn" - that have separated from itself. This is because Sin can repair its body more efficiently by taking in pyreflies that have already been condensed from the start as sinspawn, rather than freshly absorbing pyreflies that drift around in the surrounding areas."

This article also implies why Yu Yevon takes the bodies of Final Aeons as its new host, in that Aeons themselves are a large conglomeration of Pyreflies, and Yu Yevon can more quickly reform a new Sin if using them as a core than if he started all over again.

By the way, was the section intended to be written from the standpoint of what Bevelle taught or all of the facts? I ask because of this part:

"With the knowledge of the existence of Sin, Bevelle began to fear Yu Yevon's wrath. Lady Yunalesca brought them the teachings of Yevon, and in order to appease him, they began to spread his teachings all throughout Spira. Foremost among these teachings is the almost complete ban on machina, imposed in order to avoid another terrible war, such as the one between Bevelle and Zanarkand."

Yunalesca herself didn't actually give the Teachings of Yevon to the people; that's just what Bevelle claims as part of the quasi-religion they maintain. Her defeat of Sin, its rebirth, and the people's own assumptions concerning it are what gave rise to the Teachings, and it was through Summoners and Gaurdians making their journey to Zanarkand that Yunalesca learned of the Teachings' birth, which she wholeheartedly approved of.

It's even suggested within the Guide that she and Yevon may have planned the whole thing through from the start, at least to the effect that he would teach her of the Final Summoning, she would use it, and then remain in Spira to grant others the technique. In this way, Spira as a whole wouldn't completely succumb to despair, and Dream Zanarkand could remain unhindered by the rest of the world.

Another part that I thought should be touched upon is this one:

"The Farplane is partly located in the dimension of Spira and partly located in its own unique dimension. The character Shuyin used an enormous machine called Vegnagun to drill extra-planar tunnels from the Farplane to Spira. These tunnels ended at each of the Chambers of the Fayth, and out of the tunnels poured hundreds of Fiends controlled by Shuyin. These Fiends were put down with the help of the Gullwings, and Shuyin was later defeated."

The Farplane is most certainly completely located within Spira. It's the heart of the Planet and lies entirely within the planetary boundaries. As for the Fiends in X-2 being controlled by Shuyin, that seems a bit presumptuous to me. Fiends naturally are malevolent, anyway, and with Shuyin's despair and hatred of the living affecting other Pyreflies (as in the Den of Woe), that's probably why Fiends were formed and came out attacking the people. Shuyin need not directly control them.

Anyway, again, in case I didn't do so enough before, I want to compliment you on what a great job you've done. It's a really great article.

- Squall


 * Awesome. I already have notepad open. :) One other thing: Does the book ever explain exactly WHY Zanarkand and Bevelle were fighting? Not knowing this has always bugged the crap out of me!PiccoloNamek 19:04, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Also, I was wondering about something. In the game, it is stated that:

" Before long, a Beberu scout party climbed Gagazeto.....and confirmed the destruction of Zanarkand with its own eyes. The city was destroyed, and the citizens were lost without a single survivor. Instead, there was a great crowd of prayer children on Gagazeto...... that sang.  Yes, today, that song is called the prayer song."

Is it explicitly stated in the manual exactly how Zanarkand was destroyed? We know Bevelle didn't do it, and the current explanation is that the formation of Sin somehow destroyed the city. Reading what the player's guide says, would it be safe to assume that the gravity spell might have been the cause?PiccoloNamek 01:49, 20 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Sorry for the long delay in replying. I had a long day at work. Anyway, there's not an explanation offered, no, but the implication overall seems to be that Bevelle was the aggressor and that they were simply trying to conquer more territory.

As for how Zanarkand was destroyed, Sin itself actually did that after Yevon created it. See, Yu Yevon doesn't exactly control Sin. He's more like a passenger within the beast. He doesn't really care so much what Sin does as long as it's fulfilling its function for which he created it:

1) Keeping him safe while he summons Dream Zanarkand. 2) Preventing populations from rising too high in a given area. 3) Preventing technology from advancing very far.

The latter two aspects of Sin's "programming" are to prevent people from ever gaining the technology to one day travel all over Spira and discover Dream Zanarkand, impeding upon the paradise that Yevon wanted to create.

Yevon is really a sad case to be honest. He was simply incapable of accepting the way history unfolds, with civilizations growing and ending, whether they simply died out or were conquered. He just couldn't let go.

Anyway, as said, Sin annihilated the original Zanarkand after it was created (the city was, after all, a large machina metropolis).

I hope that sufficiently covers your questions, and, again, sorry for the delay in replying.

- Squall


 * I wonder. Do you think that Bevelle implemented the ban on machina to assure its own position of power in the new world? (Bevelle is, after all, highly mechanized, even in the time of Final Fantasy X. Not even Luca comes close.)PiccoloNamek 11:32, 20 September 2005 (UTC)


 * It's possible, sure. I hadn't thought of that. The implication, though, really seems to be that they believed that Sin was pissed at Machina because of the Machina War, and that they placed a ban on Machina as part of the reverence they adopted for Yevon in order to quell his wrath (they hoped). Then again, since the Priests themselves used Machina, it may well be that they simply placed the ban on it to prevent Sin from attacking constantly.

- Squall

Terrible Beast?
Image:Sin2.jpg

Exactly how is this POV? It is the truth, therefore, it cannot possibly be POV. There is also a difference between an article about Hitler and an article about the history of a fictional video game universe. There is a certain "style" I've been trying to maintain within this article, and "destructive force" just sounds, to put it crudely, very gay. I chose the words I did to elicit certain emotions and images. When I think of "force" I think of things like the force of gravity, or electromagnetism; things with no real physical presense, things that are not to be feared or seen. When I think of "terrible beast" I imagine something massive and horrible, both in appearance and in deed. A lot of people have edited on this article (including administrators) and nobody has seen fit to remove that line. It should stay. It's not like the line reads "Terrible, horrible, hideous, unspeakably evil beast". No, just, "terrible beast". A small amount of artistic license to make the article more enjoyable to our readers.

Tell me, what better describes this picture? Terrible beast, or destructive force?PiccoloNamek 00:22, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * "Destructive Force" was coined for lack of better alternative. It was the best thing I could come up with. Of course my editing style of WP is much much different than yours, and I seem to be an NPOV freak when it comes to articles. IMO the word "terrible" can't be more of a Negative Point of View. Maybe the term "Fearsome Beast" would fit better. After all, Sin plagued Spira with fear. When I hear the word "terrible beast", I think "Really really really really bad beast." I'll test out "fearsome beast" and see how it sticks. --LBMixPro(Speak on it!) 04:14, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * I suppose live with that. Maybe. I still think terrible sounds better. I looked up "terrible" in Webster's Dictionary, and the very first definition was:

"1 a : exciting extreme alarm or intense fear : TERRIFYING b : formidable in nature : AWESOME"

Which is exactly what I was going for. When I say "terrible" I don't necessarily just mean "terribly evil" or "terribly huge" or whatever, but also Sin's terrible, overriding presence, it's immense power, the sheer greatness of him. When you stand before Sin, you are indeed afraid, but you are also in awe, and, as much as you hate him, you have to also respect him, in a sense. I don't think any other word will work in quite the same way as "terrible".

I also want to apologize if I sounded angry or unreasonable. I'm rarely angry, just overly blunt.PiccoloNamek 04:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

This article has served its purpose
I was browsing my other home on the internet, Gamingforce.com, and I came across a post entitled "Wikipedia: Good or Bad?" Regardless of what the answer is, I found this gem inside:

"On the other hand, it's neat to look up stuff that you didn't know and probably won't find widespread anywhere else. I can mainly recall the explanation of Final Fantasy X's story, which I would never have pieced from the game, even after beating it."

That's us! We should all pat ourselves on the back. :)PiccoloNamek 07:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Via Purifico
I don't think the Via Purifico is notable enough to warrent an entry here:

1. It isn't even marked on the map like most of the others are. 2. The player is only in there for a very short period of time. 3. You can't ever return there once you leave. 4. No significant story events happen there.

If nobody objects, I'm going to remove it, or at least significantly trim it. It's simply too non-notable. The small entry within the Bevelle section was fine.PiccoloNamek 12:40, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
 * I complete agree with its removal; it's pointless to create a section. I just merged it to get that tag off. Deckiller 19:54, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Tidus
Tidus isn't mentioned in the main narrative at all. I read through it wondering what Tidus's situation was. My situation is unique however in that I played through a portion of the game and then I got robbed and practically my entire game and DVD collection got taken or damaged. Also, a clarification of Zanarkand's "dream" status would be helpful. Jecht isn't mentioned here at all either. Hackwrench 17:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

The main part of the article is for discussing the past of Spira, the backstory, not what happens during the course of the game. You can read about Tidus and Jecht in their own respective articles. The main story is covered in depth there.PiccoloNamek 18:34, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Farplane
There was an inaccurate line in the Farplane section identifying it as being partly within Spira and partly within an alternate dimension. This is inaccurate in that the place lies entirely within Spira's mantle. The gateway in Guadoasalam that allows access to the Farplane is deep underground, as is the entirety of that settlement. The Farplane is no more in an alternate dimension than the location at the centre of FFVII's world where Cloud and friends battled Sephiroth. I've corrected this error.

I've also clarified the matter that mentions that it is believed that pyreflies form the images of the dead on the Farplane in reaction to the living's memories. I've done so by pointing out that this is merely the Al Bhed's belief. In actuality, while it's true that it is a reaction of pyreflies to the living's memories, it is also true that only the images of those whose spiritual energy has come to rest on the Farplane can be seen there, as demonstrated through Lady Ginnem and Seymour. It isn't just the illusion that the Al Bhed thought it to be.

I also decided to clarify that the "magical energy" within the Farplane is spiritual energy a.k.a. "Spirit Energy" (as its referred to in Final Fantasy VII). Pyreflies are, after all, spiritual energy, and Shinra in FFX-2 identifies the energy flowing through the Farplane as the life energy of the planet Spira.

By the way, I also wanted to say that there's been some terrific work done on this page. The "Good Article" designation is well-deserved.

Ryu Kaze February 9, 2006

Thank you very much! That was an extremely high-quality edit! I was wondering who had made it.PiccoloNamek 02:05, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, you're welcome. Thanks for the compliment.

Ryu Kaze 9:30 PM February 9, 2006


 * Excellent work! BTW, where did you get the Spirit Energy and the link to FFVII info ? Do you have the Final Fantasy X Ultimania guide ? That is where Nojima reveals the links during his interview but I found NO RELIABLE SOURCE for it on the Web. There are a lot of people in forums talking about it and GAMEFAQ has some passing mentions of it (On a FFX-2 challenge of all places!) but no "clean" place where the interview is translated... I'd like to add it to the stub I made for the ultimania guide. Renmiri 21:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Renmiri
 * PS: Do you have a source for your claim that the Farplane resides within Spira's mantle ? I'd like to use it for my Fan Fiction Renmiri 21:31, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Renmiri
 * PPS: Also beware of relying too much on Nojima's words that FFVII and FFX-2 are linked and be even more weary of affirming that Materia/ Spirit Energy is the same as Pyreflies. You probably got this idea from Squall of Seed, right ? It is a very compelling piece but Nojima did not say that. He said something vague about both FFVII and FFX-2 games "Energy harvesting" plots being connected but he never went that far and this particular interview was in 2003. After that he left Square Enix and never repeated this. Nojima is now an independent contractor that is hired often by SE but it doesn't mean that SE will follow his 2003 ideas on new FFVII stories...
 * I'm not being picky, the comments above are just FYI. I favor this theory myself, but there are A LOT of FFVII fans who hate it and raise the points I made above, among others. Renmiri 21:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Renmiri

Thanks, Renmiri. I got the information on the "Spirit Energy" of VII being equivalent to the pyreflies of Final Fantasy X both from Squall of SeeD's essay on that subject and from the FFX Ultimanias, as well as just from casual observation. I think it was rather obvious. Then again, I've read the Ultimanias for FFX which identifies pyreflies as "bundles of life energy," which is, indeed, the same thing as spiritual energy.

By the way, that link you gave to Squall of SeeD's essay is actually a bit old. The most recent form of it can be seen here:

http://faqs.ign.com/articles/657/657331p1.html

It basically just connects the rather obvious dots between Final Fantasy VII through X-2, and TSW and Unlimited, all of which infer this idea of the spiritual energy from within worlds being the source of magic and such. Pyreflies are definitely the same thing as VII's "Spirit Energy," and spheres are the same as VII's materia. Just different forms and/or names for the same things. Makes sense for it to happen that way considering that different worlds are going to have different cultures.

Anyway, Nojima's interview where he talks about Shinra of the Gullwings and his status as the ancestor of Rufus Shinra (which is in the FFX-2 Ultimania Guide, by the way, not any of the FFX Ultimanias) is translated fairly accurately in the link above to Squall's FFVII FAQ. It kind of borders between direct translation and English localization and comes out as something of a combination of the two, but it conveys the idea well enough. I'm afraid I don't have any other links to offer you aside from this one which you've most likely seen. Certainly no official translation is available.

As for Nojima, while it's true that the interview was in 2003 and that he left Square-Enix shortly thereafter and is now a free agent, almost a year after that, X-2: International+Last Mission was released and actually featured the first step in the concept that Nojima had talked about previously (Rin and Shinra working together to harness spirit energy). Though it doesn't go into a lot pf details about it. For that matter, the Ultimania Omega for VII (released this past September) brings up the issue too, saying that the results of Shinra's work aren't seen in X-2, but implying that perhaps his descendants would found a company that utilized it. All of this would lend to suggesting that Square-Enix supports Nojima's idea, or at least are allowing it to go unvetoed.

I like the concept Nojima came up with, as well, and I have also seen many counterpoints to it among fans. A lot of them are brought up in Squall's FAQ, and rather effectively shot down in a point-counterpoint section. He would also seem to be a supporter of the idea.

If you have any other questions, suggestions, or "FYI"s, feel free to toss 'em out.

Ryu Kaze 21:10 February 10 2006

Thanks for the updates!!! I'm glad you are joining the list of FFX fanatics at Wikipedia, you seem to know a lot about it!
 * BTW, I think all this discussion is far too detailed for Wikipedia so I just put a small note on the FFX2 Ultimania page. But at Wikibooks you are allowed to expand on a Wikipedia subject so you may want to add this paragraph above to either one of the 3 Wikibooks about FFX, which BTW, need a lot of work!

Renmiri 17:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)Renmiri

On Al Bhed stealing the Fayth
The FFX game shows that this "habit" of Al Bhed to kidnap summoners is very recent. At the begining of FFX Rikku and brother are diving for machina, NOT stealing fayth stones.. Only after Yuna becomes a summoner that you see them kidnapping her. It makes a lot of sense that it is a recent thing. If the Al Bhed went around hiding fayth stones and kidnapping summoners, they would have kidnapped Braska, would they not ? And Bevelle would certainly arrest some Al Bhed, would they not ? Bottom line, no one really knows who stole Yojimbo's fayth stone - or even if it was stolen. Maybe the cave is a trial like the rest of the temple trials. So I added the clarifier that Yuna's team believes that the stone was stolen by the AL Bhed, which may not necessarily be the case. An equally probable theory would be that rebel monk Omega did it. As FFX-2 shows, Spira has a lot of mysterious episodes in it's past. Renmiri 21:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)Renmiri

Pyreflies
After the discussion over at the Final Fantasy X Talk Page, I've now merged Pyreflies with the Spira page. The original Pyreflies page can now be found on the Final Fantasy Wiki's Pyreflies page.

Anyone not satisfied with this? Ryu Kaze 08:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Pyreflies has now been merged with Mythology of Final Fantasy X. Ryu Kaze 20:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

FFX Wiki Cleanup
(Please direct discussion of this matter to the Final Fantasy X Talk Page) Ryu Kaze 08:46, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Adding Blitzball here would just make the article too big. I think the Blitzball article is fine where it is.  &rArr;  Jarlaxle Artemis   05:32, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's been agreed upon already, actually, but thanks for the feedback. Blitzball is staying, as is the Soundtrack page. The other mergers have either already taken place or the specifics of the process are still being discussed. Refer to the Final Fantasy X Talk Page for more on that, or to see where things are currently, head over to the newly created Mythology of Final Fantasy X page. Ryu Kaze 14:34, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

On the etymology of "Spira"
There's a statement in the introductory paragraph of this article that states "the name "Spira" was based on the highly prevalent concepts within Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy X-2 concerning cycles and repetition...." This sounds perfectly reasonable, but there's no citation to verify that this was the reasoning of the game's developers. Without some proof, it's speculation, and it doesn't belong here. Does anyone have a citation for it? – Seancdaug 21:08, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I've been wondering about this myself. As far as I know, "Spira" refers only to the Spiral of death that is mentioned in the game.PiccoloNamek 22:01, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Issue resolved. Ryu Kaze 17:39, 9 March 2006 (UTC)