Talk:Spira (Final Fantasy)/Archive 2

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Featured article
I've been bold enough to nominate this article to be a featured article. I really like the way it was writen and the amount of relevant information included. Please fell free to post you're opinions.Nnfolz 21:25, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think this is a bad idea. The article is nowhere near featured quality yet, and now a bunch of people are going to come and edit the crap out of it, in a bad way. Perhaps you shouldn't have stirred things up. :(PiccoloNamek 21:56, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I agree. Featured articles are always edited into a boring Wikipedia-style article.  &rArr;  Jarlaxle Artemis   03:55, 5 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I forsee that happening when Rush (band) goes to FA nom. Deckiller 03:59, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Have to agree with the above. As much as I like this page, I acknowledge that neither it -- and probably not my pride and joy, Mythology of Final Fantasy X, either -- are up to Featured Article status yet. We'll just have to maintain it as best we can. Ryu Kaze 14:32, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Blitzball

 * I see the blitzball section was removed and I undertand the reason although I consider them not to be valid. You see I was not trying to write an article about blitzball per-se I was rather trying to make a mention of it with a link to the main article. I mean, this article IS about Spira and I was talking about its main sport. I feel the few sentences where its mention is not enough and that it rathers deserves a section for itself. What do you guys think? And also I seriously doubt that adding a paragraph or even two about blitzball will make the article to long. I won´t revert this change without discussion first (the reason being that I respect the work that has gone into writing this and do not want to start an inecessary edit war), but I still consider my point to be valid. If they are any objections to what I'm saying please express them so I can adress them and hopefully keep the section.Nnfolz 19:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * At one time, I thought the same thing, but I've since been made to understand that the purpose of this article was to be along the same line as the List of Final Fantasy VII locations page and the other FF location pages -- and, indeed, this article links to them at the top. It's simply entitled "Spira" because there's much more depth to FFX's world in making it and its locations feel like a real world, rather than simply a place with a bunch of locations on it where a couple of games take place.


 * In other words, the Spira page wasn't intended to be a catch-all for anything related to the world of Spira that may or may not fit anywhere else, but, rather, it was merely intended to be a list of locations from FFX and FFX-2, but it comes across as something much deeper than that because of how much more depth there is to this game's world (even necessitating the inclusion of backstory info with regards to Sin and Yu Yevon). It's called "Spira" instead of "List of FFX and FFX-2 locations" because the concept of this world having a name is pushed forward much more profoundly than in the other games, with the possible exception of Final Fantasy XI, whose location list is also appropriately entitled "Vana'diel" instead of "List of FFXI locations."


 * Sure, FFVII's world (Gaia) has a name, but outside of the location called "Gaia's Cliffs" -- and a promotional pamphlet for Advent Children handed out at E3 in 2004 -- there's no significance for this name as far as the locations go. For all it's actually made relevant, the planet may as well not have a name, and most fans dont even know it does. FFIX's world (also named Gaia) only slightly pushes more strongly where this is concerned, but it uses the name Gaia more as a line of distinction between it and the planet Terra than anything else. We don't even hear mention of FFIX's world being called Gaia until it's time for us to learn about Terra.


 * With FFX, Spira is the name of this world with all these diverse places and cultures and it's a word that people use frequently to refer to the whole of this interrelated melting pot of diversity, not just something they might bring up once in a year to distinguish it from another planet. "Spira" is a word that entails a lot in its usage, bringing up all these places and all these different cultures and groups of people, whereas "Gaia" in the context of FFVII brings up the imagery of "That place where FFVII is set. I just learned it was called that the other day, actually."


 * Anyway, that's the reasoning behind the name and why so many other things weren't incorporated into this page. As far as a link to the blitzball page goes, though, there's that FFX and X-2 navigation box at the bottom of the article that links to the various other FFX and X-2 pages (all the characters, as well as the blitzball page, the Al Bhed article, the Mythology of Final Fantasy X page, and even the official soundtrack page. So if you really just wanted to put the link in here with a brief mention of Spira, the info you brought up on Spira is really already in body of the article anyway, and there's links within the body of the article and at the end too.


 * I hope this is an adequate explanation of the reasoning behind why blitzball doesn't figure more prominently into the article than it already does as far as its relevance to certain locations goes. Ryu Kaze 22:44, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand the reasoning and your explanation very well, but i don't understand the reasons behind it. I understand what the main purpose of the article is (in no way i mean to change that), but it's also clear to me that the people who wrote this went farther. This article has grwon so much from just being a location list, it has the potential to be a great article instead of a tourist map. Please re-evaluate your position and don't be afraid to let the article grow. I don´t know but it's almost as if you(in plural) don´t want it to improve. Please dont be afraid to let it evolve, you guys created something good here. Let´s keep working on it.Nnfolz 23:26, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliments (most of them should be given to PiccoloNamek, in my opinion; he's done the most work on this particular page). The thing is, at its core, this is really just a location list that necessitates a great deal of depth because there is so much depth. It would break with its flow and its purpose to add in other things beyond the backstory info. That information was only really added to begin with because the nature of its significance heavily influences so much of what needs to be said about Kilika, Bevelle, Zanarkand, and Luca, etc. The spiral of death backstory is inseperable from any discussion of Spira. As Auron said, "Spira is full of death"; death which all relates back to the spiral of death.

We actually had a section on pyreflies in here at one point, simply because there was nowhere else to put it at the time, and while we all accepted that it was the best place for the moment, it really did break with the flow of the page, even just being that -- and coming at the beginning like that sports section. Really, though, as I said before, the info you had in that section was made redundant by the info in other parts of the article, which actually do link to the main blitzball article anyway.

There's actually 7 uses of the word "blitzball" before the FFX and X-2 navigation box at the bottom, and the location/people-relevant info you'd added concerning blitzball ("Besides a sport blitzball also serves as the main method of distraction and entretaining for the people in Spira") is actually mentioned in the section on Luca. The info describing what blitzball is in more detail ("The game plays like a mix of soccer and basketball with a twist, it's underwater. Teams of six players each try to get the ball in the opposing team goal to score a point") doesn't mesh with the rest of the info in the article and comes off really extrinsic, info meant for a page discussing blitzball. Also, since the most relevant info concerning blitzball (as far as this kind of article is concerned) is mentioned in the section on Luca, that renders it quite redundant as well.

Another thing to remember here is the audience: This is supposed to serve as a general interest encyclopedia, so a single page like this that goes into depth on the locations, the religion, the aeons, blitzball etc. is not suited to this kind of venue, and is why we group them together in how they best fit as general interest pages. Something that diall of that is more suited to the FF Wiki at Wikicities or the Illustrated Guide to Spira on Wikibooks. Ryu Kaze 23:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * P.S. Whatever PiccoloNamek feels would be best, I'll go along with. He doesn't own the page, but it has been his baby. I'm sure he'll be able to respond within the next day. Ryu Kaze 23:51, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I do not think this article needs any information concerning Blitzball beyond what is already included. More detailed information can be found in the Blitzball article. This was thoroughly discussed on the Final Fantasy X talk page, and it was decided that Blitzball should remain separate. Any detailed explanation concerning sports would completely break the flow and feel of the article. However, I do take offense at saying we're not letting the article evolve. In fact, I was planning some serious evolution soon, starting with making proper references and citations, like the Mythology Article has. In fact, much of those could just be copied over here, now that I think about it.PiccoloNamek 01:46, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Article name
I have been reading this article and its talk page. Although this article is well written either the title name is wrong or it is being dominated by a few editors, which is not the wikipedia way. This article is a well written list of locations. It presents little or no information on Spira's history, its customs, languages, people (chracters) ,etc. So I believe this article should be renamed Locations in Spira or it should be allowed to be edited by other editors. A good example is the sports in Spira section that is being discussed above. Why not allow a section on sports since this article is about Spira in general? I see that in the see also section an explanation has been given to the "idea" behind the article but the fact is that article names are the ones that present the idea of the article. The article named Spira ahould be about everything in Spira (much like the article on the United States, Mexico or any other country). Joelito 21:54, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

But this article is not about Spira in general, nor does the name need to be changed. There are other articles for covering the topics you mentioned. Such as Mythos of Final Fantasy X. All of the important characters have their own individual articles as well. There will be no sports section because it would be a drastic clash with the tone of the rest of the article. In order to do what you are suggesting, we would have to merge just about every other FFX article into this one, which of course, isn't going to happen. It simply would not be fesible to have such a gigantic article. Use the navbox to navigate through the Final Fantasy X article group.

And what do you mean there is little information on Spira's history? The section entitled "The beginning" is basically Spira's entire history up until the point where Final Fantasy X begins. As for Spira's customs, that information is contained within Mythos of Final Fantasy X. There are only two languages in Spira: English/Japanese (Depending on the game's region), and Al Bhed. Al Bhed has its own article. All of the characters, both major and minor, have their own articles. Nobody in Project Final Fantasy will support merging all of that information into this artcle, or any giant, almalgamated article. Changing the name of the article is pointless, because changing it will accomplish nothing, and the other information covered in the rest of the articles will not be added even if the name stays the same. So it's best to do nothing at all.PiccoloNamek 21:57, 7 March 2006 (UTC)


 * If the article name remains Spira it should include everything about Spira. Also merging articles into this one would happen if you let it happen. I know you wrote this article mostly by yourself and I must congratulate you on a great job but as it stands the article does not grasp the complete concept of Spira; which it should. I know every aspect of the game has its own article. Again well done by the Project Final Fantasy members but this article should be the one that merges all those articles. I really hope you can objectively and calmly analyze what I'm proposing since it's very reasonable. Joelito 01:30, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I disagree. Does Earth need to contain everything about the planet? I shudder to think about the length of Universe under those criteria. What you are suggesting, frankly, is not "reasonable": it's a guaranteed recipe for an extremely long article which, in all likelihood, would lack internal cohesion. As it stands, this article deals primarily with the geography of the planet, making it roughly analagous to any other article about any other planet, real or fictional. I see no compelling reason to break that trend in this instance, particularly since it does not appear to offer any real advantages to the reader. Someone looking for information on blitzball (for instance), is most likely to search for either blitzball or Final Fantasy X. Someone who becomes interested in blitzball from reading this article can navigate to the blitzball article easily enough via linking. Though I consider myself a mergist, I recognize that an article should have a reasonably strong concept, and that the "kitchen sink" approach is neither workable nor particularly useful. – Seancdaug 01:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

It's not just me. It has nothing to do with me "letting" it happen. It is not reasonable. It would be a tremendous amount of work merging all of the other articles we've all worked on into one giant article. Not only would all of the content have to be merged into this article, but we would have to spend considerable time rearranging it and getting the flow right, aligning the images (speaking of images, this article already has more than the recommended amount of fair use images, an amalgamated article would just simply have too many), and, perhaps the most tedious part, fixing all of the redirects and inbound links, not to mention it isn't generally seen as a good thing to have such a massive article, which is why articles like Mythos of Final Fantasy X are created in the first place.PiccoloNamek 01:36, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * So it is prefered that the article remain devoid or lacking certain key aspects of Spira than to go through the trouble of making it right? Joelito 01:41, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

"Right" is subjective. I think that it is perfectly right, and all of the other information that is needed can be found in the articles in the Final Fantasy X navbox.


 * Ok right is subjective. How about complete, engrossing, encompassing, comprehensive. Joelito 01:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Those are subjective as well. The article is complete, engrossing, encompassing, and comprehensive for what it was intended for. Besides, in the end, it really doesn't matter, I doubt the others would agree to perform such a massive mega-merge any way. If they did, however, I would be willing to work with them.PiccoloNamek 01:42, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * There's absolutely no way I would agree to an idea like that. Not even drunk would I. Hell, Wikipedia's own standards wouldn't agree to that if they were drunk. Even on Wikibooks and Wikicities where there's no standard for length, things get divided into different pages for the purpose of coherency, flow and reasonable maintenance.


 * Also, you aren't considering the audience here: general interest. If someone looks for this page, it stands to reason that it's because they want to read about the geography of Spira, most likely with info that touches on internal workings in relation to its populace. That's what this page does.


 * If I look up "Earth," I don't want to read about everything from what kind of fish I can find in the south pacific to the first known hammer. Likewise, if I look up "Japan," I don't want to read about everything from the first identified type of foliage over there on down to the most recent company to have been founded.


 * No encyclopedia does what you're suggesting. For that matter, since any discussion of Spira is automatically a discussion of FFX, why would we be mergiing everything in here instead of into FFX? FFX-2 would have to go in there as well. Ryu Kaze 04:48, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Clearly you have misunderstoos what my proposal was. I proposed that this article be an introduction to the most relevant topics concerning Spira. I am not suggesting that every article be merged here. Just little overviews, not go into detail. Much like the Japan article you mentioned or History of Earth. For exmaple the Japana article introduces people Japan's history, politics, geography, economy, military, etc. but extensive details on the topics are given on other articles such as History of Japan, Geography of Japan, etc. This is what I was proposing. Joelito 12:22, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding, but the way it was worded definitely suggested that, you know?


 * Anyway, don't you think the article already does that anyway? There's mention of the Mythology page in the opening, blitzball is linked where mentioned, as are the Al Bhed, etc. and then at the bottom of the page, we've got the navbox:

FFX


 * I honestly can't see any purpose at this point in introducing -- at most -- two more paragraphs for a purpose that would be made redundant. If you have an idea in mind for how it could work without breaking flow or lending to redundancy, though, show us if you would, please.


 * And again sorry for the misunderstanding. Ryu Kaze 13:39, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I believe we should do what Joelito is suggesting. I to believe that if tha article is about Spira it should contain a bit of everything with links to the main articles for more details. Personally I think This article needs the following sections: Languages, Sports, Religion, Society, History, Costumes, Heirarchy and technology. Obiously like Ryu said, I do not plan of making this article super long by merging the rest into this one, but I think those topics deserve a brief mention  in a section entierely (did I spelled that word right?) for them and not just to be mention like litle facts here and there with no propper organization. Ohh and yes, that would mean organizing the lose information regarding those topics trought the article in sections. What do you guys think? Should I start? Can I count with your help?Nnfolz 15:10, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * No. It isn't good to make such massive changes yourself, because you feel like it, not to mention it would break the flow of the articlePiccoloNamek 15:29, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Sigh* This is exactly why we said making this page a Featured Article nominee was a bad idea.


 * Anyway, we've already got all those things cover, Nnfolz:


 * Languages (of which there are only two) are covered by there being an Al Bhed language page.
 * Sports (of which there's only one) is covered in how it pertains to people and locations in the Spira page and is also covered in terms of the game itself on the blitzball page.
 * Religion (of which there's only one) is covered on the Mythology of Final Fantasy X page.
 * Society is covered by the Spira and Mythology of Final Fantasy X pages.
 * History is covered by the Spira and Mythology of Final Fantasy X pages.
 * Costumes/Cothing... uh... why?
 * Hierarchy is covered by Mythology of Final Fantasy X.
 * Technology is covered by Spira and Mythology of Final Fantasy X.


 * This is how non-internet encyclopedias do things too, you know? Why would we need to condense all that into one page or just repeat it all again? Ryu Kaze 17:36, 8 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I know you got all of those topics covered and I know where. Thats one of the reason I think what I'm saying is posible, because it would simply be quoting a bit of the article with a note that said: "from main article ____". Of course, we would keep the main disscussion about the topics in the main article, but I do believe this article should be more than a list of locations since Sipira is more that a place in the game, is more of a colective character. I really don't get any reason for you guys to oppose what I'm saying other that you'd like to keep control over an article wich you have writen (I dont blame you for that). But please notice that all that control to the article is not allowing it to grow to its full potential.Nnfolz 04:07, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Peer Review
I'm thinking about requesting this article to be peer reviewed. Any objections?Nnfolz 04:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I object very much. This article is perfectly fine the way it is. A peer review would attract an enormous amount of editors who know nothing of this article or how much work went into it, or what it is supposed to be or encompass. Most of them probably haven't even played FFX or X2. I can see it becoming just another boring encylopedia entry. People outside of the Final Fantasy project have said to me that they enjoyed reading this article, that it not only informed them of what they didn't know, but that the article actually grabbed and kept their attention. I do not think that you, or any of the bureaucrats at FAC, nor any one at Peer Review understand this. There is NO reason an encylopedia article cannot be both informative, factually correct, AND written in such a way that the article has life and feeling, rather than simply being a body of information.

If they get their hands on this, it will end up reading like stereo instructions, mark my words. It will no longer be something that people will want to read, but rather something that they relegate themselves to reading because it's the only place to find what they're looking for. And when they're done with it, they won't remember it 5 minutes later. It will just be another random article among thousands. I truly wish that you would cease stirring things up. The status quo, in this case, is fine. If you request a peer review for it, you will have my unending enmity. (Of course, this is not meant to imply that I would start vandalizing your userpage or leaving angry messages on your talk page or anything of that nature. I would just hate you, that's all.)PiccoloNamek 04:41, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I really don't think this is a healthy attitude to take, PN. As it stands, this article is the product of the dedicated work of under ten people. It's impressive, but to suggest that it doesn't have problems that could be resolved with input from a fresh perspective is foolish, IMO. I understand that you're very protective of the article, but part of the goal of the Wikipedia project is to craft a scholarly acceptable encyclopedia. In short, it doesn't have to be boring, but it does have to be an encyclopedia article ("one among thousands," as you put it): if you feel that it is impossible for an article to be one and not the other, than you're really contributing to the wrong project . I haven't agreed with many of Nnfolz's suggestions to date, but it's unforgivable to accuse him of "stirring things up": he has every bit as much right to edit this article as you, I, or anyone else, and the fact that we don't always agree with his additions hardly makes him a troll. There are other places for it if it's not, after all. All that being said, though, I strongly suggest listing it for Final Fantasy WikiProject peer review before going to the larger process. I know it's been through the process before, but it may be worth revisiting in light of recent changes. It will save a great deal of time and effort should we later move on to the main review. – Seancdaug 05:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

This was one of the first articles to be peer reviewed by this project, actually. The only problem we had was that Nifboy (I think) thought the backstory section was too long. Other than that, I cannot remember any particular complaints. And of course you're right, he does have the right to edit this article. But that doesn't mean I won't do my damnedest to discourage what I see as a threat to the article's well-being and integrity. I have no problem with people working on this page. Ryu made a ton of edits all at once the very day he registered and I didn't revert or challenge a single one of them. Why? Because he understands the article. Nnfolz does not. If he really wants to help he should learn about the history of the article and the writing style used to create it. He should also take the motto of the New Yevon church to heart: "One thing at a time."

Damn, my Wikistress level is about a maximum. I'm gonna pop. I would say right now according to the Boschmeter Wikistress meter I'm in Wikihell.PiccoloNamek 05:14, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * PN, I really hope you don't take this wrong way, as I've been in similar situations myself more often than I care to recount (ask Renmiri ), but you really don't have any more authority than anyone else to determine who does and who does not "understand" this article. I (and others) respect that you've put a lot of time and effort into this article, and your opinion carries a great deal of weight with me, but it's still not up to you to ultimately dictate what is and what is not acceptable material here (and I say this as someone who broadly agrees with you regarding appropriate content for this article). Nnfolz may not share your (or my) views of what this article is, but that doesn't mean his view is wrong, or that it should be dismissed out-of-hand. – Seancdaug 05:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Exactly what is it that I dont understand?Nnfolz 05:20, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Everything, it seems. Well, that's a little harsh. You don't understand the heart of the article. It's not something that I can really communicate to you. I suppose "style" or "feeling" might be a slightly better way to put it. But if the feeling I'm getting from Sean is correct, such things don't really matter. It almost makes me want to despair. I'm beginning to regret that I ever submitted my original Spira article.PiccoloNamek 05:27, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * You shouldn't. It's a great article. But that doesn't mean there's no room for improvement. "Style" and "feeling" do matter, of course: one of the most commonly cited requirements of a successful featured article candidate is that the article be well composed. But it also needs to be encyclopedic. I'm not sure why you're convinced that getting external input is going to destroy the article, though. As I've said, I agree with you more often than not when it comes to the appropriate bounds of this article, and will no doubt continue to do so. But ultimately we still need to put this article through the same paces as any other article in order to ensure that it's encyclopedia-worthy. If we're drowned out by consensus, then so be it. But I adopting such a defensive attitude from the start is neither useful nor justified, IMO. – Seancdaug 05:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
 * That's the thing. This is not your article. Altough I apreciate and respect what you have done neither you nor I own this article and we both are free to change it (for better or worse). What I'm trying to do with all this discussion is to improve it but letting you guys know in advance and not be a bitch by just imposing my view here. Keep in mind that this is not an essay I you want to write where you and only you can give input in regards to style, order, organization, etc., perhaps you should visit http://www.gamefaqs.com .But since we are in wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit your attitue concerning this article is wrong. Besides, I don´t get while your trowing such a (dare I say) tantrum, because is not like I'm trying to vandalize the article or something.Nnfolz 05:32, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

If I am throwing a tantrum at all it is because I am extremely worried about the future of this article. To be extremely blunt I do not trust you to do a good job, or even a mediocre job. Everything about your manner and attitude sets off alarm bells in my mind. But go ahead, make your changes. Experience the wonders of the free encyclopedia. To be honest, I'm tired of arguing about it, and I'm tired of worrying about it. I've been worrying about it for two damn years and I don't want to bother with the whole thing any more. It has become nothing a source of stress and animosity for me. So I wish my hands of this article and everything to concerned with it. I wish you all luck. Have fun.PiccoloNamek 05:39, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't blame you for not trusting me. If I were you I probably woundt trust me either and I understand that u wouldnt like for me to come and destroy all the time and hard work that was clearly put into this article. I won't, don't worry.Nnfolz 06:03, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * If you can't assume good faith on the part of other contributors, that may be for the best, I'm sorry to say. That Nnfolz made some edits you disagreed with, and was willing to argue his point does not mean he's earned this degree of enmity. – Seancdaug 05:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't be sorry. It IS for the best. For all of us. I'm simply not going to worry about it anymore. And perhaps the article will become even better without my rather extreme limiting influence surrounding it. If anything, this is the mature thing to do, rather than sitting and arguing about it.PiccoloNamek 05:49, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so I took a look at Nnfolz's example version. If such new sections were to be included, I don't think that's the best place for them: Yuna's pilgrimmage needs to flow on from The beginning. I would place them either between Yuna's pilgrimmage and Locations, or after Locations. As a broader commentary, I'm still not convinced we need what will ammount to a group of section stubs that point to articles that could otherwise be listed in the See also section. >Gamemaker 14:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Ah, dammit. Why does all this happen when I'm asleep.

Anyway, I find myself agreeing with both sides here. I strongly agree with PN in the respect that the style and atmosphere of the article be maintained, but I also acknowledge that the page has to go through the same process as every other eventually, and it's time for that may have come. I'm quite concerned about it, as well, especially in this particular situation. No offense intended to you, Nnfolz, but some of your proposals have been quite ghastly.

I looked at your preview in the edit history, and I thoroughly disapprove of that particular suggestion on the following grounds:


 * "Sports in Spira" in itself is a throwaway title. There's only one sport in Spira, and it's brought up seven times within the article itself, is linked to within the article, and the navbox at the bottom links to it and the other relevant related articles. The proposed stub seems thoroughly redundant and unnecessary (repeats information and goes into details that don't connect with anything but the Blitzball article itself). I honestly don't see what it could accomplish aside from breaking coherency and flow within the article, especially with where you were propsing it be placed (right between two sections that logically flow into one another).

Now, that said, I can see a logical placement for the information. I refer you first to the "Yuna's pilgrimage and the Eternal Calm" section. It currently reads thus:


 * The only cities left that are larger than small villages are Luca, which houses the only blitzball stadium, and Bevelle, center of the religion of Yevon.

How about this instead?:


 * The only cities left that are larger than small villages are Luca, which houses the only stadium for Spira's sole sport, blitzball, and Bevelle, center of the religion of Yevon.

Okay, with that, we've knocked out some of the information you added already. Since that section is rather wides in scope, we don't need more details on blitzball there, but for the rest of it, I direct you now to the "Luca" section, which currently reads thus:


 * It also houses the only blitzball stadium in Spira. Because of this, the Crusaders, a group organized to protect the people of Spira from Sin, fought to the death in order to protect it. Blitzball was the only form of entertainment for the people of Spira during the time of Sin, and losing the stadium would have been a serious blow to their morale.

How about this?:


 * It also houses Spira's only stadium for blitzball, an underwater combination of soccer and rugby. Because of this, the Crusaders, a group organized to protect the people of Spira from Sin, fought to the death in order to protect Luca. Blitzball was the only form of entertainment for the people of Spira during the time of Sin, and losing the stadium would have been a serious blow to their morale.

That incorporates all the info you proposed without adding an unsightly stub.


 * The "Religion in Spira" thing is thoroughly bad. It's even more of a stub than the other thing and has no reason for being there. When all you've got is a redirect to something else, standards of writing suggest inserting that somewhere else, such that there's flow and coherency.

In that spirit, I propose moving its placement down to the Bevelle section, and adding a "See also: Mythology of Final Fantasy X" link like what we have in the Farplane section. Not only would this be the exact same thing you had proposed doing, but it wouldn't be at the top of the page, giving readers the idea that they were about to look at an unprofessional mish-mash of redirects.


 * The "Language in Spira" section, I don't know what to do with. I don't see a logical placement for it at the moment. Obviously someone who's coming to the Spira page is coming to read about its locations, but they absolutely must read the backstory info before doing so. The language thing doesn't figure into it anywhere else, and is just another stub.

There's nothing wrong with adding more information to something, in and of itself. Where it becomes a problem is when it would require breaking down coherency and flow to what's already there just in order to place it. Generally speaking, unless it's vital information, the pre-existing flow and atmosphere of anarticle trumps the placement of additional info if one cannot have both.

I can't logically see going into this extra detail -- with a stub no less -- for the simple fact that it means going into extra details on the Al Bhed people themselves, which isn't sensible for the purposes of this article. I say that because it unbalances the amount of details given for each race. Giving more info on the Al Bhed means the Guado, Hypello, Ronso, and regular humans are being shafted. That's why we link to the Races of Final Fantasy page where these other races are mentioned, and from there, they're not only informed about the Al Bhed having their own language, but are given a link to the page where they can read about it.

Anyway, how do you all feel about those suggestions? Ryu Kaze 15:19, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, they are a bunch of stubs (that's exactly why I didn't keept them on the main page) and I'm aware that the information is currently redundant, but what I was aiming to do is to calm you guys down. To get you guys to kind of look at the format i'm trying to do. Of course if a section on blitzball is added a bit a cleanup would have to be done to remove the lose facts about the subect trought the article and condensing them on a section with links to the main article.
 * I don't mind about changing the placement of the sections (I wasnt to happy with it myself). The main reason that i think those sections would be nice to have is because most of the information is already included in the article, but with no clear organization. So it would be really organizing the article a little. Feel free to change the order and name of the sections i'm proposing. I'll come back later and continue working at it.Nnfolz 16:38, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

What I'm trying to explain is that with your proposal, we're going to have a case where one of two things happens:

1) Either there's a lot of redundancy

or

2) There's a lot of skimpy information on the location sections themselves.

By condensing the "lose facts," you'd pretty much be flaying the meat off the bones of several sections. Obviously, the locations are more important than a blitzball and/or religion section when those subjects relate directly back to the location sections in a page on locations. That's why we have "See also: Mythology of Final Fantasy X" for the Farplane, and why I propose doing the same for Bevelle.

Further still, as I've said before, bringing in a new sub-section just to talk about the Al Bhed language is going to be throwing off the balance of equal attention that races receive on this page. Ryu Kaze 17:25, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * What I'm aiming for is not to be redundant. For example: I am aware that if I do a section on blitzball it will be redundant with preaty much everything that was said on the Luca section. Yes, we would have to fix the luca section to make it non redundant. The information i proposed to be put in those sections is already in the article, but is not organized. Adding sections will make the article more organized and more informative. If you look closely some sections about the locations contain litle info on the location itself. Take the Luca section for example. It's almost entirely about blitzball and its importance. That is one of the things we'll have to fix.Nnfolz 20:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Nnfolz, please could you explain why the existing Navigation box is not a suitable way of pointing readers at further information? >Gamemaker 17:35, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Because it points to locations and locations only. And not the variety of topics that are coverd in those locvations. Let's say you were to llok for info about blitzbal in this article. The navigation does not points to where the info is. You'll have to start reading form the top to find it.Nnfolz 20:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * You misunderstand: I'm referring to the Final Fantasy X and Final Fantasy X-2 Navigation box at the bottom of the article (demonstrated by Ryu Kaze further up this page) not the FF locations navbox. Why is this navigation box not suitable? >Gamemaker 23:36, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Here's referring to this very difficult to miss navbox:

FFX Ryu Kaze 14:12, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * It's nice to have the navbox, but the information on the article is still not organized.Nnfolz 14:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I will request a FF peer review for this article to help with the numerous task. Any objections?Nnfolz 20:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Feel free to do it, but seeing as how there isn't even a consensus on what these "numerous tasks" are -- nor have there even been proposals for more than a few simple tasks -- I don't see the point, especially when we can discuss this right here just fine. By the way, your point doesn't make sense seeing as how the FFX navbox is at the bottom of the page, not the top. Which is where it most obviously should be.


 * For that matter, it's not like it takes very long for blitzball to be mentioned... and for that matter, anyone looking for mention of blitzball could do a simple ctrl+f search to be taken straight to the first mention of blitzballl, which is itself a link to the blitzball article.


 * I'm really not seeing any logic behind any of this and you aren't even making an attempt to explain it in a fashion that points out any reasonable flaws in its current format.


 * If you're trying to convince us that you have a suggestion that would some way improve the article, you need to be trying to convince us, explaining how the current format is a shortcoming and how the proposed format is superior, not telling us that it makes sense to rip apart sections on a location list for no reason other than the name of the article. It's been explained why this article has the name it has, and it more than adequately serves as a junction for accessing all other information on Spira, FFX, and FFX-2. Ryu Kaze 20:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Take for example the article on Cambodia. Cambodia is a featured article about a country and althought they are diferent articles for the many topics it adresses (as a matter of fact, to the mayority of them) they are still mentioned. Of course it adds a link to the main article, but it still talks about it. Take for example the section: Economy of Cambodia or Politics of Cambodia. They both have separate articles for themselves, but an extract of that is posted on the page. I belive withoput those sections the page woul not be complete. The article still has a whole section dedicated to links (athough not in the nav box format). I believe we should try to achieve something like that here. Organizing all the lose facts (they are many) into sections and try to go a bit deeper into those sections where litle is spoken about the topic in the header (Luca for example). u guys get it now? Please tell me if you did not understand anything so I can clarify it.Nnfolz 14:36, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

There isn't nearly as much to say about blitzball as there is about the Demographics, economy or geography of Cambodia, rendering such little sections as that not only unsightly, but entirely irrelevant. Furthermore, blitzball's value in Spira is relative only to its value to the people and locations, which are touched upon within the article where relevant. To remove those bits of information from those sections is detracting relevant information from those locations instead of consolidating info on blitzball.

There's not even a lot to say about blitzball in the first place, and as I've said above, what there is to say is only so relevant as blitzball's relevance to the people of Spira and the locations in Spira.

As far as the religion goes, this is a very vital aspect of Spira, yes, but take a look at the article as a whole and explain to us where it would naturally fit in the article. There isn't really anywhere that it would, which is why we link to the Mythology page (I've added extra links, which you can see in the Edit History), because while it is a vital aspect of Spira, understanding the hierarchy is not vital to the information being described. It's there for people to learn about if they want to at the single click of a mouse, but it's not necessary to understanding that the Guado live in Guadosalam or that the Al Bhed lived on Bikanel Island. Readers have numerous links to that page (even before the two I just added now).

Also, what you're suggesting about going deeper into details on each section to compensate for the loss of the blitzball and/or religion info would 1) break the flow of the page, 2) mean some sections are going to inevitably be skimpier than others, when maintaining a balance is one of the objectives here, and 3) become more a list of "This is what happens here in Final Fantasy X and/or Final Fantasy X-2" instead of a list of locations with information on those places themselves.

Also, as I've said before, going into details on the Al Bhed language means throwing off the balance of attention that the various races get.

By the way, I don't know about everyone else, but I take slight offense at your suggestion that we didn't get what you've been saying and that it's the reason we're opposing this. We get it just fine; we just disagree with you. Ryu Kaze 16:18, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * First, always assume good faith. Second, Nnfolz, your comment regarding the Navbox didn't answer the question of why it isn't a suitable way of pointing readers at further information, in fact your comment suggests that you think it is. With this in mind, I find it harder to see a need to add small subsections to the article, just to catch offhand references to other topics. >Gamemaker 16:46, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I am assuming good faith, Game, but I'm not seeing the logic or necessity behind his suggestions. The only one I can really see being relevant is some info on the religion, but since it's not actually necessary, as it's otherwise dealth with/directed to, I don't see the point. The other two suggestions, though, I see as highly detrimental to the article.


 * By the way, Nnfolz, when you say the information's not organized, by what standard? Remember, this is a location list, with information oriented around locations and people. From that perspective, I'd say it's very much organized. Ryu Kaze 17:49, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, I did say the navbox was a nice addition, but I argued that there was to many loose information trought the article that could be (and should be) organized in sections for easier finding and reading, of course with a link to the main article speaking on that topic (the perpetual example of this is blitzball). Ryu, please don't keep reaping that I havent explaind myself because continual repetion of a false statement does not converts its into a true statement.Nnfolz 17:57, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * "Remember, this is a location list, with information oriented around locations and people". That has been exactly my argument all along. The name of the Article is Spira, not Locations of Spira. Therefore having sections on History of Spira (before and after the game), locations, mythology, culture, weapons (crafts), people, etc. makes sense to me. The locations should be moved to a separate article but a section should remain in this article that gives an overview of locations, islands, etc.. Joelito 17:54, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've requested a Peer review. Hopefully more unbiased editors will come and contribute something to the article. I think fresh input will be nice.Nnfolz 18:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Again, you can do that if you wish, but your blatant unwillingess to extend to anyone the respect of addressing either the points they make or the questions they ask you is not well-received, I assure you. Furthermore, you contradict yourself quite openly, one minute complimenting the editors who have worked on this page, while in the next, you won't even extend to them the respect of acknwoledging they've spoken. This is poor behavior, in case you aren't aware of it.

By the way, Writers' rules of engagement says "Concede a point, when you have no argument against it. Declare when your disagreement is based on intuition or taste." When you won't even respond to a point or question, that kind of says you don't have an argument against it. Ryu Kaze 20:50, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Okay, for the moment, I'm going to put your disrespectful nature aside and try to consider the betterment of the article. I do understand that you only want to improve the article, despite how you're going about it.


 * What I'm trying to explain is that despite the article's name, it's intended to be a list of locations. If we made a seperate page to move all the locations to (a "List of Final Fantasy X locations" page), we'd have no need for this "Spira" page anymore, because everything would still be covered in the same way it is right now ("List of FFX locations," "Mythology of FFX," "Al Bhed language" and "Blitzball"). Unless you're propsing that we make two "Gaia" pages (one for FFVII and one for FFIX) and an "Earth" page for FFIV, then there wouldn't even be consistency among the FFs any longer, and that is one of the main objectives of the Final Fantasy Wikiproject. Futhermore, the idea of late has been to consolidate all the extrinsic and unnecessary FF pages, because Wikipedia is not a FF fansite.


 * The article's name is "Spira," but it's intended to act as "List of Final Fantasy X locations." What you're proposing is that this page be essentially turned into a FFX and X-2 navigation page when we have a FFX and X-2 navbox for that purpose already. Ryu Kaze 22:04, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've already adress all of you and PN points. ANyone who is bored enough to read the whole discussion can see that. The only reason you are even opposing my proposals are because of your sense of ownership on the article. So please refrain on bringing me links to wikipedia guidelines to imply that i'm being disrespecfull or not adressing your points.Nnfolz 17:48, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Merge of the History section into Mythology of Final Fantasy X

 * I agree with Joelito when he says that the title of the article is misleading, and that if it were meant to be purely a list of locations, maybe it should not carry the title of "Spira." It has been said by Ryu Kaze, and is implied by the inclusion of the "Final Fantasy locations" navbox, that the article is part of a series of Lists of Locations. In all of those lists they include only locations; they do not include information such as sports, religion, language or history (i.e. "The beginning of the spiral of death" and "Yuna's pilgrimage and the Eternal Calm"), of which the inclusion of the latter has presumably sparked this debate. Perhaps a merge of these historical accounts with Mythology of Final Fantasy X is in order? Flooch 05:07, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, technically, we've already got that info in Mythology, and care was taken in describing the information in different ways between the two pages. Here, I'll quote you something from the Mythology talk archives:


 * I know we wanted to avoid redundancy, and on the whole, I think we're doing it well enough. The sections are different enough to have different flavors, I think. While this section is about the same length as "The Beginning" added to "Yuna's pilgrimage and the Eternal Calm," it goes into more depth on certain things than "The Beginning" (for instance, here, I focused more on Yevon's intentions concerning Dream Zanarkand, Bevelle's reaction in dealing with Yunalesca, the Teachings, and the possibility that it was all according to a conspiracy between Yunalesca and Yevon) while "The Beginning" goes into more depth on some geographical-related info (which it obviously should), such as the Calm Lands being the war zone for Bevelle and Zanarkand, and that the warriors -- and, later, the scouts -- from Bevelle had to climb Mt. Gagazet to reach Zanarkand; "The Beginning" also does more to emphasise Bevelle's warmongering nature, the reason why Bevelle believed Sin to be an Aeon (because of the Fayth the scouts discovered on Mt. Gagazet), the status of village infrastructure after Sin's coming (mentioning how the people live in constant fear and how towns don't get very big), and the effects that followed Yuna bringing the Eternal Calm.


 * The places where we have some overlap in material are really unavoidable, I think, and both sections taste different to me. "The Beginning" and "The Eternal Calm" feel more personable and oriented toward geography and Spira's citizens, while "Sin, Yevon and the Spiral of Death" feels more concept-related.

It was originally felt that the inclusion of this backstory info on the Spira page was necessary to any discussion of the locations in Spira, because it's one thing to say "Kilika was attacked by Sin etc." and another to know what Sin is and to understand its significance in Spira, but now that you bring it up, I'm thinking that this might be part of the reason, as you've said. Theoretically, we could just link to the Mythology page before getting into the info on locations (something like "For information on the history of Spira, see Mythology of Final Fantasy X"). That is what we insist on doing concerning blitzball and the religion, so -- all personal feelings aside -- that is the fair thing to do.

I'd hate to see that backstory information go, but I had felt like it was going to result in a problem at some point and my personal feelings about its presence aren't as important as the integrity of the page's purpose. When it really comes down to it, those sections aren't as necessary as we've thought them to be in the past, and it is probably one of the main reasons for this problem. I'd sooner lose it than to see this sort of thing come up again, to be honest, and it will come again, I believe, and it does bring up an issue of consistency among the location pages that needs to be addressed. For the sake of ensuring that the purpose of this page be understood, it may be that we'll have to sacrifice the "Spira" name for "Locations of Final Fantasy X" as well.

In the event that these measures have to be taken, I don't see think there will be any reason for the main body and spirit of the work that's been achieved here (what's in the location sections) to be altered, and I vehemently oppose any suggestions that this page be turned into a FFX and X-2 navigation page as has been suggested, seeing as how we've got a navbox for that already. Thoughts? Ryu Kaze 10:10, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've taken the initiative and drafted the changes that have been suggested. You may see them here: Proposed changes to Mythology of Final Fantasy X, and Proposed changes to Spira (Final Fantasy X). Please take the time to check the edit histories. Flooch 10:42, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't have enough time right now to examine the articles in detail but the apparent shift of backstory from Spira to Mythology looks promising. I mainly wanted to throw in the suggestion of moving the backstory from the Spira article to a new History of Spira article, therefore removing the need to modify Mythology. Yesno? >Gamemaker 14:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I have no objections to that, if the proposed change to Mythology is seen as inappropriate or too lengthy. (The revised word count is several hundred words more than the original.) Flooch 14:42, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think Mythology's backstory explanation is better than my own, but whatever you guys decide will be fine in the end.PiccoloNamek 17:41, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think there's really a need for a new History of... page since Mythology covers all of it already. I also don't think it'll be necessary to change the wording that greatly. All we've got to do is move the "Sin, Yevon, and the spiral of death" section up under "Spira," label it "The history of Spira" and move the "Eternal Calm" section up under it labeled "Spira in the present day" (slightly rewording it too).


 * The "Sin, Yevon, and the spiral of death" section was also written such that its wording and style meshes with the rest of the article, and the short "Eternal Calm" section can easily be reworded to likewise fit (which I've gone ahead and done in the example to follow). Like PN, I also think it's worded a tad bit better on the whole. Here's what I'm proposing, just to be clear: Another proposal for the Mythology page.


 * By the way, I think that the proposed changes to the Spira page are good, Flooch, but I still think we should maybe change the name to "List of Final Fantasy X locations" to nip the issues that were brought up recently in the bud for good. Ryu Kaze 17:53, 11 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Your proposal is better, Ryu. I'm happy either way regarding the page name change. And thanks, PiccoloNamek. *respect* :) Flooch 00:50, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I also agree with the proposed changes by Ryu.Nnfolz 15:02, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, if we're all (including Nnfolz) agreeing, then that's a good sign. Ryu Kaze 16:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I take it that most everyone's in agreement at this point? If so, I'll go ahead with putting this in operation in the next 24 hours. Ryu Kaze 03:17, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Whatever. :PPiccoloNamek 03:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Ryu, here's the latest version of the Spira proposal to reflect contributions up until 10:21, 14 March 2006 (43646271). Flooch 04:24, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Flooch: Alright, cool. Thanks for doing that, Flooch. I've been doing the same with my Mythology sandbox.

PN: "Whatever" with a ":P." That's a good sign. I think. XD

By the way, unless anyone has an objection, we'll keep the "Spira" title for now and see if that's going to work out okay. Over on the Wikiproject page, Hibana pointed out that most people would search for this list under "Spira," which is what Wikipedia's notability standards would suggest entitling it (that which most people would use to search for it). I'll get the other changes underway later on today if everyone still seems to be good with what we've got. I want to give anyone who hasn't spoken yet a few more hours since it's just now 7:03 AM on the east coast in the US (I'm guessing most people here are from the US). Ryu Kaze 12:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, err, whoops, I've just made the change. Well if anyone still has issues with it I'm sure we'll hear from them soon. Flooch 13:08, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


 * XD I guess so. Ah well, no biggie, probably. Ryu Kaze 13:45, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Concerning the Peer Review
Do we want to leave it up longer, or is it felt that it's no longer needed? We did actually get a good suggestion or two out of it from Nifboy, so it may not be a bad idea to let it see if we get any more comments before its two week run (assuming it gets no more comments) is up. On the other hand, I'm not sure if it really needs any more tweaking at this point. There's not a lot we can add at this point, anyway. We'd have to interview Nomura, Nojima, and Kitase ourselves to be able to add anything else (like why certain places are certain ways) probably. Hm... unless it's in the Ultimania Omega at all. I'll have to look through there and see if I can find something. I seem to remember a section mentioning ideas that they didn't implement. Ryu Kaze 12:00, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think we need it anymore since all the issues have already been adressed.Nnfolz 22:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Have you viewed the Beyond Final Fantasy X DVD? (It shipped with the european version of FFX - not sure about other territories though) There might be some relevent information to be gleaned from the interviews it contains. >Gamemaker 12:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I actually don't have that, no. Anyone else got it?


 * I'll go ahead and take down the Peer Review if everyone's in agreement on that, by the way. Ryu Kaze 03:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Japanese names
Are they necessary? Flooch 07:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)


 * We use them on most of the other list pages (character and location; see List of Final Fantasy X characters and List of Final Fantasy VII locations for examples). And they are something that a lot of readers find interesting. Also, I've gone through all of the Final Fantasy X pages to make sure there aren't any broken links as a result. Ryu Kaze 13:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply Ryu. What I meant was: would it be better to put the Japanese text in the sections rather than the headings (kinda like how they're done in the two example you gave)? At least one other person has stated (in the edit history) that it makes the TOC box a bit ugly... ~ Flooch 11:53, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, I've been bold and did those changes. If you disagree with them feel free to revert. ~ Flooch 14:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I do feel inclined to revert them, admittedly, as the location links for 16 different FFX and X-2 pages are now broken, but I guess it's my own fault, really. I'm going to leave them as you've done it, but I'm going to go through and add the little "Japanese:" mark in front of each of them, and I'll take the responsibility of fixing all of the broken links. Ryu Kaze 14:38, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * By the way, I do think your way looks better. Ryu Kaze 14:42, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * It also allows me to put in the pronunciations of the location names. Ryu Kaze 15:03, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
 * Ouch. I didn't realise they were being linked. I'll help ya. ~ Flooch 15:23, 13 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your help. I think we got them all. Ryu Kaze 15:57, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

There is no mention of the fact that FFX has no World Map
Why? It's one of the most notable parts of Spira. Crazyswordsman 04:50, 8 May 2006 (UTC)


 * they mention it on the Final Fantasy X main page... -Xornok 13:18, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Mythology of Final Fantasy X and the Spira article
==>centralised the discussion at WPFF Talk -- CHANLORD [T]/[C] 04:38, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm going to go ahead with carrying out the previously discussed article relocations. There's going to be a lot of links to fix (see them here and here), so if anyone feels generous, please help me out with that. Ryu Kaze 12:10, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Alright, I've finished repairing all the links. We're good to go from here on out. Ryu Kaze 15:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it time for FA on this one?
I dunno, but I saw that this was blown out of the water in the original FA nomination in March. It looks kinda ready to me. Think you should give it a look and go for it one more time? Especially since both FFX and FFX-2 are both now Featured.
 * Unfortunately, it won't stand a chance; it's an in-universe article. &mdash; Deckill e r 03:27, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I love the article but it's entirely in-universe and wouldn't have a snowbell's chance in Gulug of making it through FA. Ryu Kaze 16:00, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Really ? Weird! What reasoning do they give ? Not important enough ? Renmiri 18:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I miss the old title (Mythology) :( Renmiri 18:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Why WAS the old title changed to an in-universe (against Wikipedia policy) title, anyway? &mdash; Deckill e r 21:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't remember all the specifics, really. Do you think we're going to need to change it again? That's such a pain in the ass because of broken links. Ryu Kaze 02:13, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Nah, since this article should never go close to FAC anyway. &mdash; Deckill e r 02:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The Reason Behind the Final Aeon
As it is, right now, in the article:

(...) Further still, Yu Yevon merging with a Final Aeon would sever the psychic bond between the summoner and the aeon, resulting in a psychic backlash that would kill the Summoner who had just defeated Sin. (...)

While it's stated several times that the Summoner dies after invoking his/her Final Aeon, it's not really explained how (unless it's written in the Ultimania; in that case, THE DIRECT QUOTATION [COMPLETE WITH PAGE NUMBER AND TRANSCRIPT] IS REQUIRED FOR VALIDATION.).

There's no mention whatsoever about a "psychic backlash". This is Original Research and goes against Wikipedia's standards

In reality, the reason behind the summoner's demise is perhaps too obvious that it goes unnoticed. The power of a Final Aeon is too great. When used to defeat the previous Final Aeon (that is, the one currently made into Sin), it succeeds only to be immediately possessed in the aftermath. Pitted against this Final Aeon, the "standard" Aeons (the ones acquired through the Pilgrimage) are unable to stand a chance and are defeated one by one until the Summoner is left defenseless (many taking a single Guardian, which is lost in exchange for becoming the fayth of the Final Aeon).

Long story short, the Summoner dies because he/she has his'/her's most powerful asset stolen and used against him/her. It is also why the standard Aeons continue to exist (only being vanquished after Braska's Final Aeon is destroyed and deliberately allowing themselves to be possessed by Yu Yevon, insisting on it in fact), as their defeat merely results in them dissolving into pyreflies. Vanquishing them while possessed by Yu Yevon destroys them permanently, as it's shown that Zaon's fayth stone is powerless when Yuna finally reaches Zanarkand (since Zaon was the second Sin, vanquished long ago).

Indeed, this might be a interpretation but unless it's written black and white in the Ultimania, so is the whole story about a psychic backlash. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.29.207.190 (talk) 05:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

Pyreflies & Hitodama
I'd say pyreflies are based on, inspired by, or total rip-offs of the hitodama (Will o' the Wisp)... Someone could check up on the hitodama page and drop a foot-note about their (over)apparant likeness in the pyreflies section of the main article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.228.148.72 (talk) 00:57, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

Pyreflies & Hitodama
I'd say pyreflies are based on, inspired by, or total rip-offs of the hitodama (Will o' the Wisp)... Someone could check up on the hitodama page and drop a foot-note about their (over)apparant likeness in the pyreflies section of the main article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.228.148.72 (talk) 00:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC).

Hymn of the Fayth translation
Just for the record, I've found an alternate translation on several sites across the internet.

"Pray, saviour Dream, Child of Prayer Forever and ever Bring us peace"

Pstanton 19:10, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Why is this article using reliable secondary sources as external links?
These need to be integrated into the article; they are great secondary sources! They show secondary analysis by scholars, which is huge. If I have time in the future, I will do so. &mdash; Deckiller 11:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Pyreflies, appearing in Kingdom Hearts II?
I have not seen one, nor any examples, can someone elaborate on this —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Igrek312 (talk • contribs) 19:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC).
 * Watch the ending. Specifically the Olympus Coliseum scene with Auron, Hercules, and Megara. ' 09:08, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

They were there as a throwback to Final Fantasy X. Auron was walking back to the underworld and pyreflies were all around him meaning he had been "sent"Kou Nurasaka 15:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Demography
Does anyone know if the Macalania musicians and Tobli have a name for their respective races? Or even if they are seperate races - the musicias seem to be some kind of bird thing, but no one else ever mentions them as seperate, so I don't really know.KrytenKoro 06:23, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I counted the musicians as magical / mythical creatures, like wood spirits or such. Baira is a bird, Pukutak is more like a cat and Donga is a question mark. Tobli's race does have several individuals and they live around Luca, according to Ultimania Renmiri 02:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Gaaahhh
Two GA class articles got merged into this hodgepodge of Spira facts ? Ugh.. I don't even know where to start to fix this :( Renmiri 02:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't even worry about it. It is time to abandon any efforts of trying to create actual, informative, worthwhile Final Fantasy articles (or gaming articles at all, for that matter) at Wikipedia. There are so many regulations and so much red tape, it is simply not worth the time or the effort. There are so many bureaucrats out there who want strip everything down and take away everything we've got. The FF Wiki is where we should be focusing all of our efforts. I know I am.PiccoloNamek 07:15, 26 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Yes, the FF Wiki is a much better collection of FF information. It still has its little quirks, though, such as removing infoboxes from NPC characters and not allowing their Japanese names to be known. — Quin 02:21, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Good article review
This article was promoted to Good status on February 2, 2006, but I have just looked over the page today, one and a half years later, and I think it is no longer worthy of being a Good Article. The article is largely told in an in-universe style, there's no section on the world's reception and criticism, and it has grown too large for only thirty individual references to cover. Can one of you look over the article and review it as soon as possible? That would be nice. Cat&#39;s Tuxedo 22:13, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Creating sub-article?
I came to this page and noticed the length tag up at the top. I examined the article to see what could be done, and I noticed that the mythology section is fairly long. Would people be okay with creating a sub-article called "Mythology of Spira", taking everything from this page and sticking it in the new article, and then just rewriting the section here to make it shorter? The only reason I ask is because I'm unsure how to trim it down into more of a summary. I can make the article and copy and paste the code, but it's the rewrite here that I'm unsure about. Anakinjmt 13:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I think a significant amount of trimming can be done before needing to spin off another article. For example, in the "Aeons and fayth" section, the last paragraph ("Ten aeons... Baaj Temple.") can probably be deleted completely as not entirely necessary and also original research. Axem Titanium 21:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protected
I've currently semi-protected this page for a few hours; generally speaking, maintenance tags should not be removed until they are addressed. Several IP users suddenly showed up, which seems strange. If users feel the tag is inappropriate, feel free to comment here in the meantime. Apologies for any inconvenience. – Luna Santin  (talk) 06:25, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * And three more days; right back to problems, once that expired. – Luna Santin  (talk) 07:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge in Locations in Spira
That article has basically no chance to show its notability based on available reliable sources. It should be transferred whole to the Final Fantasy gaming wiki if they don't already have it, and then trimmed and merged into the Spira article. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 03:27, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Terrible sound
The sound sample used for the "Song of Prayer" is atrocious. Somebody please upload a recording with appropriate quality. 15:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC) White Mage Cid

Al Bhed language
Why is the Al Bhed language here? If one is looking for the Al Bhed language, it would strange to find it here, and if one wants general, contextual information on the fictional world of FFX, the Al Bhed language would be peripheral and unnecessary. In both cases, its placement is awkward and unfounded. This awkwardness is highlighted by its section header -- "Languages of Final Fantasy X". There are no other languages in the game besides "Spiran," which is simply English (or Japanese), so that header seems to me like manufactured legitimacy.

The Al Bhed language is a notable feature of FFX however you look at it. It is encountered prominently in normal gameplay, such as the Baaj temple scene at the start of the game and the airship scenes near the end of the game. It is also discussed very often online where FFX is discussed, which, while not a proof of notability, is at least a proof that Wikipedia's audience considers this something worth knowing about. As for notability, it is mentioned in at least one journal that I know of offhand, and I would be surprised if it were not mentioned in other edited journalistic game publications.

Basically, I think the Al Bhed language does not fit in this article or any other existing article on FFX, and that it should either not appear anywhere or have its own article. Furthermore, I think it would be more appropriate that it have an article, for the reasons mentioned. I will be happy to make such an article myself, from scratch, with sufficient sourcing and length, and I will do so if no objections are raised. 74.39.78.216 (talk) 13:14, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * It looks like the "Languages" section was the result of a poorly integrated merge from a former article on the Al Bhed language. I've sloppily integrated it into the section on the Al Bhed people (and removed a good deal of game guide-level detail) but you're welcome to expand on it encyclopedically since you seem interested. However, I believe that the discussion on the language DOES belong in this article because it is about Spira as a whole and goes into detail about all the relevant aspects, including the language of its peoples. On the other hand, an article devoted solely to the Al Bhed language would most likely not be sustainable, I'd ask you to make all your contributions here, if possible. Axem Titanium (talk) 15:02, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Merge to Final Fantasy X
I am considering merging this article to Final Fantasy X. There has been a discussion taking place at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Square Enix. Deckiller suggested that Spira should be merged with the FFX article. Does anyone have comments or objections in this case? Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:21, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

No discussion is taking place, so I am going to remove the merge tags. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:50, 3 January 2011 (UTC)