Talk:Spirit of St. Louis/Archive 1

Untitled
I'm interested to know why the cowl of the plane is gold in color. When did that happen and why? The plane had a silver cowl (brushed bare aluminum) for transatlantic flight and AFAIK, replicas have stuck with that too.


 * The cowling became golden when the Smithsonian applied a "protective" substance to the metal. They were concerned about oxidization/protecting it.  The substance unfortunately turned the silver colored aluminum golden.  Rather than fix the error, they decided (perhaps after trying to correct it?) that it was best to leave it as it was.  The last time I visited the museum, there was no explanation about why or how this historic error occurred.  It should probably be addressed in Wiki since I too wondered about it for many years.  This info was told to me by a museum director some years ago  Virtualn 15:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)virtualn

I've removed the following from the article because it doesn't fit at present, although it may at a future date as the article grows:


 * ...such as ones at the Minneapolis-Saint Paul International Airport and Lambert-Saint Louis International Airport. The airport also had Lindbergh's original Curtiss JN-4D "Jenny", which miraculously survived a fire in a downtown Minneapolis high-rise in 1982.  It's now at the Cradle of Aviation Museum on Long Island in New York.

Willy Logan 05:02, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I added material -- much of it from Lindbergh's 1953 memoir "The Spirit of St. Louis" -- to explain some of the unique characteristics of the aircraft. I also corrected its fuel load: designed capacity of 425 gallons, actual takeoff capacity 450 gallons. - Vince Crawley, August 7, 2006
 * Thanks for that, it looks good. In particular its good to mention that the plane had no windshield - I hadn't noticed that. -- Solipsist 08:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Aircraft Name
Should this aircraft not be known as the "Ryan NYP" first, and "Spirit of St.Louis" second? --67.191.10.242 01:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
 * No, according to WP:NAME:


 * Convention: Use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things. --Wafulz 01:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Cross- section
I know I've seen a cross section of this aircraft somewhere, and I think it would be a great addition to this article. I cannot remember where I saw it, but I know it exists (if anyone feels like looking for it)RSido 02:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Added the Technical Preparations for the Spirit of St. Louis by Donald Hall in 1927 for the NCAA (currently available from the NASA website). It should help people that want to know the exact details of the airplane. -N.H.

Spirit of St. Louis, the Book. Written by Charles lindberg.
Charles's book

Recently, while browsing through a local used-book store, I stumbled upon a copy of Charles Lindberg's original book of his flight to Paris. In it, it had a trove of specifications and such. The information was as precise as possible, which is understandible, since the author is the original pilot. Over the next few days, I plan to update the page as much as possible to keep this page maintained. Wish me luck! --Loseratlove 03:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The Orteig Prize
The Orteig Prize was offered to the first aviator to fly non-stop from New York City to Paris,however, the Atlantic had been crossed in non-stop flights previously. Although Lindbergh was the first to fly solo from New York to Paris non-stop, he was not the first aviator to complete a transatlantic heavier-than-air aircraft flight. That had been done first in stages by the crew of the NC-4, in May 1919, although their flying boat broke down and had to be repaired before continuing. The NC-4 flights took 19 days to cross the Atlantic Ocean.

The first truly non-stop transatlantic flight was achieved nearly eight years before by two British flyers, John Alcock and Arthur Whitten Brown in a modified Vickers Vimy IV bomber on 14 June-15 June 1919, departing Lester's Field near St. Johns, Newfoundland, and arriving at Clifden, Ireland, (a shorter route than Lindbergh's). A total of 81 people had flown across the Atlantic prior to Lindbergh (questionable). However, his was the first solo, non-stop transatlantic flight.

The fact that the Spirit of St. Louis was used in a solo flight is what makes it unique. Others have the claim of being the first across the Atlantic in a non-stop flight. FWIW Bzuk 02:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC).


 * Just noticed that the Legacy paragraph has the statement (and coincidentally completing the first aerial mainland-to-mainland crossing) which is clearly wrong as Bzuk has stated. For example the LZ-126 crossed from Germany to New Jersey non-stop. Not sure why we have an emphasis on mainland-to-mainland, Lindberg is always been recognised as the first transatlantic solo-flight, does this not belittle the efforts of other fliers because they left from Ireland or England. And is not Long Island an island not the mainland! MilborneOne 20:21, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * MilborneOne- I agree, I was just trying to mollify another editor's constant reversions with a so-so statement but I have now removed the claim entirely as it really was not germane to the main contention that the Spirit completed the NY-Paris flight as a solo non-stop crossing. Thanks for the update. Bzuk 20:30, 15 July 2007 (UTC).


 * I agree that the statement about islands is not the best way to make the point I'm trying to make, and was sloppy. It seems that along with the solo aspect, Lindbergh should be credited with demonstrating the ability to fly non-stop from a major population center to a major population center, rather than from more obscure locations. It seems that this more than prevous attempts demostrated commercial viability of non-stop flights across the Atlantic.  But it's not worth the animosity than the attempt is generating here.  --Kevin Murray 22:50, 15 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Lots of these flights did not go from the mainland of North America to the mainland of Europe. Newfoundland, Ireland, and Great Britain are not part of the mainland. Long Island is close enough to the rest of New York State to be part of the continental mainland, for all practical purposes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.249.92.64 (talk • contribs) 23 MAY 2008 18:22


 * Long Island is close enough to the mainland of New York and Connecticut to be part of the continental mainland for all practical purposes, and especially for aviation purposes. Long Island is close enough to Manhattan that they both connect to New York and New Jersey via highway and railroad bridges and tunnels. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.249.92.64 (talk • contribs) 23 MAY 2008 18:22

Swastika

 * : A later paragraph begins "A swastika was painted on the inside of the nosecone of the Spirit of St. Louis...” Reading this gave me a misleading impression of the extent of Lindbergh’s anti-Semitism and support of the nascient 3rd Reich at the time of his Atlantic flight. A photo of the nosecone’s inside (at the bottom of the page) shows it was a backward-swastika, with the hooks pointing to the left. Lindberg's complicated and ugly set of beliefs didn't bloom publicly until perhaps ten years later.

If others agree, would someone consider changing it to say "A backward swastika (left handed swastika) was painted on the inside of the nosecone of the Spirit of St. Louis..." (I'm not a User so it isn't appropriate for me to.) 18 December 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.24.26.170 (talk) 03:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if the swastika is drawn in only one direction, I believe that the swastika (from Sanskrit svástika ◊Ë‘◊Ë¬€≥ ) is an equilateral cross with its arms bent at right angles, can be in either right-facing (ô¬) or left-facing (ô¬) forms. The swastika can also be drawn as a traditional swastika, but with a second 90° bend in each arm. It has a wikilink to the appropriate Wikipedia article that explains the history of the swastika. FWIW Bzuk (talk) 03:48, 19 December 2007 (UTC).


 * I think the article is currently correct. The swastika was placed there as a good luck charm, as evidenced by the orientation in relation to the names. The swastika in that orientation is good luck, it's the swastika on its side that is a symbol of the nazis.--LWF (talk) 03:53, 19 December 2007 (UTC)


 * For Pete's sake, the Nazi swastika was always a clockwise one, rather than a counter-clockwise one, and before the Nazi era, it had an entirely-different meaning anyway. I have read that in old Germanic languages, it stood for the letter combination "th". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.249.92.64 (talk • contribs) 23 MAY 2008 18:22

It is important to note;the propeller spinner which on it's inside has the names of the builders of the Spirit of St. Louis as well as the American Indian good luck symbol was not used on the Spirit during the Trans-Atlantic flight. The good luck symbol painted in the spinner was not inspired by nor suggested by Lindbergh.Feedor (talk) 20:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC)See Ryan Aeronautical interview by Way Wagner of original Spirit builders(Ryan Aeronautical Library)(San Diego Air and Space Museum)et al.

the backwards/forward thing is mostly nonsense actually. The distinction didn't arise until after World War II. Prior to the rise of the Nazis both forms were used interchangeably, often as good luck charms (as in this case). --86.135.218.177 (talk) 14:23, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Focus
Even though the material being introduced on the books and films made about the Spirit of St. Louis are interesting, this is primarily an article about the aircraft and its history. The associated material is best placed in the story of Lindbergh or in the separate articles on the actor, film and books that resulted from the transatlantic flight. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 11:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC).
 * The two books and the film all directly relate to (and are named for) the aircraft, its history, and especially its very important place in American culture. The limited amount of material I have added to this article could (and probably should) be included in other articles to which it also relates, but I feel strongly that should not come to its exclusion from this SoSL article to which it applies most directly. I can really not think of any other aircraft, ship, train, or other vehicle that is a greater or more universally recognized cultural icon than the Spirit of St. Louis. Even after 81 years, this aircraft is still far more than a "machine" but is instead the living embodiment of a sea change milestone of how aviation as a means of transportation in the United States was viewed and supported. (Centpacrr (talk) 12:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC))
 * Regardless, the amount of material is far too detailed and is more related to the after-market products that resulted. A mention of the aircraft's iconic status with some examples should suffice. After that, the connection with the two flyers, James Stewart and Charles Lindbergh involved is inconsequential, whether two or a second account was published and received an award, is also peripheral to the story of the Spirit. If you wish to develop the history of the aircraft, then the focus should remain on the aircraft, mention its legacy but devoting too much emphasis brings up: Wp:Weight issues. Please consider a revision to cut down the section and incorporate the valuable information into the related articles that are more appropriate to the actual books and film that accompanied this historic aircraft's threading into the public psyche and mythology. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC).
 * I can't say that I ever thought of Lindbergh's two namesake books which represent his detailed personal accounts of the history of his airplane and his flight as being "after-market products", "inconsequential", or "peripheral", but be that as it may, as requested I have deleted the section. (Centpacrr (talk) 13:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC))
 * Please excuse my Baroque allusions, I sometimes speak/write faster than I think. The iconic nature of the Spirit has not escaped me, I dragged my family, kicking and screaming to see a recreation of Lindbergh's cross country air tour, when the EAA replica Spirit stopped in my city. I also made a pilgrimage to the NASM specifically to see the Spirit, which I understand was also at times, visited by Charles Lindbergh himself. One of the tour guides who noticed my reverential gaze, took me aside and explained that he closed the gallery from time to time after hours when CAL visited and let the aviator sit in the cockpit undisturbed. As to the Spirit's legacy, mention has to be made of its status as a piece of Americana with the detail about its connections to popular culture. My sole contention was that the comprehensive nature of the submissions about the books and film that transpired, may be better placed with the specific articles. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 14:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC).
 * As per your suggestion I have restored the section relating it to the "Spirit" as "a piece of Americana with the detail about its connections to popular culture."(Centpacrr (talk) 11:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC))
 * Some ancillary details revised, see above notes for clarification. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 13:46, 13 May 2008 (UTC).

I have to say that Bzuks revision was better and it was probably wrong to remove that text and re-insert another version. The lastest version has again added far more detail about the book and film which should be in the related articles and borders on original research or opinion rather than facts. I would suggest that we revert back to the version as amended by Bzuk and work on improving that. MilborneOne (talk) 11:19, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Tweaked the text to remove some of the extra text that does not relate to the aircraft. MilborneOne (talk) 12:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
 * While the two very brief footnotes relating to key similarities between Stewart and Lindbergh (age and background in military aviation) may not be strictly "pertinent" to the "Spirit of St. Louis" as a physical object or machine, they certainly are central to Stweart's casting in the film and how he and his "co-star" -- the Spirit -- interact with each other in the picture. The real life closeness in the ages, experience, and aviation backgrounds of the two aviators had a significant influence in how the "title character" is developed and portrayed in the film as Lindbergh's "partner" (i.e. "We"), and thereby materially affects how the film represents the plane. As this section of the article discusses the Spirit as it is related to and in popular culture, mentioning these two key relationships between Lindbergh and Stewart becomes neither out of place or irrelevant. (Centpacrr (talk) 07:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC))
 * That's a stretch, put information about the film with the film article. The casting of Stewart had much more to do with his affinity to Lindbergh and not the aircraft with which he was associated. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:29, 15 May 2008 (UTC).
 * I have added the information to the article on the film. I still feel strongly, however, that these two facts have significant relevance to the SoSL article as well for the reasons I stated, although as a concession I have moved them from my principal text to the footnotes. To me knowing about these particular similarities in the backgrounds of Lindbergh and Stewart has a material affect on how I view the film and evaluating Stewart's interaction with his "co-star" -- the Spirit. I find puzzling a philosophy that facts which are relevant to subjects referenced in more than one article can only be included in one article and must be arbitrarily excluded of all others to which they would otherwise apply. The two particular similarities between Lindbergh and Stewart that I included are clearly relevant to both articles in my view, and as such I subscribe to a philosophy of including such facts everywhere that they are relevant rather then arbitrarily excluding them simply because they appear someplace else as well. While others may disagree with me as to the extent of their relevance in the popular culture section of the SoSl article, their inclusion certainly does no harm. FWIW (Centpacrr (talk) 13:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC))
 * No need to make concessions. If there is not consensus, then the information is best presented where it is the most relevant. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 02:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC).

Gallery
There is no need for a gallery of images when the WikiCommmons image gallery is linked. FWiW, the gallery is usually redundant in this case. Bzuk (talk) 02:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC).

Usage of "Airplane" vs "Aircraft"
Thread moved to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft(Centpacrr] (talk) 17:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC))

Intro
The introduction has recently been changed by User:Centpacrr from flown by Charles Lindbergh on the first non-stop solo transatlantic flight from New York to Paris to flown solo by Charles Lindbergh on the first New York to Paris non-stop transatlantic flight I reverted but it has now been changed back by User:Centpacrr to the later version. Is not the fame attached to the flight because it was the first solo non-stop transatlantic crossing not because it was the first non-stop flight from New York to Paris. Did not want to revert it again without some other opinions on the matter. Just to quote the Smithsonian Milestone of Flight http://www.nasm.si.edu/exhibitions/GAL100/stlouis.html "Milestone: First Nonstop Solo Transatlantic Flight" which is what the article said before! MilborneOne (talk) 18:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The Orteig Prize was for the first "non-stop flight from New York to Paris" whether or not done solo. Lindbergh was the only one to try it solo, but that was incidental to winning the prize. Alcock and Brown flew nonstop across the Atlantic in June, 1919. (Centpacrr (talk) 19:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC))


 * Sorry I refer again to the Smithsonian "First Nonstop Solo Transatlantic Flight" as the milestone achieved or is the Smithsonian wrong? MilborneOne (talk) 19:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * He was the first to fly solo, but the Prize was for a non-stop flight from New York to Paris whether or not it was done solo. So it was the first non-stop flight from New York to Paris which also happened to be done solo, i.e., it was TWO firsts. (Centpacrr (talk) 19:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC))


 * Dont disagree about the prize but his fame (according to Smithsonian) is for the first solo. Perhaps we should change the intro to mention both. MilborneOne (talk) 20:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I have tweaked the intro to add the solo bit after the Orteig Prize. MilborneOne (talk) 20:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)


 * In English it is irritating to have "solo" used twice, it's redundant. One of the "solo"'s should be eliminated.Serkul (talk) 06:23, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

Centpacrr's image
I've removed links to this image. It's a copyright violation, it's poor quality, it's self-promotion, and it doesn't even fit the sentence in which it is used. To wit, the sentence discusses a replica made from a B-1. Centpacrr's image is a photoshopped image of Lindberg's plane. It would be far more appropriate to include not an image of the actual plane (no matter how re-worked), but rather, and image of a real B-1 from which the replica discussed was made. Rklawton (talk) 20:14, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The page includes both the original Ryan Company publicity image and the digital "watercolor" illustration. G-AUIX, on the other hand, has nothing whatever to do with Lindbergh. (Centpacrr (talk) 20:39, 5 February 2009 (UTC))
 * The page contains two copyright violations. The section in which the image was linked was about replicas, and the particular sentence was about what replicas were made from.  Your image was not about this - it was about the original.  The image I found was specifically about the type of plane from which the replica noted in the sentence was made.  Rklawton (talk) 20:48, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I have already responded on the SoSL talk page. I do not, however, consider "If I were you, however, I'd drop the matter entirely." or your image is "crap" and "self promotion" to be much of a a civil invitation. If you review the histories of the SoSL and Lindbergh articles you will find that I have made more than 620 edits and contributions to these articles over the past year including providing many images if unique articles of Linberghiana from my collections. There was no image at all linked to this page until I linked them less than an hour ago. If you think that the image of G-AUIX has a greater connection to Lindbergh than his own B-1, then please make your case instead of just continuing to revert the original link and substituting an otherwise irrelevant one. (Centpacrr (talk) 20:57, 5 February 2009 (UTC))
 * Your link shows what the aircraft was converted to. We already have images of this.  My link shows what the aircraft was converted *from*.  And this was the point of the sentence.  That a replica was created *from* a B-1.  The article has no images of what a B-1 looks like, so the image link I provided does a lot of good.  Your previous contribution are irrelevant in this matter.  Rklawton (talk) 21:03, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, I see your point about the Lindberg image being that of a B-1. However, it's still a copyvio - and self-promotion.  Whereas the link I provided is not a copyvio - and is still of a B-1.
 * I can see room here for compromise, though. Just provide a link to the image's authorized source rather than to your own web page.  Rklawton (talk) 21:09, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Whatever is decided, please don't put the so-called 'watercolor' image up again. That one really sucked the life out of the far better, digitally refurbished monochrome image. Binksternet (talk) 21:28, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * My image is an original Ryan Co. publicity photograph of Lindbergh picking up the new B-1 the company gave him at the Ryan factory in San Diego, CA, in 1928. The source is an original period print of a Ryan Co. publicity image marked as being provided free to the press for reproduction at will and with no claim of copyright. I personally scanned the print which is a part of my large personal collection of Lindberghiana. I do not see how stating that on the page as being the source, however, is self promotion. The sources given for the two photographs on the page to which you have linked are the "John Hopton collection" and an otherwise unidentified "my own collection" but neither contains any copyright or original source information. As my image is of an original, unconverted B-1 which also has a direct connection to Lindbergh himself, I think it is a more appropriate illustration of what the replica was created from than an Australian registered B-1 that may well have already been modified for long distance flight. (Centpacrr (talk) 21:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC))
 * I've been "kind" to refer to your efforts to circumvent copyright law by posting a self-created derivative work as "self-promotion". Second, all images used on Wikipedia must either be "fair use" or be free for commercial use.  There is no indication that the image in question is available for commercial use, and it's uploading on Wikipedia has already been challenged.  Publicity images are typically "fair use", not copyright-free.  And no, that doesn't mean that using that image in this article constitutes "fair use".  Rklawton (talk) 22:04, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I have removed the digital watercolor from the image page and left only the publicity photo. As it is no longer posted as a Wikipedia image file, however, but is instead now on an external linked page (as are the photos on the page you have linked which themselves include no copyright or original source information), the only question then is if either page is to be left linked, then which one is more relevant to illustrate what an unmodified Ryan B-1 looked like. I say the logical answer to that is Lindbergh's factory condition B-1, not the Australian one. If you disagree, then please make your case on those grounds as the others have been resolved and are now moot. (Centpacrr (talk) 22:33, 5 February 2009 (UTC))


 * Without prejudice to the argument about relevance, just thought I would mention that images from the edcoates collection have been deleted from wikipedia for copyright problems and the provenance of the G-AUIX image is not clear. So it is not acceptable as an external link (which should not be in the middle of the text anyhow) and probably would be deleted if uploaded to wikipedia or commons. MilborneOne (talk) 22:37, 5 February 2009 (UTC)