Talk:Sprite (computer graphics)/Archive 1

Inaccurate
This page is woefully technically inaccurate. What good accurate information there is here is entirely irrelevant to the subject at hand. In my opinion, this page needs split and completely rewritten. If it has not improved by the time I return from my holidays, my friend and I will prepare a more encyclopaedic entry, with real, relevant, technically sound information and proper references. --John Lunney 23:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Sigh. This is still one of the most inaccurate articles on Wikipedia. --John Lunney 18:04, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Moved back to Sprite (computer graphics), because (computer science) is unnecessarily broad and even somewhat inaccurate. Fredrik | talk 20:08, 19 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Isn't "Billboarding" the correct term for a 2-D image that always faces the viewer in a 3-D environment? --70.19.225.70 18:30, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC) I'm sure there are several terms used to describe the same technique.
 * Sprite is the term used in most rendering engine API's that I've used. It is also the term used by Special effects guys in Hollywood and at WETA. --Plowboylifestyle 20:45, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I think the term 3D Sprite is used to describe drawing an object in a 3D world using a 2D bitmap. Often, Z-buffering is used to make sure that the renderer only draws the parts of the sprite not obscured by an object in front. Sometimes, the 3D sprite has a constant Z-depth, and sometimes, a Z-buffer is added to the bitmap to give it some extra Z-depth. I have also seen the terms Z-Sprite or even Zprite used for 3D sprites. See also 2.5D Ae-a 00:48, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * Since hardware sprites are no longer widespread use, I think it's safe to say that the term has been generalized to the 3D usage, that being said, it seems like another section, specifically covering billboarding and z-sprites is a good idea. But I think its safe for now to keep it all under the sprite umbrella. Splitting it up would be too technical for Wikipedia and there isn't really that much more to cover. Why don't you write it? --Plowboylifestyle 02:41, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Anyone up for changing the windwalker image? I know sprite is generalized but when I think of sprites I think of Super Mario, Pacman, Earthbound, et cetera. So I feel the windwalker would be confusing, since it does have 3d images as the caption says. I'm asking becuase the windwalker example is valid, but a pre-SNES/Sega example would represent the idea better. If no one objects in a couple weeks or so, and I remember I'm going to change the image. Capi crimm 22:41, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Don't change it.
It's valid and current. Sprites are now used mostly as a 3D Optimization, this has been the case since ray casting in Wolfenstien 3D, and I spent a lot of time getting that image because it has two examples where the sprite illusion is revealed. Why not add an image in the relevant section, like the hardware sprite section.Plowboylifestyle 16:00, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Sure, but it doesn't seem very relevant to the main topic at all. It's perfectly valid, but the long captions on the pictures look ugly, and the image isn't really appropirate for the top of the page. It's really unnessecary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.153.128.54 (talk • contribs) 02:45, 14 April 2006

Got an engineering degree?
Definitions as seen here are exactly why Wikipedia is getting a bad name. May I suggest that any person under 40 without an engineering degree abstain from adding entries here? Clearly these young programmers and gamers don't have a clue. Just because a lot of semi-ignorant people misuse the term now doesn't make a sprite a software thing or any moving object on screen. It's dedicated hardware. The term was misappropriated by programmers and gamers would didn't know any better. Resist becoming part of the Wikipedia credibility problem.


 * Simply put the term has migrated to a broader meaning. I went from programming sprite hardware to designing 3D rendering engines over the course of 25 years. So maybe I have some credability. Maybe you think I need a degree and then I'll really know what I'm talking about! Well until I get that read this:
 * Sprites were originally invented as a method of quickly compositing several images together in two-dimensional video games using special hardware. As computer performance improved, this optimization became unnecessary and the term evolved to refer specifically to the two dimensional images themselves that were integrated into a scene. That is, figures generated by either custom hardware or by software alone were all referred to as sprites. As three-dimensional graphics became more prevalent, the term was used to describe a technique whereby flat images are seamlessly integrated into complicated three-dimensional scenes.
 * Seems like that makes it pretty clear. Emphasis on the word evolved. And the section on hardware sprites also makes it clear. The fact is that the term sprite is in common usage as a bitmap and a 3D object, talk for example to the guys at WETA digital or read the specs of many 3D rendering platforms or check out some of the Sprite Comics. It is important that Wikipedia try to use concensus to keep track, as language evolves. Especially in technology. It's also important that we don't try to prescribe how people communicate and instead facilitate communication that's already happening. Even so you should learn to sign your comments please. Plowboylifestyle 21:17, 4 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Uses of the word sprite in technical writing where it does not refer to the hardware relic:
 * Feathering a mask for anti-aliased sprites
 * Blitting and sprites
 * Programming assignments #3 and #4 - 3D Video Game
 * CG 201 2D Raster Graphics and Animation (3 Cr.)
 * LOD-sprite technique for accelerated terrain rendering
 * Controlled animation of video sprites
 * These are academic abstracts, programming tutorials. There not kids talking about games. The fact is that the vast majority of pages you read when you google the word sprite are talking about bitmaps used in games. Not about the dedicated hardware of yor. So is there really a debate here given the amount of time the artical spends on hardware sprites? Plowboylifestyle 03:25, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Time to open a huge huge can of worms
OK. What constitutes fair use of commercial sprites? Like characters from NES, SNES and Game Boy Advance games? Is the distribution of sprite sheets of commerical sprites illegal? It is rather obvious that the people ripping them are using technically illegal software/methods to do it. On the other hand, I've never ever heard of anyone being sued for using sprites. Has anyone ever been? I would think the game companies would like it, because it helps generate a community of people dedicated to their characers whom they are trying to sell new 3D games about.

This is exactly the "haze of legal doubt" that the creative commons people are talking about. Right now, I'm not only using sprites, I'm animating them in Macromedia Flash to make sprite cartoons. I'm not trying to sell these, just release them on Newgrounds so I don't much care about the legality issues, but it would be nice to know.

All of this is relevent to wikipedia for two reasons:
 * People who look up this article may be curious about this/these question(s)
 * It might be a good idea to have a sprite sheet in the article as an example/visual aid.

Can somebody help me out on this? --Nerd42 03:52, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I have zero legal knowledge about this. But I'd have to say that I don't think that the extraction of sprite sheets is an illegal process. There is nothing illegal about hacking something that you bought. You can do whatever you want to a game you own, its distributing that is the problem. That being said, I think one sprite sheet seems like fair use. Personally I'd like to see screenshots and sprite sheets next to one another. Hopefully Secret of Monkey Island. Plowboylifestyle 05:42, 19 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I was thinking Mario from Super Mario World -- it's simple, people will recognize it and seeing a bunch of different marios in each position will instantly make it clear to any moron what is going on. Monkey Island won't get recognized as quickly, and that goes for any non-commercial sprites anybody wants to use as images in this article.
 * Hmm ... isn't it true that you are not allowed to re-sell Nintendo games without some kind of retail liscense from them? If I am correct in that, then you will have to be a certain age to have owned an original (legal) cartridge. As I understood it, to distribute the roms is illegal, to download roms of cartridges you don't own legally is illegal, to then hack/extract/rip stuff from games you don't own is illegal and to distribute the results of said endeavours for free is illegal because with each action you violate Nintendo's copyright on the software and images. So, one could argue that the entire sprite cartoon community/culture is organized crime. The only thing protecting it, as I've heard, is some kind of Online Privacy Act or other that prevents law enforcement from prosecuting any of these people. If any of this is incorrect, somebody inform me. Given Nintendo's censorchip polities and track record of not delivering on their service guarantees, said activities are arguably morally justifiable. Rspecially when one considers that they aren't making cartridges anymore, thus there are only so many original cartridges left in the world, a given number of these are destroyed or cease to function every year and this will eventually result in there being no more original games. The emulation community has taken it upon themselves to preserve this "video game history" you might say, and have also been responsible for doing Japanese to English translations - many of which are much better than the companies, probably because of the afore-mentioned censorship policies. --Nerd42

"The entire sprite cartoon community/culture is organized crime." I think your being a little over dramatic. Grow a pair.

Actually, I think you'll find that the End user agreement would have a clause about editing/extracting game resources.


 * Technically, if you create a sheet, comic, or flash cartoon using these sprites then you are effectively creating a derivative work - without the original copyright owner's approval, distributing derivative works is illegal. You can read a faq about it. Something like a video or screenshot is not illegal because you are simply displaying a game, not modifying it. I think that using a sprite sheet for the purposes of an encyclopedic article would qualify as fair use (maybe), but I'm concerned that people reading this article and seeing it displayed would take it as proof that making and distributing these things is free to do (not understanding the difference between using a sprite sheet as an instructional aid, and using one to make a sprite comic). Unless there is a disclaimer stating the legality of using sprite sheets, I don't think Wikipedia should display or link to one. --SeanHoward 18:39, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Hardware Sprites
Lets not confuse hardware sprites with billboarding and affine texture mapping. There is a difference between a sprite engine and modern graphics accelerators and texture mapping. I think people are missing that point here. There is still a lot of stuff in the hardware section that doesn't belong. Plowboylifestyle 16:01, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Fragment/Pixel Blending and Depth-Sorts
In the Wind Waker box on the right side of this page; the incorrect occlusion of the flower and the grass is noted as being an artifact of the flower's existance as a sprite. The flower is actually a full 3D object just the same as the cliff behind or the character Link. The incorrect occlusion here stems from an optimisation implemented in many 3D engines today. For correct rendering results all of the transparent, blended or masked polygons must be rendered in a back to front order and in such a way as they do not intersect as par the painter's algorithm (intersecting polygons need to be split into non-intersecting sub-polygons). Dynamic sorting and splitting of individual polygons is an irksome and expensive task so most modern 3D engines cheat a little by grouping such polygons into small bunches (for example, each grass object's constituent polygons may be joined into one group, as with the flowers; although how this is done is anything but standard and depends competly on the design of the particular engine). These groups are then sorted in a back to front order according to their smallest enclosing sphere/cuboid or some similar means and then the groups are drawn in a back to front order. While this may accelerate the rendering process it does result in erroneous results when there is no obvious "group level" order such as the two bunches of grass and flower pictured (the bounding volumes most probably intersect in this example). Generally with some artistic adjustment of groupings and object design these errors can be kept to permissible bounds though.

Classification of the flower object or grass objects as sprites is downright erroneous, whatever the argument about the bill-board explosion.

While I believe the definition of a sprite presented here which appears in summary to be "any polygon 2D or 3D which is apparently planar", to be highly dubious, since the objects generally agreed to be "not sprites" are in turn made of planar polygons; this fallacy has begun to embed itself so far into culture as to infuence the naming of such objects in such reputable APIs as OpenGL and DirectX. With the recent addition of "point sprites". These "point sprites" as defined by both APIs however have a few things in common that may help disambiguate the modern useage of the term "sprite", in their parliance a "point sprite" is a planar polygon that ALWAYS FACES THE SCREEN OR PROJECTION SURFACE, DOES NOT HAVE A SPECIFIC ORIENTATION UPON THAT PLANE and HAS FOUR SIDES FORMING AN ORTHOGRAPHIC RECTANGLE BOTH BEFORE AND AFTER PROJECTION. The only two spacial properties that a point sprite possesses are a point coorinate specifying its central origin upon the plane of projection and a size. As a "point sprite" appears to be differentiated from a regular sprite as having a point of origin I propose the the above upper case text as a formal disambiguation of sprites from polygons so far as the field of computer graphics is concerned.

213.202.168.128 23:22, 11 March 2006 (UTC) Alan

Particle Graphics
Would the Wind Waker images on this page also constitute decent depictions of a stylized particle system? Is that worth mentioning in this article? Similarly, is it worth mentioning in the particle system article that particles are often rendered as sprites? Do I have my facts right that textured billboarded quads are, more or less, sprites? Food for thought. 129.61.46.16 14:55, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Sprites and BOBs
In regard to the Amiga, sprites and BOBs are different things. Sprites are closer to the hardware and move faster, whereas BOBs allow greater variety in size and colours. J I P | Talk 13:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd second that -- also, BOB in Amigaland stands for Bitmap Object Block, and was not a replacement for but a complement to the MOB (sprite) hardware -- BOBs are more like parallax background layers as I understand it (not an Amiga programmer however) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.168.205.250 (talk • contribs) 15:03, 24 August 2006

"Anisotropic zoom"
I'm pretty sure I know what the intended meaning is in this article's table with regards to "anisotropic zoom" (mode-7 effects like those seen in Pilotwings), but that term fails the google test... "anisotropic zoom" only yields about 2 results -- this article, and some other page, so perhaps a more descriptive term is in order. Also I notice NES's entry for anisotropic zoom has it as -2, -1, +1, +2... did the NES's hardware really have sprite scaling effects (even if limited ones compared to SNES's Mode 7)? I can't think of any games for the NES that scaled sprites in any way, and I've played a -lot- in my lifetime. --67.183.186.73 06:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Some sprites have been scaled all the time, because scaling was just to save memory. Better name would be good: Zoom is common and affine transformation also, but both are wrong in this case. Flip and mirror are special cases of zoom with negative sign, this treatment would lead to robust and efficient hardware, but this treatment cannot be found in the original documentation. Mode 7 is something different, because you could program each line independentlyArnero 21:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

"Sprite culture" needs cleanup
It has glimmers of accuracy (I especially like how the oft-forgotten hoaxing gets a mention), but... ugh. --Andrusi 15:29, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The whole article... ugh. --John Lunney 02:40, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Move to 3D
This is a subject that interested me greatly and decided to add as accurate an entry as possible to the article. Please inform me if you object to its contents. -TheHande 16:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the article focuses way too much on the use of sprites as objects parallel to the camera in 3d scenes ("Billboarding"). The most common meaning of (software) sprite would be in my experience "a 2d object (image or animation) that moves/animates seamlessly above the background". Now you can render 3d things before or after drawing it, but that's not that relevant. 2d graphics are not a thing of the past, even your mouse cursor that you use to view this page is probably a sprite :) --Helixdq 17:01, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Actual Sprite
Shouldn't there be an actual sprite in the article, or a sprite sheet. I mean like, 2D link or a custom made sprite? I'm willing to make one, even though it may be horrible, it would spruce the article up a little bit with an actual sprite example. If someone can find a sprite willing to give up a single sprite for the article (I know some good ones myself), it would be great! - ~VNinja~ P.S. I've decided to aquire a custom sprite from a spriter I know and put it in the page, if anybody has any arguments, let's talk here.

"Sprite" eymology
Is there any information on the etymology of "sprite" in this context? Ziiv 08:32, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I came to this page trying to find out how they came up with the term sprite. Anyone have any insight? My programmer buddies and I were making jokes about a can of Sprite soda and none of us knew what the heck a sprite was. 76.214.7.81 (talk) 00:08, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:SpriteExampleRevealed.jpg
Image:SpriteExampleRevealed.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:SpriteExamplefromZeldaWindwalker.jpg
Image:SpriteExamplefromZeldaWindwalker.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

History?
This article claims the first system to support sprites was the Elektor TV, which the  Elektor article states was launched in 1979. However, the Atari 8-bitters also had sprites, and were launched in 1978. I doubt this claim, and will do so until I see specific dates attached to it. Maury (talk) 21:34, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the potential first use of a sprite could be considered the Magnavox Odyessy in 1972. See http://www.pong-story.com/intro.htm. 83.216.149.7 (talk) 01:30, 16 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure hardware sprites were first used on the Atari 400/800 developed by Jay Miner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.26.122.12 (talk • contribs) 06:56, 23 June 2009

Rewrite
In general, I think the article concentrates a little too much on the hardware history of sprites. The sprite concept does not belong to any generation of technology or hardware. I agree that Mario is the archetypal sprite and think his image would be acceptable as fair use.

I'd like to rewrite this page somewhat. I'd like to start with a very general definition of a sprite and then use parts of the existing text to describe their history and development. Also an explanation of current uses for sprites and a description of sprite sheets.

I would also like to add -

An animated GIF showing a sprite (probably Mario). An animated GIF to illustrate rotoscoping (probably a character from Doom, I think this is acceptable fair use). A picture of a particle system (anyone have suggestion for an archetypal particle system?).

Does anyone have any objections to these ideas? 83.216.149.7 (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.216.149.7 (talk) 15:45, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

On the Web
I added a paragraph about use of sprites on the Web -- this is a pretty common technique for Web designers which can really speed up the apparent load time of a Web page. I linked to an article about the technique on A List Apart. --ESP (talk) 03:31, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
 * No such thing
 * Because sprite is a moving bitmap object with transparency.
 * 80.249.84.110 (talk) 06:41, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Missing from the list: Saturn and Dreamcast
These machines were designed from the ground up to push sprites! Especially the Saturn. I know I have hardware docs somewhere. I've never edited a table before, though. :| Utils (talk) 03:45, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know, Saturn, unlike PSX, actually has traditional hardware sprites. Dreamcast doesn't. NEC PC-FX would also qualify for inclusion. 80.249.84.110 (talk) 06:56, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Merger discussion
I'm not sure who initially suggested merging Sprite sheet into this article, but I would support this move. SharkD  Talk  05:04, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Introduction
I tried my hand at revision the initial overview to reflect what a sprite originally meant and to make clearer its function (a graphical object that can be moved independent of the main screen data without changing the latter), and also to add earlier and better-known examples of sprite graphics than the The Elektor TV Games Computer, which followed the famous Atari VCS. MrNeutronSF (talk) 02:29, 2 November 2010 (UTC)