Talk:Spuyten Duyvil Creek

Pronunciation
How's this pronounced? It's from Dutch originally and I think in Dutch it would be something like "spy-ten dye-vl", but I'm curious as to what the modern US pronunciation is.

Possibly wouldn't hurt to be on the article if someone does know... Brickie (talk) 11:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I live in the neighborhood and that is how it is pronounced, though the "vl" is more "vil" or "vul".

I have a question on the names meaning in Dutch. It often gets translated as Devil's Spate or sometimes Spitting or Spinning Devil rather than Devil's Spout. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.44.184.49 (talk) 18:54, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Background info on Harlem River Ship Canal
((How long is the canal?))

Background info on Harlem River Ship Canal:


 * Duration of Project:

From: HISTORIC AMERICAN ENGINEERING RECORD on the HENRY HUDSON PARKWAY, HAER No. NY-334

The parkway then continued on to the Harlem River Ship Canal, which had been developed in 1826 as a shipping canal that ran northwards through the Harlem River and westward through Spuyten Duyvil Creek.186 At the time, the Harlem was little more than a stream, and the creek was fairly shallow. Ultimately, the Harlem River Ship Canal took 112 years to complete, in part due to legal wrangling with property owners.187 The first phase of canal construction ended in 1895, but the project took nearly forty years more, finally reaching completion in 1938 when it officially opened. The canal allowed large freighters to bypass lower Manhattan completely on their way to and from the Atlantic Ocean, cutting 20 miles off their journey time.188

187 For example, the Johnson Foundry, which had helped produce artillery for the North during the Civil War and had withstood earlier plans for demolition, finally closed in 1923 by order of the Supreme Court of New York State. 188 Gary Hermalyn, “The Harlem River Ship Canal,” Bronx County Historical Society 20, no. 1 (1983): 20.

http://www.nymtc.org/files/Henry%20Hudson%20Parkway/HHP_Final.pdf


 * Corroboration of date the small Bronx peninsula where the Johnson Foundry had been unti 1926 was channeled through in 1937:

Berrian's Point in modern times was known as Spuyten Duyvil Point, Hill, or Neck, and was the site of the earliest and largest industrial complex in the area. Shortly after the midnineteenth century point, Issac Gale Johnson established a foundry "at the base of the bluff, which was expanded as the years have gone by into an extensive plant which has for a number of years supplied a large number of modern and improved projectiles for the guns of the United States Navy. There has thus grown up near the foundry a small village to accommodate the hands who work in the Johnson mill, and it is here that the stores and post-office are located." (Jenkins,1912:p.330). It was for Johnson, who owned extensive properties in the Spuyten Duyvil neighborhood, that the street that runs in part by the western boundary of the project site was named. Maps made in 1868, 1873, and 1892 show the foundry and mill. (Figures 23, 24, and 25). But even more interestingly, the 1873 and 1892 maps show how the Spuyten Duyvil peninsula would be shaved off by the Harlem River Ship Canal which was dug out for the purpose of making a navigable channel between the Hudson and Harlem Rivers. It was opened in 1895. On the 1873 map, the channel right of way lies between the two lines marked "United States Channel Line." On the 1892 map it is indicated by the two red lines. The excavations for the channel took place south of the Johnson complex which survived until 1923. "Although the foundry was condemned in 1923 to make the ship passage more navigable, the abandoned peninsula remained until 1937." (Oublin,1986) •

Dublin, Larry 1986 CREEK TO RIVER: A WALK THROUGH THE PAST. The Riverdale Press. Bronx, NY.

http://s-media.nyc.gov/agencies/lpc/arch_reports/54.pdf


 * Be casreful of puttinglong excerpts on this talk page. Talk pages are not exempt from WP:COPYVIO. If there any reason you're not integrating this stuff into an article, either this one or the one on the Husdon River Ship Canal? BMK (talk) 00:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Perhaps this section is a sort of sandbox for this article, with the modified version of the above text to be added later. Epic Genius (talk) 18:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's fine, but being a sandbox does not abrogate the need to follow WP:COPYVIO which, like WP:BLP, is effective everywhere on Wikipedia. If anyone wants to store long excerpts from copyrighted sources, they will have to do it off-wiki. BMK (talk) 23:33, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
 * So, should the copyrighted text be deleted from this talk page? It can be replaced with Redacted. Epic Genius (talk) 02:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * No, I think it's OK, the material is properly labelled, and the amount of it is not excessive, I wouldn't think. BMK (talk) 03:07, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Comment on merge
I wouldn't mind seeing a merge of this article and Harlem River Ship Canal. BMK (talk) 00:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Common outlets for water
I have referred this to the Wikipedia Ref Desk. epic genius (talk) 00:37, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Opening summary


The lead provides a brief summary of key points in the article itself. The creek is no longer visible as a distinct flow of water, as explained through the article. Cover this, with single line, in the opening summary.

Turbulent, as described in the article:

"Spuyten Duyvil" may be literally translated as "Spouting Devil" or Spuitende Duivel'' in Dutch; a reference to the strong and wild tidal currents found at that location. It may also be translated as "Spewing Devil" or "Spinning Devil", or more loosely as "Devil's Whirlpool" or "Devil's Spate."''

Originally a distinct creek, as shown in the historical map in the article:

Subsumed (no longer standalone distinct creek separate from the significantly manufactured canal), really just a continuation of the Harlem River, as described in the article:

Today, Spuyten Duyvil Creek, the Harlem River Ship Canal, and the Harlem River form a continuous channel, referred to collectively as the Harlem River. Jmg38 (talk) 22:04, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
 * OK, I see, my error. I mistakenly thought you were adding new material rather than summarizing material already in the article. Apologies. BMK (talk) 22:09, 29 February 2016 (UTC)


 * No problem. And... you were right in pointing out that I had gone beyond the material in the article when I added "rocky yet marshy".  Thanks for your feedback.  Happy editing. Jmg38 (talk) 22:34, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

Depressed?
Might I humbly suggest that the Tibbetts Brook waters were 'diverted' into pipes below the street, rather than 'depressed'? 65.92.225.232 (talk) 13:43, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * "Diverted" doesn't have the correct connotations. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:39, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I changed it to "shunted". Does that work for you? Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:41, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * "Routed" is a better choice. I can't find any references for "shunt" being used for moving a stream into a pipe or culvert. Jd2718 (talk) 22:25, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
 * And you have a source for "routed"? Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:04, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Indeed, yes. https://www.dot.ny.gov/divisions/engineering/environmental-analysis/repository/c-01-45.pdf p58. https://www.seattle.gov/util/cs/groups/public/@spu/@DrainSew/documents/webcontent/cos_002616.pdf p8-4. http://www.working-earth.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Remnant-Waterways-booklet.pdf p8 - fascinating little pamphlet. When I couldn't find "shunted" being used for changing where a stream flows, I did a little reading, and the first use of "routed" I found was in relation to the Saw Mill, but I can't seem to locate that source. By the way, "diverted" is used plenty, and does not mean that the stream's course on the map changes - it really was fine in the first place. Jd2718 (talk) 09:55, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
 * After thinking a bit about it, I agree, let's go with "diverted" as 65.92 suggested. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:30, 16 May 2017 (UTC)