Talk:Squamish people/Archive 2

Name: "7" and pronunciation
Hi, I have two questions. Hope they're not dumb questions, but I could not find the answers with a quick look through the article. First of all, the name renders as "Sḵwxwú7mesh" in my browser, with a "7" in the middle. Is this even correct? If so, why is there a "7" in the middle of the name? If not, how should the name look?

Second, how do you pronounce this name? The IPA listing is not helpful or easy to decipher, so a simple transliteration might be helpful.

Thanks. --Seattle Skier (See talk tierS) 06:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hey Seattle Skier. Sḵwxwú7mesh is the correct rendering of the name.  The ethnography for the Sḵwxwú7mesh  language, dates back to the early 70's.  This nation (my nation) was working with different linguists and anthropologists (Namely Randy Buchard).  They, with elder Louis Miranda, created the Sḵwxwú7mesh alphabet.  This alphabet was the current IPA.  Like the major gripe with IPA, is that it changes so damn often.  Within this IPA, the "7" signified a glottal stop.  I don't know the current IPA and someone else did what is there now.  Sḵwxwú7mesh is pronounced "Skw-xwu-7(pause)-mesh".  The underline "ḵw" signifies a stronger guttural sound, compared with a "kw" with no underline would be a simply "k-w" put together sound.  The "ú" with a hyphen create a "oh" sound (Like oh my god), but with a strong emphasis.  Hope this brief explanation helps.  The Anglo-misnomer is 'Squamish, and is still used, but Sḵwxwú7mesh is the correct name  OldManRivers 08:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your informative reply, OldManRivers. Perhaps that info could be added to the article (or to Sḵwxwú7mesh  language), in case others have similar questions.  --Seattle Skier (See talk tierS) 08:32, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a good idea. I'll add the information to Sḵwxwú7mesh  language later today. :) OldManRivers 19:00, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually, '7' is not the IPA character for a glottal stop. It is merely the closest US-ASCII approximation to that character. The actual glottal stop character is 'ʔ' (which is not a question mark; look closely, there's no dot under it). See Glottal_stop_(letter). Or are you saying that "Sḵwxwú7mesh" dates from a time when there was no 'ʔ' character? n5jrn —Preceding undated comment added 15:06, 3 April 2009 (UTC).


 * I'll clarify this a bit more. The language phonetic alphabet was created by Randy Buchard and Dorthy Kennedy.  I can't recall at the moment, but it was either chosen because a.) at the time the "7" was used as the glottal stop or b.) it was a recognizable symbol to be used.  I know Kwak'wala uses ˀ or ' for a glottal stop, and other language in the area uses the aforementioned 'ʔ' is also used. OldManRivers (talk) 00:23, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I think ' would be a much better way to show the glottal stop, since we're already used to seeing it in words like Hawai'i and just about anything else that needs to convey a glottal stop when written in English. I don't see a reason why we have to make English look like IPA when they aren't the same thing.  On a side note, I agree with those who say this page should be renamed to Squamish.  Honestly it's not important what people call themselves in their own language because this is English Wikipedia.  It's not considered insensitive that we say German and not Deutsch, Japanese and not Nihonjin (?), etc.…so why should it be different for this?  Let's please not go down the slippery slope of calling everyone what they call themselves; it's endlessly impractical. JeanJPoirier (talk)  —Preceding undated comment added 05:28, 5 August 2009 (UTC).
 * The "drop 7" - where the tail drops below the baseline like g and j, was used in the old spelling system for St'at'imcets, not sure what it's replaced by, some apostrophe combination, and Nlaka'pamuctsin (Thompson) also used it, I think Secwepemctsin too, not sure whether Okanagan or Halkomelem....the use of "7" n ASCII was a "compromise".Skookum1 (talk) 03:25, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

While on this subject, I had a question about the pronunciation myself. I've seen several places in which the name is written . And in the Handbook of North American Indians the IPA is given as, which (ignoring the rest) has for the "x", a Voiceless uvular fricative--the fricative equivalent of /< k >. So I would have expected that to be spelled < x >. But I don't know, since I don't know the S k wxwú7mesh alphabet. Did that even make sense? --Miskwito 19:28, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You are correct about the underlined x. Unfortunately wikipedia can't put that character in titled.  OldManRivers 19:58, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up! --Miskwito 23:36, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean to be insensitive about this, but I should point out that this page currently goes against current Wikipedia policy. See here: Naming conventions (use English). Basically, what it comes down to is that this is the English version of Wikipedia, so all articles should primarily be using the English version of person and place names. For example, it is Florence, Italy and not Firenze. Beijing, and not 北京. The Karen people of Thailand and Myanmar, not กะเหรี่ยง. Place and people names always get mangled when adopted by another language, this isn't anything new. It is ok to put the proper native spelling in the introduction of the article, but the actual article should reside under the English version of the name... which I'm guessing would be Squamish people, since Squamish is a disambiguation page. English should be generally used in the body of the article. I realize that the anglicized name is probably not even close to its correct pronunciation, but keep in mind that the intended audience is English speaking. In theory, you could start a Squamish language (Sḵwxwú7mesh snichim) version of Wikipedia, where everything, including English place names like Vancouver would be translated to your language, but seeing how there are only 30-40 speakers (according to Wikipedia), that would be a bit unrealistic. ;) Rawr 19:33, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, it would depend on whether any English-speaking linguists or tribal members used the spelling  . If not, then I agree that the title isn't really appropriate. If that's the spelling preferred by the tribe, however (including among members who are monolingual English speakers), then I'm ambivalent about whether "Sḵwxwú7mesh" or "Squamish" is more appropriate. Part of me would say "use the term most commonly encountered", which doubtlessly would be "Squamish". But if "Sḵwxwú7mesh" is gradually coming to replace "Squamish", then I feel like maybe we should err on the side of respecting the wishes of the speakers and tribal members over continuity. There's some precedent for that in other Wikipedia articles, but it may be that it's still counter to Wikipedia policy. Ultimately, though, I don't know what the current situation is with the Sḵwxwú7mesh/Squamish tribe, so I don't know... --Miskwito 21:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As an addendum, I've found several linguistic publications online which use the spelling "Skwxwú7mesh": DP Structure and Semantic Composition in S k w x wú7mesh (PDF), Prosodic and Morphological Factors in Squamish (S k w x wú7mesh) Stress Assignment (PDF), The Semantics of Determiners: Domain restriction in Skwxwú7mesh, and Negation and Subject Agreement in S k w x wú7mesh (PDF), as well as several other uses of the spelling (including a "Skwxwú7mesh Language" course at the Nicola Valley University of Technology, someone's MySpace blog [which I can't link to because MySpace is blacklisted], and in a biography of one Dr. Leora Bar-el). "Squamish" is unquestionably more common, but evidently "Skwxwú7mesh" is used in English to refer to the language, sometimes --Miskwito 22:51, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * It would be hard to argue that Sḵwxwú7mesh is an English word, primarily because it uses characters that aren't in the English alphabet. To the casual reader stumbling across this article (as I did), it is an awkward read, because of the repeated use of Sḵwxwú7mesh in the body of the article.  It would be like trying to read a passage that says, "With over 1.32 billion people, 中华人民共和国 has the largest population of any country in the world."  Even it were more readable, it would still sound strange, like: "Français is an official language in 29 countries."  On an unrelated note, what would be a more accurate rendering of Sḵwxwú7mesh in English than "Squamish"?  Doing my best to decipher the comments above, my stab at it would be something like, "Skwukwu mesh" Rawr 23:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
 * What about Kwakwaka'wakw, Nuu-chah-nulth, Snuneymuxw, and so on. I understand what's been discussed, but Squamish is a misnomer, albeit more used in the English speaking world.  Historical text and such.  But it is been phased out and used for the proper name Sḵw x wú7mesh, or Sḵw x wú7mesh-ulh.  It's hard to write the proper name in English because the sounds in Sḵwxwú7mesh language are not in English language.  I'm not sure how to get around it, but it seems to me to make sense to keep it this way when many other Indigenous nations that were placed with misnomers (ie. Nootka, Kwakiutl, Nanaimo, Musquem, Tsawwassen, Sechelt, Sliammon, etc. etc. etc.)  If they nation 'and other sources are changing it to the proper name, I see no reason why it shouldn't be the title for this article.  The article does give the Squamish name in the first sentence also and it has a redirect page to here.  OldManRivers 00:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

"Sḵwxwú7mesh" is a Latin alphabet word (like "Þorgerður Katrín Gunnarsdóttir" or "Straße des 17. Juni") so it doesn't need transliteration per Use English. This is in contrast to 中华人民共和国 which is not a Latin alphabet word and does need transliteration. Haukur 23:06, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmmmm... from the Use English article: "There is disagreement over what article title to use when a native name uses the Latin alphabet with diacritics (or "accent marks") but general English usage omits the diacritics. A survey that ran from April 2005 to October 2005 ended with a result of 62–46 (57.4%–42.6%) in favor of diacritics, which was a majority but was not considered to be a consensus." and "There is disagreement as to whether German, Icelandic and Faroese names need transliteration for the characters ß, þ and ð." And besides, 7 is not part of the latin alphabet, it is an arabic numeral. Rawr 14:25, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Perhaps. But even if you decide ß, þ and ð are extra dodgy (and the facts on the ground are that they are currently used in quite many page titles) "Sḵwxwú7mesh" has no characters like that, just characters used in the English version of the Latin alphabet with some diacritics. Yes, and a character used in the Arabic system of numerals, familiar to everyone. Of course not everyone will know how to pronounce that character (or the other characters) in this instance but that can't be helped. It's not obvious how to pronounce Llanfairpwllgwyngyll or Lech Wałęsa either. To pronounce a foreign name correctly you generally have to be familiar with the relevant language. Haukur 15:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)


 * My worry is that the vast majority of English speakers can neither link to this article or pronounce it's name. If there is ever a "Sḵwxwú7mesh" wikipedia it's alphabet would be used for english articles in turn. Adam McCormick 01:58, 4 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I find this difficult to understand. The French call themselves Français. So, is French a misnomer that should be changed? Cuon 08:40, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Sure they can link to it, just use cut and paste. Or link to Skwxwú7mesh or Squamish which should redirect here. The name is hard to pronounce for those who don't know the language but as I alluded to above that's true for many names that include only characters common in English. Haukur 10:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The article should be at the English-language name, per the naming conventions (especially given that the native-language name is neologistic anyway; the written language is younger than I am! No one is actually going to enter that "Sḵwxwú7mesh" string in the search window. That underlined-k symbol won't even render correctly on many of our reader's monitors. —  SMcCandlish  &#91;talk&#93; &#91;cont&#93;  ‹(-¿-)› 08:15, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
 * It's true that "Squamish" is overwhelmingly more common in English than "S k w x wú7mesh". A question that remains for me, and that I still haven't really seen adequately answered, I think (though OldManRivers has briefly alluded to it), is whether Skwxwu7mesh/Squamish people (or others, for that matter) actually use the term in everyday conversations in English when referring to the language or people. And more importantly, whether there's any evidence for that, in writing or whatever. I personally trust OldManRivers' assertion that there's a shift away from "Squamish", but that's not enough to count as a reliable source.


 * To change subjects, incidentally, this issue applies to several articles besides this one (e.g., Shishalh/Sháshíshálh language vs. Sechelt/Sechelt language). --Miskwito 07:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll also add that this discussion effects the whole Indigenous peoples of the Northwest Coast articles on wikipedia. Many articles on wikipedia, on English Wikiepdia use characters and have name that are not in the English language, although they are still hard to pronounce, and still hard to type in a search.  But they still exist.  Now, I do understand the differences in the situation, in that Squamish has been around a lot longer, but so as Nootka, Kwagiutl, (Heiltsuk|Southern Tsimshian) and (Heiltsuk|Northern Kwakiutl).  The list goes on.  If there is a move to Anglify the spelling, the names should still be kept for their actual name. (Sḵw x wú7mesh vs. Skwxwu7mesh).  OldManRivers 00:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I've come here from WP:RFC/STYLE and have to say I'm inclined to agree with User:SMcCandlish. I'm not convinced this is going within the spirit of WP:NAME. — OwenBlacker 20:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ditto, and ditto. Per the policy WP:NAME, article titles should be in English. --Quiddity 02:15, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Change article to Skwxwu7mesh with S k w x wu7mesh in the first line like  Nuremberg?   Or do you propose Squamish over any other  name.  Squamish is still the misnomer and if we change it to Squamish, we must fullow suit and change Nuu-chah-nulth back to Nootka.  Change Kwakwaka'wakw back to Kwakiutl.  Heiltsuk back to Northren Kwakiutl or Southern Tsimshian.  Or Shishalh to Sechelt. Secwepemc to Shushap. Of course there are countless nations, communities, etc. thaat have this problem.


 * There is also no English equivalent to Skwxwu7mesh. Skw-a-mish is not the same as Skw-xwu-mesh.  Maybe a disambig would help with some of this, but it still brings us back to the naming conventions of this article.    I understand using English conventions, but we're looking at a bigger problem of Euro-American point of view in history on the naming conventions of these nations.  Considering also that although some of these names have been common place in the English language (through anthropology texts, history textbooks, etc.) the nations themselves are moving to remove those for the actual naming for their nation.  OldManRivers 18:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The examples I'm thinking of (using "Germany" instead of "Deutschland", and "Xhosa" instead of "amaXhosa") would indicate that we use whatever the native-English-speakers use (in this case, "Squamish"). However, I'm not positive. My main objection is with the non-standard orthography ("7"); afaik, we only use accents in titles that are loanwords, like "Raison d'être". I'd suggest asking for further input at somewhere like WikiProject Linguistics, or Village pump (policy), if that didn't clear it up. --Quiddity 19:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see what you mean. I agree further discussion is need but will advise that contributors look at the issue as a whole. That it is not just a naming issue of this page, but all the nations of Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast.  OldManRivers 07:44, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

But if Skwxwu7mesh is increasingly being used by English-speaking academics, doesn't that make it a loan word? And if using Skwxwu7mesh is more accurate than Squamish.. if, as Oldmanrivers says, there is no English equivalent to Skwxwu7mesh, then it only makes sense to use the most accurate. The article "Hungarian people" may use "Hungarian" in the title, but it makes extensive use of "magyar" which is not exactly synonymous. The Cowichan Tribes article is a perfect example... ignorant English-speakers (such as myself) may regularly describe people as "Cowichan" but it is simply an inaccurate term to group together several different grousp - thus, the Quamichan article.

Whether the majority of English speakers can pronounce Skwxwu7mesh is irrelevant. If we change Kwakwaka'wakw back to Kwakiutl and Shishalh back to Sechelt, most English speakers might continue to struggle pronouncing Kwakiutl and Sechelt. The examples of Llanfairpwllgwyngyll or Lech Wałęsa mentioned above are further illustrations.

In many cases, Europeans attempted to phonetically write down what they heard, leading to a huge variety of names.. the Laich-kwil-tach are often called (by Europeans) the Euclataws, the Yucultas, Lequiltok, Lekwiltok, and the Cape Mudge Band, and the Southern Kwakiutl. This sort of variety applies to most nations, so there's a big difference between that and the Germany/Deutschland example, where these is one singular English alternative. If we have to choose one of many, we might as well choose the one which is most accurate, and used in contemporary writings. We're not talking about Henry II of France who is dead and keeps his English name, but a living people who speak English and have chosen this name, like those living in Mumbai. - TheMightyQuill 16:58, 2 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm going to have to agree with SMcCandlish, Quiddity, and others that the title of this article creates a usability problem. Neither ḵ nor 7 are usually considered part of the Latin alphabet, for example. We should follow the model of articles like Nuremberg, using the name English speakers use as the title and mentioning the official name in the lead sentence of the article.  r speer  / ɹəəds ɹ  05:38, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Are you proposing Skwxwu7mesh over Sḵw x wú7mesh, with Sḵw x wú7mesh in the first sentence? OldManRivers 06:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
 * No, I'm proposing Squamish people with Sḵw x wú7mesh in the first sentence. I'm convinced that English speakers referring to the people do not generally call them anything with a 7 in it.  r speer  / ɹəəds ɹ  07:20, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, seems like this section is the appropriate place for this comment, although a subtitle/subsection re French/other language titles maybe is appropriate; - this in response to the addition of the link to the short article in fr.wikipedia.org, which is titled "Squamish (population)". In other words, there's an issue here that while English is expected to absorb the "correct form", the obsolete English form continues to exist in other languages; unless, that is, a parallel effort to force/persuade "Skwxwu7meshified" spelling on French or German or Chinese usages should be made, no? In other words Skwxwu7mesh (population) should be the French article's title, if the principle applied to the anglosphere here is fair ball in the francosphere....maybe only English has to be politically correct, though ... ;-| Skookum1 23:29, 31 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Maybe it's not that only English needs to be politically correct, but a question of what is acceptable/politically correct in each language is different. For instance, the Black people article corresponds with the french fr:Race noire and the spanish es:Negro (persona), neither of which would be reasonable for english wikipedia. Almost every other language equivalent for TheMightyQuill 16:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * But why is it only English that is expected to revamp itself, even admitting completely "alien" characters (the underscore-k, the accented u, as well as the 7), when no other language does that same? And, with all due respect to OldManRivers' position, myself I think that the idea that the anglicization "Squamish" is somehow "less accurate" or even "incorrect" than a typographically-tweaked Sḵwxwú7mesh.  If there were a standard orthography across the board for aboriginal languages, such that the same characters meant the same thing in Kwak'wala, Nlaka'pamuctsin, Dakelh, St'at'imcets or Haida, then fine, there'd be some point to this.  But admitting a host of "correct" spellings which don't match any actual English orthographic system - that's another matter.  I'm reconciled to this usage now becoming current in English, as with the diacriticalized versions of Sencoten and Sto:lo and so on, but it's a complete reach to me that it's only English that's expected to make this accommodation.  Although there isn't a Chinese-language article on the Sḵwxwú7mesh yet, it would necessarily have to have a sinicized prononciation imposed on it, i.e. unless there's characters in Chinese which use the sounds represented by the underscore-k and the accented-u and the 7, which seems unlikely.  Ditto with the French and any other language renderings; only English is being expected to change, apparently no one else.  Where's the "politically correct" in that??Skookum1 19:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Both of the examples you gave are literal translations of "black people". The fact that the Spanish word "negro" was used in a derogatory way in English does not mean that Spanish is somehow being unreasonable.  r speer  / ɹəəds ɹ  20:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If you're speaking to me, Rspeer, then you're agreeing with my point. Different words in different languages is not an indicator of who is more or less tolerant, it simply indicates that almost identical words can have different meanings - thus, we shouldn't be influenced in our English language article titles by what other languages do.


 * As for Skookum, I take your point, but would you suggest Staulo for Stó:lō because it has English characters? Even a basic google test has 10x more Stó:lō (or atleast Sto:lo) than Staulo, but I don't remember any semi-colons in the English alphabet. So even though an English character version does exist, it would be pretty ridiculous to use it. I don't think it's necessary (or a good idea) to make a sweeping decision.-TheMightyQuill 19:14, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It may be worth noting that the website of the Squamish Nation, http://www.squamish.net, consistently uses "Squamish" to refer to itself in English text (the graphic on each page says Sḵx̱úm̍ish).&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 22:18, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

And the Squamish Nation article is in accordance with that, but this article is a different topic. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 22:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * No, squamish.net uses the word "Squamish" to refer to the people, which is exactly the subject of this article.&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 23:44, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

On further inspection, you are correct. My mistake. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 20:26, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
 * And Miskwito's post on August 3rd 2007 has a number of acemedmic documents that use Sḵwxwú7mesh, and there are a number of books coming out now with that spelling. I will also add the Squamish Nation website (www.squamish.net) uses another wrong spelling S kw xúḿish Úwxumixw', which is incorrect.  The website is outdated and is geared toward non-Sḵwxwú7mesh.  Plus, this is the band council government.  All notices, flyers, and documents done for and by Sḵwxwú7mesh use the spelling S k w x wú7mesh.  OldManRivers (talk) 22:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Well, is this Wikipedia article supposed to be geared toward Sḵw x wú7mesh people or toward non-Sḵw x wú7mesh?&mdash;Nat Krause(Talk!·What have I done?) 23:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I vote to change the article title to the standard English rendering. The "correct" spelling in the new Squamish rendering can be mentioned, and certainly can be used in any Squamish Wikipedia.  But here, it is inappropriate. Tmangray (talk) 19:16, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Gee, Tmangray, if I didn't know better I'd think you'd begun to wikistalk me....but here we're actually on the same side, although I long ago resigned myself to puttting up with aboriginal-diacritical titles; as noted somewhere above, sometimes anglicizations exist which are not searchable, but the non-anglo latinizations like Sto:lo and St'at'imc (where t' = "tl") vs their anglicized Staulo and Stlatliumh (both of which occur really only in historical documents and are not in use). Anyway, welcome to a linguistic-political swamp of the first order....I dnol't particular like that underscore-k either, and rfact of the matter is there's a special character that looks like a 7 should be used instead of the glottal-stop '7' (the tail on the special character drops below the baseline like a g or j).  There's a whole political stew around all this, such that anglicized forms like Musqueam and Squamish and Nanaimo have become to be regarded as "incorrect" or "bastardized" and the new spellings are meant to make amends for that...but in the process we wound up with a whole new bunch of characters in regional English usage - an underscore-x in Nuxalk, a slash-c in Sencotem, and Skwxwu7mesh and Sto:lo and others...welcome to the swamp, I don't think you'll get anywhere with this.  It's very un-PC, and there's a UN resolution or two giving precedence to the native preferences.....Skookum1 (talk) 20:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Hey Skookum, do you have any links for those resolutions? It'd be good for citations. OldManRivers (talk) 18:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Aah, yes, another wonderful example of Wikipedian double standards. As a French Canadian, I see all of the pages pertaining to Quebec being forced to abide to the english Wikipedia standard (Montreal instead of Montréal, Quebec City instead of Québec, Montreal Canadien instead of Le Canadien de Montréal) which I find acceptable. Canuck wikipedians go to great length to enforce those rules and shoot down any frenchie who might change one of these articles. It's okay, we're on the english wiki. I don't have any problem with this. But then, when it comes to first nations, it's a completely different set of rules. Thank you Wikipedia. --Dez26 18:34, 24 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dez26 (talk • contribs)


 * If you read the conversation above in detail you'll see there's many reasons and the conversation has gone around in circles; I suggest that you take it to WP:CANSTYLE and also jointly to whatever relevant section on NorthAmNative. There's a p.c. usage that's become the dominant standard in British Columbia - though usually without most of the diacriticals ( the colon /:/ in Sto:lo being the most visible exception)- and the official usages/spellings of the bands/peoples themselves are meant not to coincide with English usages of teh same letters; for example /s/ in Salish languages is generally "sh" ,and /t'/ in St'at'imcets is actually "tl" in practice; /x/ and /c/ vary also in older "official" spellings and newer ones; the pionee-r-era "slatlemuk" is the closest to standard English orthographic principles; but is "wrong" to p.c.-ites.  Take it up at CANSTYLE.  Like many British Columbians, I've come to reconcile with the variance between what we're used to here and what international standards might be (e.g. just because the Queen Charlotte Islands are now "Haida Gwaii" - or will be pending legislation - doesn't mean that that's what they're gonna be in French or Russian or Urdu; even now "Kwakiutl" remains acceptable for all Kwakwaka'wakw except in English (and Kwak'wala).  A resolution of the dichotomy you're talking about is indeed needed; but there's cultural sensitivities and political realities at stake that, yes, are similar to those between French and English Canada; all the more reason to take it to CANSTYLE....Skookum1 (talk) 23:05, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Sound File

 *  split from thread above. 
 * Other articles with difficult-to-pronounce names have sound files of someone pronouncing it. Perhaps that's something that could be added? Oldmanrivers, any chance you could help? - TheMightyQuill 19:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've been meaning to do this. I can make the sound file in mp3, but I am unsure how to upload it and everything to wikipedia.  Either if someone could send me a message, or I can send someone the file and they upload it.  I'll record the sound file right now.  OldManRivers 02:16, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It's easy, OMR. Look under the search window in the menu at left on any page; you'll see "upload file".....Skookum1 16:26, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
 * PS you'll need to know which copyright tag to use; use, which is "public domain, self-created". OldManRivers 00:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I can't upload a mp3 file. It says png, gif, jpg, jpeg, xcf, pdf, mid, sxw, sxi, sxc, sxd, ogg, svg, djvu only.  Which do I have to save it in, and how do I get it to that type of file?  PS.  Thanks for the help.  OldManRivers 00:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I figured it out. Should be uploaded in a few minutes.  OldManRivers 00:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I added the audio file to Commons, so I was able to add it to the French article. Arctur 00:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Sound file added! If there is problems with it, please fix how ever needed. Hmm, now I feel like doing this for a lot of indigenous peoples names. OldManRivers 00:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * It sounds great. Thanks for doing that. You should definitely do more if you can. - TheMightyQuill 17:13, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Map
I have a map that was released by the band council a number of years ago for the Land Use Plan. It outlines the traditional territory. Of coruse, this overlaps with neigboring peoples, but that's how property rights go/used to go around these parts. What I need help is is making a "wikipedia" map. Is any "wikipedia" maps for the Lowermainland area, or Southren British Columbia. Sḵwxwú7mesh is quite small compared to the rest of BC so a BC-wide map would be too big I think. Either way, having a map would help illustrate the territory. Thanks!!!! - OldManRivers 00:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * There's this but it has all the modern municipal boundaries. - TheMightyQuill 17:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm looking for something more along the lines of this or this. - OldManRivers 20:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

There are a few here that might work... - TheMightyQuill 03:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Meaning of Sḵwxwú7mesh
In the french version of the article, I wrote that the meaning of Sḵwxwú7mesh/Squamish is "Mother of the wind". I don't remember exactly where I found that, but certainly somewhere in internet... And I read in the english one that the meaning is "the people of the sacred water". Can anybody help me about that ? Is there somewhere a reference about the meaning ?Arctur 00:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I can help with this. The "Mother of Big Wind" is a tourist thing that was created in the town of of Squamish, likely referencing the Squamish wind.  I've also heard of "Place of Big Wind", "The People of One", "The Unified People", "The Original People", and such.  Out of all of these, I have only heard one explanation of the name that makes sense.  Like the above mention discussion reiterates, Squamish is the anglicized version of Sḵw x wú7mesh, right?  Well Skwxwu7mesh is then broken down more because it's root sound, pre-fixes and suffixes.


 * Mesh = People of (This is common in multiple Coast Salish languages, but not all)
 * X w - comes from the word xwiyu7kw. This words translates to "amazing", or "special".  Something along those lines.  the xw part is the root sound from that word.
 * S k w+ú - comes from es k wús k wu. This word translates to "to drink", or to "drink water".

You put it together and it creates mesh+ x w-s k wu, which when spoken properly is Sḵw x wú7mesh

I unfortunately don't have sources, although there should be. The reason I know this is because I'm studying my language, and this is what the elders and language teachers. If it's felt it should be removed, I won't fight it. I'm pretty sure it's not in print anywhere. Hope that answers your question? OldManRivers 23:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Also maybe it's good to be wary of crossovers from the Skokomish in northern Puget Sound, whose name is (as you'll see if you look at Twana, their other name) a hybrid of the Chinook skookum with the Salishan -mish for "people" (variously -mx, mesh, mc, -imc, -emc and so on in various languages); but "Sko-ko-mish" was also used historically for the Sḵw x wú7mesh, as another attempt to render it in English-type spelling/simplified prononciation. "People of the sacred water", if that's in this article, sounds like a crib of the meaning of the Skokomish rather than the Sḵw x wú7mesh, and similar confusions often take place over the BC Chehalis (Sts'Ailes and their namesake in Washington (although there's a legendary/historical connection between the two).  I've always associated OldManRivers' people and the town with the wind, although wasn't previously familiar with the squamish wind per se (which I've just always known as outflow winds, although on pause I guess I've heard the word now and then over the years, as with the general non-specific use of skookumchuck.  BTW OldManRivers, tangential question - do your people have tapes or transcripts of Chinook Jargon usages among the inlet's elders?  - always curious about regional variations and extra words (be they borrowings or inventions) and such.  On limited library time, gotta go...Skookum1 20:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Further to the wrong-meaning re the wind, I'd always heard it that "-mish" was wind, with "squa-" presumably "big"; not sure where that originated but I know it was in so-called "Sea to Sky Country" tourist bumpf back in the '80s, and I've heard it from (non-native) locals; but it's like chinook being translated as "snow-eater" on the Prairies....(as well as given a frenchified shinook prononciation).Skookum1 20:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for these precisions. I'd like to find a reference about that. Arctur 22:51, 9 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Further thoughts on this directed at OldManRivers' comment above re whether or not the error should be removed; rather, it might be useful to include it as an error, i.e. after giving the proper meaming, a further setnence/explanation that the alternate meaning was a mistake (although I think the mistake long predates the Squamish tourist board in the '80s...). Just a passing thought, no biggie....Skookum1 22:52, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Most likely, btw, the squamish wind context came from the Squamish/Howe Sound valley being a high-profile example of an outflow wind, and the name was given to the wind because the example of it at Squamish (or rather, in the Squamish River basin/estuary, as the locality didn't get that name until the 1930s or so ("Newport" before that). The actual provenance of the "big wind" error is doubtless linked to this, but in a chicken-and-egg sort of way.  All; I'm suggesting is that the error gets cited as an error, and the proper meaning of course receive primacy of place/citation.Skookum1 22:55, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The only academic source I have with me that says anything about the name is Lyle Campbell's Languages of Native North America (Cambridge University Press, 1997). In note 40 on pg. 396, he says "The name Squamish is from  and contains the suffix -miš 'people'; the root has no other identification", and cites as his source pg. 473 in Wayne Suttles' chapter "Central Coast Salish" in vol. 7 of the Handbook of North American Indians (Northwest Coast) (Smithsonian Institution, 1990). [I replaced Campbell's original uppercase "X" with "χ"].

The HNAI is generally pretty reliable, I think, but doubtless there are some inaccuracies, so this may be one of them (the rendering of the Skwxwu7mesh name is incorrect in any case, since it should be ). Hopefully there's some reasonably-reliable source that we can cite on Wikipedia which gives the "people of the great water" translation. At least in the meantime this is enough to say that the name *doesn't* mean "mother of the wind". --Miskwito 23:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, it should be . OldManRivers 08:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Map
Here is a map they Squamish Nation produced for the Land Use Plan. It's similar to other maps of the traditional territory. If there is anyone who can either do a map up for this article, or teach me how to, that's be really helpful. Thanks to anyone who can help us. OldManRivers (talk) 19:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Added + Expanded
As most of you have noticed, I've been busy working away on adding to parts and expanding others. Although my English language mastery isn't quite where I would like, some have been copy editing my work. There is more sources I'm in the process of procuring, then going through and citing a lot of places. I'm imaging eventually it will become too long and need to be expanded further into a series of articles. I'm going to go through other To-Do-List like work I'm planning on working on, and if anyone would like to join me in this article, or other indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest Coast, I'll be happy to help.

Next:
This list is ever expanding!
 * Create sound bites for every Sḵwxwú7mesh word.
 * Placenames, villages, locations
 * Words, terms, and others.
 * Add photographs of present day activities. This could be a feast, potlatch, or canoe welcoming.
 * Also add photographs for present day villages. Xwemelch'stn, Eslha7an, Sta7mes, etc.
 * Create template to organize all Sḵwxwú7mesh information.
 * Include quotes from deceased cultural leaders and elders.
 * Expand History section into specific year periods. (Example: 1792-1820, 1821-1870, 1871-1923, 1924-1955, 1955-1990, 1990-present)
 * Expand Colonization and assimilation
 * Residential school
 * Potlatch ban
 * 60's Scoop
 * Racism and discrimination
 * Expand Contemporary times and cultural revival.
 * Language revival
 * Arts
 * Coast Salish art style, Canoe Journey's, and songs.
 * Things that have changed? (Cultural stuff that used to happen, but don't now....well, not yet anyways...lol)

Thanks for any help! OldManRivers (talk) 10:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC) Ad

Senakw picture shaman
Hi; just noticed the caption to this and needed to ask OMR - wouldn't this shaman have been, uh, is it August Jack whose digs Senakw was? Reason I'm asking has to do with those pics of the shaman/chiefly regalia for qwhy-qwhy in Maj. Matthews' Early Vancouver Vol. I; in order to photograph the regalia/masks with someone wearing them, the chief in question (August Jack I'd think, but maybe Joe Matthias? Both were Matthews' contacts/friends) wouldn't appear on camera, especially I suppose in full garb with all its significance, but he let Matthews wear them and went behind the lens to take the pictures. These are in VPL for sure and maybe in the North Van library, maybe your Nation even has a copy in its library; one of these would significantly add to this page, and maybe also any page on Qwhy-qwhy and whichever chiefly lineage the duds belonged to. One thing that impresses me about the pics/regalia - a completely different costume style from what people associate with the Northwest Coast, more reminiscent to this hwelitum's eyes of Interior or even Hopi/Southwest stuff than Haida or Kwakiutl...but so also with things I've seen around Mt Currie or the Canyon, and from what I gather about Scowlitz and Chehalis cultures, of which no visual evidence remains, only accounts...anyway, just asking if you've got the time and inclination to find these and scan them, I recommend 'em; and if you've never read Matthews' transcripts of his interviews with First Nations elders of the time (mostly Musqueam I think though) I'd be interested in your reaction/comment/feedback.Skookum1 (talk) 21:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I know what photograph you speak of. The mask your referring too is called "Sxwayxway" in my language.  Similar up and down the Coast.  It's mostly a mid-northern coast salish thing, with some Kwakwaka'wakw who procured the ceremony through either marriage or war.  It's highly taboo to photograph these masks, or to carve them when they are not for the actual ceremony.  Only certain families have the right to use this ceremony (there are other ceremonies that some families have rights to too).  All of this is, well, quite secretive.  I know it's probably be a good pictures, but if my people check out this page, they reaction would all be "WTF!  What's that doing on there." lol  I'm not sure what else there is too say.  There may be other pictures of people in full garb that would be cool, but I wouldn't recommend putting that photograph on there.

The shaman in the Senakw photographs is apparently a man named Jimmy Jimmy (or Jimmy Squared as we like to call him). He was one of the last Shamans' from my people. Had 7 wives apparently. Don't know other then that (well, I do know a couple of his songs actually). Oh, and I think he had a longhouse on Gambier Island. OldManRivers (talk) 06:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

History Sections
I'm going to be adding greatly to the history section over the next little while. In particuarly, a lot of the oral-history stories that would greatly add to the Vancouver-related history. Things like Siwash Rock, Point Grey, The Lions (Peaks), and other geographic anomolies that have significance in Sḵwxwú7mesh history. Then, moving onward to contact and colonization history. This is where I'm having trouble with naming idea's/conventions. I imagine Skwxwu7mesh Oral history working for the previous mentioned section, but what about colonization? Post-contact History of the Skwxwu7mesh? This I was going to roughly break up into: Contact with Europeans: 1791-1820, 1821-1870, 1871-1923, 1924-1955, 1955-1990, 1990-present. The exact numbering of years will change but those are the rough dates of significant events such as HBC, Indian Act, Potlatch ban-lift, The Oka Uprising (and related government response of the BC Treaty Process]] to present history. It's just the naming of the post-contact history I don't know what to do about.  I'm taking suggestions/help. OldManRivers (talk) 05:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The article is called Sḵwxwú7mesh, so you don't need to include it in the section titles. Other than that, I'm not much help. Separating oral history from post-contact history might be a little weird, since oral history didn't stop first time they saw a white guy. =) I don't know what to suggest... sorry.- TheMightyQuill (talk) 14:39, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Typically FN history of the modern era is still oral, and accounts of everything that happened still exist within the community, i.e. from their perspective, and some gets recorded into hard copy. I can think of one instance with the Skwxwu7mesh, for example, where the first-contact by HBC staff is remembered on both sides, but with very different accounts as I recall.  There's also the Pauline Johnson claim, from Joe Matthias, that there was a Russian ship in Burrard Inlet/English Bay which met the Xwemelchtsn people; not sure if OMR can corroborate that one, but the idea is there's no record from other sources of that visitation (nobody's mined the Russian archives yet btw).  Pretty much in the Skwxwu7mesh case not much more happened from that point, in terms of white contact, until the gold rush, and then Skwxwu7mesh territory was off-limits, and pretty much the miners had no clue about the overland route via what is now Whistler; later in the 19th Century bodies were found around Howe Sound and Burrard Inlet of miners who had camped out, or tried to pass through, Skwxwu7mesh territory (care to comment OMR?).  Anyway about this oral/formal history thing I've had the same issue with my http://www.cayoosh.net/native.html page, which is incomplete because I grounded on the complexities of the gold rush period, might get back to it now that I've got a computer again (yay!).  All I can suggest is just tell the story in sequence; when you want to cite oral history, cite it in the same way as any other reference, just perhaps cite the catalogue number in the Skwxwu7mesh database as a citation, if it's there.  Integrate oral and formal; just make sure to distinguish which is which.Skookum1 (talk) 16:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think I should of been clearer in what I was intending to say. It was late when I wrote that so, please forgive me for not paying attention to the flow of my thoughts.  This is what I was kind of thinking of. Note the history sections.  The Colonization and assimilation section will merge with the time lined history so don't worry about the third section on that page. That would be section 1.4


 * I agree with you two about the naming conventions. Like I said, I was up late and didn't think it clearly.  Oral history does still exist, and didn't stop existing at contact with White folks.  My initial idea was to create an overall series on Sḵwxwú7mesh.  There would be Sḵwxwú7mesh History, Sḵwxwú7mesh Society, Sḵwxwú7mesh Culture, and Sḵwxwú7mesh Spirituality. This would add to Sḵwxwú7mesh language.  The Sḵwxwú7mesh article would obviously become too long and large if all information of those individual articles was included on the main page.  Thus, the need to eventually create a series.  Naming conventions all make sence, except the history section, which I was think of creating two separate history article.  One for the Contact with Europeans: 1791-1820, 1821-1870, 1871-1923, 1924-1955, 1955-1990, 1990-present section, and another article for things such as stories.  I can't think of any better naming conventions, so my new idea is to forgo the idea to split them into two Sḵwxwú7mesh History articles, and create one Sḵwxwú7mesh History article, like the rest, but there be two, maybe three, main headings.  But once I get to that point, I'm back at where I was originally and stuck with naming conventions.  What's better then Post-Contact History, and Oral Story History?  OldManRivers (talk) 01:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the name convention for the history article would be History of the Skwxwu7mesh people; if the other way around then Skwxwu7mesh history but I've never seen stand-alone history articles of that kind; Society/culture/ethnography [pick one] of the Skwxwu7mesh people (there's p;robably a standard name format for that subject; look around in the indigenous project's articles). Skwxwu7mesh spirituality is probably OK, but note again the lower case.Skookum1 (talk) 07:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I was thninking of the lowercase. I'll have a look around.  Always looking for other articles to model after, but pretty soon these two (Skwxwu7mesh and Kwakwaka'wakw) will be ones to be modeled after.  OldManRivers (talk) 08:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

User:OldManRivers/Sḵwxwú7mesh/Sḵwxwú7mesh history looks good to me, but I have some questions... You plan to keep "Assimilation and discrimination" as a separate section from colonization? Isn't assimilation part of colonization? Also, I'm perfectly happy leaving everything up to and including the present day as "Colonization" but I'm guessing it won't be too long until someone comes along and calls it POV. It might be a good time to start looking for references to back it up... that is, people referring to the present day as colonial. I can think of a few... -TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * This is what I was saying on a certain other page '-) about prejudicial language being POV; you're right about the title although about the equation of colonization and assimilation it's not quite the same; assimilation would be the church/school, colonization the assertion of legal authority/economics while the assimilation is a parallel thing. OMR has been pretty good about toning down the usual political invective; the idea being to at least erect the framework of articles and then be willing to see the language stripped down or simplififed; btw on my new as-yet-unloaded userpage I drop my quip "politically correct language is inherently POV".Skookum1 (talk) 16:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * To Mightyquill: I wasn't sure about it. I want to do a detailed history, like the timline, modeled after History of Canada, and other history pages.  But I also think specific things, like residential school, potlatch ban, and 60's scoop can be written about in greater detail.  I was going to merge them, and when those topics came up for the era I outlined, I would just spend more time on those in there. But now I'm thinking they need to be it's own section under assimilation.  I agree with Skookum1 that colonization and assimilation are different, but similar.  Different enough not to consider one.  I know I'm potentially going to run into POV problems in the future as more look at the pages, but I'd rather write it best to my ability, then let others figure it out later.  Most of it's citable (what could be POV) and so dependable, but I just know there will be ignorant contribotors or editors out there who see it and say this or that. We'll get to that bridge when we get there. OldManRivers (talk) 20:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I also wanted to mention I found [this] and a similar one for a Skwxwu7mesh longhouse. I'm going on vacation for a while, but when I get back, I'll duplicate them in photoshop and created newer and better ones to better illustrate the dwellings. I'll probably do the same for images of canoes too. OldManRivers (talk) 20:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Re Point Grey
Just noticed that above in your native-article series/work; I know there were villages out there but I think maybe you're referring to Ulxsen or however it's written, the name of the headland and, I think, the whole ridge stretching east to Central Park. If so, be aware there's a Burrard Peninsula article which mentions it; although to me that term means the downtown/Stanley Park peninsulae; apparently formally it's what's between the isthmus between the Fraser and the head of Burrard Inlet at Port Moody, so therefore indcluding Burnaby. Also any integration with the Tsleil-wau-tuth culture/history articles is no doubt a good idea; is there language "officially" Skwxwuu7mesh snichim or a Halkomelem dialect btw?Skookum1 (talk) 07:28, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I was refering to Ulxsen, as well as some other stories, camp sites, and villages around that area. Most of English Bay in general really.  Jericho Beach, Wrech Beach, etc.  Skwxwu7mesh is not Halkomelem, although some early anthropologists thought so.  It's similar, but like the article says, Skwxwu7mesh language is more closely related to Shishalh then Halkomelem.  I've been told one difference is that in Skwxwu7mesh, we take out the middle vowel in some 200 words.  Like temlh, meaning Red ochre, is temelh in halkomelem.  Things like that.  Theres more differences, but that's one I know of.  What I do know is, if Sto;lo elders, Cowichan elders, and Skwxwu7mesh elders got together, my elders wouldn't know exactly that the others were saying.  Can get the jist of it, but not exact.  Maybe like Spanish is to Italian?  Or Spanish to Portugese.  I'm not sure.  Something like that anyways. OldManRivers (talk) 08:26, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Spanish to Italian is pretty close; maybe more like Spanish and Portuguese, though Catalan, Portuguese, Provencal and other southern French, and the alpine Latin dialects can all speak pretty clearly with each other despite spelling variations; Norwegian, Danish and Swedish are like that (Icelandic's their ancestor but largely unintelligible to the others); from what I understand about St'at'imcets and Secwepemc'tsn they're pretty close, Nlaka'pamux and Siylx'tsn are closer to each other I think; but maybe it's only the gist; Halqemeylem to any of them is a big leap, more like from French to Spanish or English to German; unintelligible although related enough to get a quick handle on it, although with the German changeover it's a huge vocabulary shift; English is full of Romance and also Spanish-related borrowings, much moreso than German and it's largely without the usual German core-word base found in Dutch and the Scandinavian languages which make them more resemble German than English, although in tone and sensibility, and "logic of speech", to me they're a lot more like English in the way they make sense; the "tone of mind". Spanish, I always say, is an attitude. So is French, but in not quite so complimentary a way ;-) Italian, to speak it right, you have to have attitude, also Greek (which I've studied and got a small grip on).  The original question was if the Tsleil-wau-tuth were snichim or Halqemeylem by linguistic affiiliaton; I see, btw, on some website somewhere, that they belong to the Sto:lo Nation; but are they culturally more like the Sto:lo, or only politically, and culturally/linguistically they're an offshoot of the Skwxwu7mesh?  Or the Muthkweym? (sp?).  This is what I mean was about interlinking/intermentioning the articles, also with the Noxws'a7aq Nooksack (tribe), and the connection there which makes their language different from those around them, which afaik are closer to Halqemeylem and Straits Salish, Lushootseed south of that....you know the tradition which says the Chehalis people of southern Puget Sound are displacedf Sts'Ailes, which is why the "same" name; still not clear btw why the Chehalis are a group apart, afaik I know part of the Sto:lo and don't dconsider themselves culturally so; whereas the Douglas Band are really St'at'imc but belong to the Sto:lo as well as In-SHUCK-ch, which as you probably know is a group of small commuhnities/bands of the Lower St'at'imc; Lower Lilloet River people, as referred to in the old days....now there's a story I'll tell ya sometime...or find the ref for you to read about it; recommend Daphne Sleigh's People of the Harrison if you come across it by the way.....g'niteSkookum1 (talk) 08:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It can be confusing. Tsiel-wautulth is linguistically related to Halkomelem.  They are culturally related to Skwxwu7mesh.  But even though their language is Halkomelem, it's closer to Skwxwu7mesh then Musqueam is.  Now, the reasoning behind is this: they married each other so much.  From what I've heard, the Tsielwautulth came over and asked to stay there.  Our people said, sure, go ahead.  Then because we were neighbors, and because of so much inter-marriage, practically became Skwxwu7mesh.  Everyone in the village spoke Skwxwu7mesh and Halkomelem, and usually merged the two (because they are still similar).  There is another village near Whistler that was numbered around 300 and was a mixture of Skwxwu7mesh and Lil'wat, even there language was mixed.  Unfortunately the village perished in a landslide.  I guess all of the inter-connectedness needs more explain on the pages. OldManRivers (talk) 20:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It would help, for sure; and I've never been clear on the Katzie/Kwantlen/Kway-quit-lam (however that's rightly spelled) delineation as far as their language goes, i.e. Upriver or Downriver Halkomelem; theirs must be the same/similar to the Tsleil-waututh's branch, although that mixing stuff seems to go on all over the place in the modern era and as languages are alive, i.e. not quite dead, they do change. I know this has happened at the Colville Reservation, where Okanagan, Sinixt, Couer d'Alene and also some non-Salishan languages and craps of CJ have evolved a modern creole; the "official" dialect of St'at'imc is the Upper Fraser River Dialect, aka Fountain dialect, but it admittedly has Secwepemc influence; in fact Fountain as a community was formed by a Secwepemc chief as a homestead for families not in other bands (the site had been a private farm prior to re-aboriginalization after WWII; used as market gardens with Japanese internees as workers; DIA created a new reserve there afterwards, or rather restored an old one; anyway the old Lakes dialect of St'at'imcets is mostly undocumented, and the Halkomelem-influenced Lower Lillooet River dialect is also submerged within Lil'wat.  All the shared-culture/language things should definitely be included....part of my point about Nuu-chah-nulth-aht template is the issue of the Ditidaht being Nuu-chah-nulth-AHT, but not Nuu-chah-nulth, which is a political organization-cum-ethnic affiliation; FWIU the Ditidaht don't want to be in the same organization as their ancient enemies (the Port Alberni bunch, whatever their name is, not familiar with their group names as much as on the mainland).  The Shishalh-Squamish ties I know are important; I'm wondering about the Noxws'a7aq also....Skookum1 (talk) 20:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a important distinct between the Nuu-chah-nulth Tribal Council and the Nuu-chah-nulth. Nuu-chah-nulth means "People of All the Mountains and Rivers".  the -aht ending denotes your from there.  Nuu-chah-nulthaht, when said properly, means you are of that.  It's quite similar to Skwxwu7mesh-ulh, with -ulh meaning "our" or "ours", denoting belonging to.  It's used in other words, the biggest one being Sel’it’wetulh. (Translation: Belonging to the Sel’it’wet)  Thus, People of the Inlet, or something.  Why it doesn't include mesh is a halkomelem thing, not a Skwxwu7mesh language thing.  I would include Dihidaht in the Nuu-cha-nulth category, with Nuu-chah-nulth being the ethno-group for all of it's people, akin to Kwakwaka'wakw, which means Kwak'wala speaking people.  It's all messy and crazy and complicated, and for sure needs to be fleshed out more. OldManRivers (talk) 03:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I know; the Ditidaht are apparently sensitive about the used ot the term Nuu-chah-nulth because it's ujsed as synonymous for that tribal council they don't belong to for thei aforementeiond reasons; apparently Ditidath is a separate dialect but I'd guess (?) no moreso than between Kyuquot to Tla-o-quiaht and so on; Makah's almost the same language, I think, and needless to say blood relations; anyway it's Ditidaht sensitivies, picked up somewhere in a book or online, that I'm working around. As a group, historically, i.e. in old sources, they were asll the "Aht", as all their group names end that way i guess.  Like Hawaiian kanakamaoli - local guy - becoming the word, in shorttend form, for Hawaiians in North America in the old days...."homey", pretty muchSkookum1 (talk) 07:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Template discussion
Just creating a section header to break up the page, discussion here continued from previous, sort of. Just wanted to note, at this point, that the First Nations on Vancouver Island is still in wide use and I don't think it's suitable; Kwakwa-ka'wakw First Nations and Nuu-chah-nulth-aht First Nations do exist but aren't in place (I took the liberty of including the Ditidaht with the Nuu-chah-nulth, hence the -aht ending). Not up to it right now, running through all existing pages and supplanting them; but I guess until the Coast Salish one is assembled it can wait.Skookum1 (talk) 22:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

My overall idea is to create a template for all the culture, history, and political stuff. Thus, Template:Nuu-chah-nulth, Template:Kwakwaka'wakw, Template:Coast Salish, and Template:Skwxwu7mesh. Akin to Template:Indigenous peoples of the Pacific Northwest. I've included the First Nations government articles, (____________ First Nation) along with the cultural group also characterized and can be classified as a nation. Actually, these are the actual nations, not the administrative band council organizations. Since when is JUST the government, the entire nation. OldManRivers (talk) 03:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

ref Gitxsan and other group/sections/articles
Have you looked at the many Gitxsan articles and how they're organized; no "house" and clan and organized village system like up there, which is built into the general category, but also all the bios of the anthropologists and sources; for which there's a huge literature; as there will be for Kwakwa'ka'wakw; and lots of personal bios of artists, writers etc; I think also for the Tsimshian, the Wet-su'we-ten (sp?) and Dakelh and related articles are a bit more scattered but will have the same extensiveness when fleshed out; James Teit relates to all this as well of course, as with Franz Boas and all the rest of them, including Curtis. Somewhere I've got by the way a large collection of digitized photos my mother took when she was a girls' counsellor at the Alert Bay residential school after the war; she quit over some dispute over the way the girls were treated but she has always refused to discuss the details; my mother is a model of decorum with any business/official matter (she became a politician, needless to say, out of that sense of propriety...); anyway they're really great images; I offered them to U'mista but the response was that they were going to be mostly pictures of kids from other areas than around there; I just wanted them to have a good home; the hard copy images are back with my family and the digital versions are at least on CD somewhere (not with me); but they might yet be on one of the orphaned hard drives I've got here, which I'm transferring stuff unto my "new" Mac from; I'll see if I can find them; with the dates known, roughly, of my Mom's time there, it might be possible to figure out potentially who some of the many images are of; you can tell from the pictures my Mom had a good time with them; she was a basketball jock, ex-popular high school type, really fun-loving California-raised; what I'm suggesting is from here tone you wouldn't know if she had witnessed anything more than simple emotional brutality over, say, speaking their own language, anything "improper". Mom's got great poker face; could be, but you just can't say; but definitely somebody with an aversion for scandal, and I don't mean of the political variety; really straight-raised California I should also say, straight-laced and protestantly proper (Methodists I think, down there; up here United), conservative desipte being liberal-minded; kind but stiff; for her to quit a job at all on a matter of principle of that kind; most likely even disputing the mnilitary-like barracks life and drills, not letting them be children....I knew from looking at the pictures that the girls in the pictures she'd made happy, or were open and happy around her; it makes me sad thinking what else might lie behind the photos, having worked on a reserve full of such smiles which covered much darker things going on.....anyway, would love you to see them I'll see over time if I can dig them up, maybe they're on one of these drives yet somewhere; sorry for the family digression, I've been doing my version of sweetgrass ;-). Later. It's 4:38 amSkookum1 (talk) 08:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Weiwakai/Laich-kwil-tach
Just remembered I'd asked you about this, I'd noted your spelling of Weiwakai and wondered if that was preferred to Laich-kwil-tach, which is what the current article is; still no Cape Mudge First Nation. I thought there was a difference, with some Weiwakai living in the Campbell River reserve and some weywakum on Cape Mudge; or not? It's also a bit more complicated with the K'omox now Kwakwa-ka'wakw-ized as to which template they should be on; both I suppose. It must have been the Kwakwa'ka'wakw template you fielded, I'll look; maybe that's the name of the draft one I wrote....nope fixed itSkookum1 (talk) 23:02, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I honestly don't know much about these guys. Southern Kwakwaka'wakw, and on the lower ranks so not much goes on from these ends.  Just accounts from Skwxwu7mesh side in the war between Coast Salish and yi'xwilhte x .  But within the potlatching and rest of the kwakwaka'wakw, they are the Weiwakai and Weiwaikem.  I've seen it spelt the same around their area's too.  I think the Laich-kwil-tach is the anthropologist spelling of Ligwildaxw, the name for all of the southern tribe.  To be honest Skookum1, I know very little about this matter.  OldManRivers (talk) 04:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
 * They're the subject of Chiefly Feasts: The Enduring Kwakiutl Potlatch, a really nice coffee table book published by the American Museum of Natural History and no doubt orderable online. Mandatory for your collection, boyo, even if about the southern group; fabulous illustrations, great photos and text, used to have a copy.  Detailed and done with close consultion with the Legwildok - the spelling used in the book.  It seems that Yuculta and Euclataws might come from the Skwxwu7mesh or Halkomelem forms; these are the historical forms used in sources in whiteman history.  Couldn't see how they came from Legwildok or Laich-kwil-tach or Ligwildaxw, as you give the proper Kwa'kwala spelling.  Proper relatively speaking; Laich-kwil-tach is a spelling I got from their website, which is why I used it; tie AMNH "Legwildok" was written in consultation with the Cape Mudge people; it is, in particular, a book from the Wewakai perspective, and covers their ritual and ceremonial and some of the historical politics of the potlatch in great detail. And explains the Weiwakai/Weywakum ting; can't remember if it explains the integration of the K'omox people. Also, because southern, another group you wouldn't know much about I guess.  From what I understand those in Campbell River live among the Weywakum in the Campbell River Reserve; none on Cape Mudge, which is I think Weiwakai only although some are in Campbell River; point with the K'omox is they were formerly Salishan and are still, I think, related by blood and ties to the Sliammon and Homalhco, the Mainland Comox groups.  BTW have you looked at Pentlatch?....geez I wonder if there was ever a Pentlatch Indian Band historically; implies an article if so; but certainly a people article woth expanding/writing at some point; you must have seen Stephen Hume's columns on them and their language, mayube?  Can't remember if I turned you on to Somena and its talkpage, and since I'm dropping interesting readings/issues/questions if you haven't seen it already.....and then there's http://www.dickshovel.com/two.html and http://www.dickshovel.com/two2.html (think I got that right); www.dickshovel.com is probably worth poking around....and I should dig up the altnews sources I had during the Oaxaca Crisis (see APPO and think "self-government").  Anyway, treat yourself, get the Chiefly Feasts book; might be in the North Van or West Van library.  Another time I'll ask for your thoughts on Boas, got some comments about your maps and have a myspace page to revamps for someone.....Skookum1 (talk) 07:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * PS; the "on the lower ranks" thing I think is the legacy of the politics the book talks about; the Weiwakai see themselves as top dog, and proudly indepdennt of the northern groups: I know they left the area to move into what had been K'omox turf but I suppose the verb there might be "fled" or at least "exiled" and it had to do with age-old conflict with the main central groups; they'd been out by the Fort Rupert peoploe, who remain(ed) their allies and still with political alliances (so t he book says)/ some great war that ended with their migration to the head of Georgia Strait, I dot'n know on what timeline but within the last few hundred years. Come to think of it - without doing original research - an article covering "population landscapes" historically is appealing - things like the Shishalh/Skwxwu7mesh/No7wa'saq  links, the Chehalis-Chehalis relationsip, the settlement/conquest of the Legwildok/sp and their assimilation of the K'omox, and some chronicling of the wars adn raids around the Strait; one horror story from the fur trade period gives an eyewitness report of a massacre of the Qualicums by the Haida, but aside from the lurid appeal of war and politics there's enough to maybe make a History of the peoples of the Georgia Strait (without being ethno-specific so as to include the Southern Kwakwa'ka'wakw...or Gulf off Georgia, which is my preferred term....there's no name for the whole body of water, is there?  Did I ask you this before re the Whulge thing?  But I'll tell you what - a native-told book covering the emerging of the "Nations of the Gulf", including aborfiginal sources as well as what's in the "period sources" (and there's lots of it) would be a best-seller.  Sharpen your pencil.  Damn, the things I could write if I had a regular paycheque to do so, huh?.....non-natives are really intersted in teh way things were here before, including the war/migration and movin' around stuff; rich material, fascainting period and area relative to tribval/national war histories elsewhere.  Sure, better to focus on positive aspects of native history and culture, but the idea is that the stories get people interested in finding out about the peoples gets 'em interested.....gives people dcontext, relates it to similar experiences elsewhere, common hunmanity etc.  And a fascinating period, as the Legwilddok migration suggetss; the extinction of the Stuwix, the Athabasakn migration southward (the Chilcotin), the expulsion of the Sekani from the North Thompson by Nicola's grandfather, the wars between the Sinixt and Ktunaxa and others, the places wiped out in The Dyings.......we've got a lot of details going back into the 1600s and beyond plus all the volcano stories, Dimlahamid et al.; it's amazing what can be dated, if only roughly.  You've seen Cole Harris' The Resettlement of British Columbia and its population theories I suppose?  Anyway I'll go to the map stuff now.  Skookum1 (talk) 07:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Diseases
I'm looking for sources or any information about a epidemic that swept through this part of the world before Captain Vancouver and Captain Jose Maria Narvaez came into Burrard Inlet. I remember reading it somewhere, I think on another wikipedia page, about a pandemic that came up from Mexico brought by the first Spanish colonizations. It was quite some time before Vancouver or Naraez, I think, because the population size recouped pretty good by then. (There were still thousands around when Vancouver and Naraez came, unlike later on with smallpox which reduced the population to 300.) My people also have stories of germ-warfare, blankets with disease coming up on the beach. Anyways, I'm wanting to add it to the history section and looking for citable sources. OldManRivers (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 20:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Try Cole Harris, "Resettlement of British Columbia." He has a bunch on epidemics there, and I'm pretty sure he discusses some that happened before direct contact. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 21:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * An excellent read, although some gaffes here and there, but as far as population history goes it's unrivalled for challenge the usual low-numbers count of official history; Harris' numbers should be mentioned in Demographics of British Columbia and History of British Columbia and such. The particular epidemic OMR is asking about swept into BC via the Plateau and/or California around 1670, as I recall, maybe a bit earlier; there have been several since, including a few between the first one and the Vancouver/Quadra era.  Many as big as the great one of 1860-62 but nobody was around to write up the account as in the 1860s.  Another big one that always comes to mind was in the 1820s/1830s which first hit hte Lower Columbia, then the Fraser, some kind of hemorrhagic fever, like ebola or advanced influenza, brought in by a mysterious trading vessel, which was referred to as "the Mortality"; guess I've mentioned it before...anyway, Harris' book has lots of juicy stuff in it, I'll be interested in OMR's reactions to the academic analyses, aboriginally-sensitive though Harris and the other authors in the book try to be.....Skookum1 (talk) 22:16, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'll be sure to check those out. My teachers and my uncle also told me about a disease that spread through out our rivers before 1492.  Something to do with the salmon.  They got really skinny, no meat on them, and sometimes when you ate them, people would get sick and die.  This is pretty harsh considered we ate salmon for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  Imagine if like, carbs became contaiminated and on one in North America could eat carbs.  (Okay, granted, L.A., and West Vancouver, Kitsilano, and Yaltown would survive...lol).  OldManRivers (talk) 22:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Before 1492....conceivably volcanic, or something of course oceanographic; when was Garibaldi's and Cayley's last eruptions? Would screw up the water......Skookum1 (talk) 22:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

History break off
As I've mentioned before, I discussed breaking off the history section into it's own article. I've worked on this. Obviously if that whole thing was added to the main Skwxwu7mesh page, it would make it way too long, thus the needed for more articles. I would like to ask for any copy editors to check over my work on the page I made to test everything out, and also for tips, suggestions, and idea's to expand the history section. I would also make note of the Colonization section: This is where I need help. I need more sources for discussing the notes I left there. Fur-trade, gold-rush, and other events happening in or around Skwxwu7mesh that would obviously have impact on the people. I'm looking for other sources for specific things and hope to go through my texts on the theft of Stanley Park, and the Kitsilano. I mean, all of Skwxwu7mesh territory was stolen, but there is more documentation on those specific places. The 60's scoop I'll deal with since most people don't know about that and pick up some books to cite so there are no problems. I guess that's all for now. Thanks! OldManRivers (talk) 17:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Someone else...maybe it's History of the Duwamish tribe or one of the Puget Sound groups anyway, already has a split article. One thing, though - the empty section 1492-1790 "Before Official Contact".....I've never understood why 1492 has ANY relevance at all on this side of the continent, it's even a mythical date as there were others from Europe who hit the continent's Atlantic shore for centuries, 1492 is just a p.r. game on both sides now; but out here it's utterly irrelevant.  Why does it even appear on a Skwxwu7mesh page?  Unless there's something happened here (well, there, since I'm in Nova Scotia right now) in 1492, the exact-date has no bearing on even divisions of this page.  It reminds me of Joanne Drake-Terry's book about the St'at'imc; she spends half her time talking about native affairs/history in other parts of the continent....I guess it was a way of filling up pages, because there's not all that much in her book except whining ("Time out of Mind: The Theft of Lillooet Lands and Resources" I think....it's on the St'at'imc page refs I think.  It's not like Columbus' misrule of the Caribbean or the impact of the colonization of eastern North America and Central America that ensued had any effect on the Skwxwu7mesh; yeah, eventually the 1670 plague and the arrival of Quadra, but again that's not 1492.  Columbus is treated as a bogey by the 500 Nations; but he's a paper bogey, and by many of us is regarded as a joke and a bit of a conspiracy to cover up non-governmental visitors and fishermen and settlers to the New World; Columbus is a justification for Empire, but he wasn't t he first European to know about or to visit the New World; so why make a friggin' big deal about that date?  It's near-fictional in its importance, except in the way it's been propagandized.....Skookum1 (talk) 17:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be like me writing an article on Lillooet and writing about something that happened in Moose Jaw; or if on my ancestral village in Norway (Skudeneshavn) talking about the Moorish conquest of Spain or the arrival of the Mongols in Bulgaria.....Skookum1 (talk) 17:40, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Geez, calm down Skookum lol... It was just a date I threw up there because I wasn't sure about putting "Time immemorial - 1790".  There were some events that I'm also looking for like volcanic eruptions in the distance.  Not Skwxwu7mesh territory, but nearby. This would obviously have some effect on the weather, and seeing a large black cloud everywhere got raise a few stories.  Then the smallpox that came up, and the fish disease that hit way before contact.  The Anti-Columbo stuff is backlash rhetoric against mainstreams perceived illusions about history.  Regardless if other Europeans hit North America before he did, the invasion didn't get underway until he hit.  And the history rhetoric is about Turtle Island as a whole.  Apart of indigenous resistance movements across this part of the hemisphere, and such.  Yeah, what impact did he really have on the Skwxwu7mesh.  Not much, if at all any.  But the history books for the most part play it a bid oddly, as you no doubt know.  I'm not set on it the history page, but 515 years of resistance for indigenous peoples of the America's is not something made up, and exists in the hearts and minds of a lot of indigenous, as solidarity in the movement and others movements.  That's all I'm going to say about that issue because I don't feel like going any further on it.  OldManRivers (talk) 19:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, I went and did it. OldManRivers (talk) 02:44, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks good, but i think the small remaining history section in this article could use some work... it doesn't make sense to have four sections, each with a sentence or two, but i'm not sure how to combine all that into one paragraph either. - TheMightyQuill (talk) 15:43, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * OH YEAH! Forgot about those sections.  I'll add a couple sentences to each of them sometime today when I get a chance.  I was going to before I made the move, but I forgot abotu them...lol OldManRivers (talk) 20:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

More name discussion
And not sniping, but note that the Duwamish and other Washington-state Salish articles do not use Lushootseed spelling/characters.....Skookum1 (talk) 17:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * There written by American's who persist on that spelling. Plus, a lot of those indigenous peoples use that spelling over their own phonetic alphabet (well, for official things, but internally, yeah they use their spelling, but external it's a different story.)  Where as north of the 49th parallel, it's different.  We've discussed this before with other nations along the coast, and other articles worldwide that use different phonetic alphabets in English-wikipeida.  Skwamesh (Squamish) or Skwxwu7mesh (Sḵw x wú7mesh).  I know some articles in English wiki do change it to English sounding, but there is no English equivalent of Sḵw x wú7mesh, with the closest probably being Skwxwu7mesh (with out the accented marks).  I also have sources that use Sḵw x wú7mesh.  Not sure what else I can say.  OldManRivers (talk) 19:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, actually, Squamish is the English equivalent of Skwxwu7mesh, you may claim it's not and apparently it's not p.c.-correct but most people, really, wouldn't see the difference; nativization of names is fine, but don't derogate previous well-intended attempts to approximate native pronunciation, e.g. Sechelt/Shishalh, Kumsheen/Camchin. And as for the Americans who persist in "that spelling", bear in mind many of them are Native Americans. I did raise the issue of indigenous spelling vs conventional names/spelling ("names" as in Okanagan vs Syilx, Shuswap vs. Secepemc) in the Indigenous people's project talkpage, re what to do about new articles; I think I was struggling with Chilcotin/Tshilhqot'in at the time, in terms of whidch to use on what kind of article. I was told that for existing articles it's a grandfather-clause thing, unless there's an error in the title; the indigenous and alternate names are all to be mentioned, and have redirects, but the originally-used spelling stays in place; there are some where a Native American preference has held sway, as in Palus vs Palouse, but whoever penned Confederated Tribes of the Colville Reservation was definitely from there, and they used names like Columbia, Coeur d'Alene, Okanagan etc. Many articles also appear to have originated with linguists and ethnologists, which is why Thompson language is going to stay that way, instead of being Nlaka'pamux'tsn (or whatever the -tsn ending looks like). The point is, as in most Wiki title debates, for the most commonly used or most recognizable name to hold sway, even if something else is technically correct. Also with links, the link is supposed to look like the target as much as possible, w/o any qualifiers after a comma or parentheses; this is why my concern about Coast Salish's first section where you've used native spelling/orthography, but the targets don't look like them and are in the "English" spelling, which is as the band/people in most cases themselves chose in writing of their artifcles; certainly thisi is the case with the Duwamish and Skokomish and Nooksack articles; bona fide Native Americans making their own title and spelling choices; so while I appreciate the spirit and purpose of your orthogrpahic agenda it has complications in relation to other wiki practices, and also to accessibility of information for those who don't know how to spell Now7asaxaq (and I still don't) or Syilx, or Sx'exnx and who know those people as Nooksacks and Okanagans and the Shackan band. I've done the best I can in embracing this point in the creation of new articles, and in the redlinks on my various tempalte efforts, although things like Llenlleney'ten and Tskwaylaxw I haven't gotten around to writing yet (High Bar and Pavilion peoples); but for standing articles the titles that are tehre will for the most part stand, unless there's opportunities to cfreate/shift titles when splitting govt/people articles etc. And links targeted to those articles (especially on templates) should look like the target. I'[m not raising cultural objections so much as explaining why they can't/won't be satisfied entirely; a massive renaming effort across the board to "nativized" article titles would be needed, and I don't think you'd get teh support, either from admins, or from Native American wiki contributors either. There's also the difference in diffrerent native swpelling systgems, even within Kwak'wala - I've seen three or four different native spellings of Mamalillaculla (how it used to appear on BC roadmaps) or anyu of the Nuu-chah-nulth names; the ones I wrote their articles with I got from the Tribal Council and band websites; but I note youu have different spellings, likewise with teh Kwakwaka'wakw ones and I did thte same with the Shuswap and Tshilqot'in and other stubs I created Tletinqoxt'in eg. (prob.l not spelled right); I cant' help it that several Nlaka'pamux bands choose to style themselves the Fraser Canyon Indian Administration, they chose that name themselves. Shouldn't we respect that, or do we find a Nlaka'pamux name for their quasi-tribal council?Skookum1 (talk) 03:32, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * See .Skookum1 (talk) 16:02, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Weetama festival etc.
I googled this tonight and realized it's not a faclity, as I'd thought, "just" a festival, and hopefully given its tourism context the participation of fthe Skwxwu7mesh and Lil'wat in its planning prevent it from being too "cigar store" in the way it's received. I just think that, wehther the aritcle is Weetama or Weetama Festival, its relatonship to the Olympics suggests such an article would have a fairly high priority (I'm not an Olympics booster, please note). There's other important Skwxwu7mesh articles needed, and myself I think the Wild Spirit Places are more interesting; it's just I wanted to consult you befrore startng a stub for Weetama. I've also thought the Stein Voices for the Wilderness Festivals are historically important, both to the environmental/parks agenda but also in the recognition of FN sacred places as preserves, hence Ts'ylos and others since the Stein was set aside. I guess I'm also curious as to your opiniono of the mportance of Weetama wthin the FN/Skwxwu7msh scheme of things, and if you had any considerations you'd like to see in any article on it.Skookum1 (talk) 03:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Um, I'll try to answer each of your points separately because for me they are quite different...lol
 * The Wild Spirit Places is something that came out of the Land Code development. It was highlighted more with the Witness/Ustam Project, something coordinated between Band Council politicians, a few community members, the local environmentalists community, and a bit of the Vancouver arts community.  The project officially ended when the Band Council bought the TFL from Interfore.  I have my own things to say about this, but that's a whole different story.  The Land Code bussines was to outline designations within the band council government for corporations and governments to allocate and secure more land for resource development.  Imperialism at it's finest I say.  in Skwxwu7mesh snichem, the Wild Spirit Places are called, Xay Temixw, or sacred land.  It's not a pre-historical term, but rather something translated from "Wild Spirit Places".  It has significance, but not as much.  I think, the wild spirit places, are valid and have value, but the Wild Spirit Places, is something kind of different.  In the Wild Spirit Places, places like the Ashlu and Callaghan Valley were said to be "Wild Spirit Places", but then the politicans were quick to sign agreements as long as their was a percentage cut to these lands (Ashlu Power Project and 2010 Olympic Village).  But other places of historical and spiritual significance, like some island in the Howe Sound, some mountain ranges, some valleys, some lakes, etc. are important and have spirits that live their and used for ceremonial purposes by Skwxwu7mesh.  These also include Vancouver related area's like Xwayxway in Stanley Park and Senakw in False Creek.
 * I have never ever heard of this festival. Oh it's complete bullshit. I'm amazed at how much comes out these 2010-junkies mouth and what actually happens, plus how much is not known by the people.  Canadian society has the media to keep it government accountable (which seems to be failing with more homogenized corporate media), but Bands/First Nations have nothing of this sort, especially ones with near 3500 membership (considered quite large for BC).  Basically, no one knows about this festival.  It's sellouts involved.  And it's has not a whole lot of value to most Skwxwu7mesh.  It's like the olden days with the show indians who pretended be indian when the white men were around, but were more like white men when the indians were around.  Ah crazy crazy world.  Thanks for letting me know about this though.  I'm working on some educational articles I'm publishing with my people and I'm trying to keep track of what's going on in the name of our people without the people involved.  OldManRivers (talk) 08:06, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, that's exactly why I came to ask you first; I've alwasy suspected Weetama is "cheese", as in cheesy and fake, one of the fake-"festival" promotions Whistler trumps up to sell hotel rooms; and in this case wrap themselves in the multicultural "we care" banner, when they reallly don't. Whistler is one of the richest towns in Canada, only 20 air miles from the poorest (Mt Currie, Skatin etc) and while some Whistler employers have made a point of hiring FN people and also getting FN kids in ski programmes...(Nancy Greene, when she owned her hotel there...on the other hand both could be seen as pre-p.r. for her later Cayoosh Resort proposal...) and untl the Big O came along they'd shown no interest in aborginal history or anything of the kind; there's stories and stories I could tell you, including how Whstler High School got started so Whistler kids wouldn't be subjected to "cultural differences"by having to go to school with Lil'wat kids and/or the strapping but not latest-fashion-equippad farm kids of the Pemberton Valley.  Whistler has started Mozart festival just because other ski resorts do, not because they love or understand Mozart; "culture" n Whistler is only a product and part of teh "brand".  By its press, Weetama was painted with all the wrappings of legitimacy, cultural and political, and how "it" (I thought they meant a facility) would become a cornerstone of intercultural education and understanding yada yada yada yada.  But I guess "cigar store Indian" sums up Whistler's approach to it, if not the attitudes and intent of the FN people participating.  What about the Skwxwu7mesh cultural presentatoins at Caplano Canyon and - ?? - Grouse Mountain.  Cigar store, or more legitimate?Skookum1 (talk) 14:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The Witness Project was probably the most authentic because it was about building a connection, not putting on a show. As for other thing, I don't know of anything that's good for representing.  Capilano Suspension Bridge is cheezy, and yeah I just don't know about anything else.  OldManRivers (talk)

Spelling
The name can be spelled Sḵwx̱wú7mesh or Sḵwx̱wú7mesh using the Unicode character COMBINING MACRON BELOW after the "x", and even after "k", to give the equivalent of "ḵ". This totally avoids using markup to underline the "x". I haven't made the change, since the name of the article seems to be already somewhat controversial, but I offer it as a way to avoid "It appears incorrectly here because of technical restrictions."--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:49, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Good idea! I've corrected the title. —Remember the dot (talk) 18:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Wow, thanks for the move. I was going to do it but had reservations I guess.  Partly because when I move things, I mess things up a lot, and secondly because I wasn't being "bold" enough to do it.  Thanks!  OldManRivers (talk) 19:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I appreciate it, too; I could have moved it, but people can be sensitive about the name of their Nation, and I wanted to make sure there weren't objections. I had already modified it on Native countries of North America.--Curtis Clark (talk) 01:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Audio
I think the recording actually says [sχʷχʷúʔməʃ ] rather than [sqʷχʷúʔməʃ]. The IPA "q" stands for a stop, and the article about the language also says that the underlined ḵ is a uvular "Stop and affricate", but in any case what I hear on the recording is just a fricative, that is, the ḵ and the x̱ in Sḵwx̱wú7mesh are identical.--91.148.159.4 (talk) 17:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm the one who created the audio file. I don't know IPA so thanks for pointing it out.  k on it's own is different from k w.  Naturally, the second has a "wa" kind of sound after the k kind of sound.  Same goes for the x .  OldManRivers (talk) 08:15, 10 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, it's clear that k is different from k w. The problem is that, as far as I understand from the Sḵwxwú7mesh language article, k w is supposed to be different from x w, too. I think they sound the same on the recording (on second thoughts, I think there is a difference, but at any rate it's not a plosive(affricate?) vs fricative thing as that article says; I'm not sure precisely what it is, my first impression more like a uvular vibrant versus a velar fricative). I know nothing about Sḵwx̱wú7mesh, but I do deal a little with phonetics. If you're a native speaker of Sḵwx̱wú7mesh, I guess the pronunciation must be correct (maybe it's a matter of dialect?), but perhaps you learnt it as a second language (after English)? --91.148.159.4 (talk) 19:17, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I am learning it as a second language. I know nothing about linguistics.  I'll have to have a listen to the audio file again and see what's the problem.  Funny thing is, it is a hard word to say.  You have to relatively difficult sounds next to each other (hence the 7).  In any case, the ḵw and x̱w are supposed to be different.  Skw-xwoh-mesh would be a basic way of writing it.  I don't know anything in any other language that is a similar sound.  Sorry that doesn't help? lol  OldManRivers (talk) 07:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, it helps me as far as my curiosity is concerned :-), but the question is what helps the article, of course. As for the article - I don't know. Maybe you should get more feedback from people on the WikiProject Phonetics here, and if other people besides me have doubts like this, then you could record it again or record someone you know who speaks it as their first language. I'm sure it's terribly hard to pronounce correctly, this is so unlike English (or any familiar European language) that I'm sure I wouldn't be able to get it right even after years of learning it. Best,91.148.159.4 (talk) 17:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I think you're expecting a much higher consistency between spelling and pronunciation in Sḵwx̱wú7mesh language than prevails in most languages. English aside (we all know how closely its spelling fits its pronunciation), I have heard the Spanish word música pronounced both ['musika] (by Mexicans) and ['muʰika] (by Venezuelans). The dialects are for the most part mutually intelligible. Perhaps OldManRivers mispronounced "Sḵwx̱wú7mesh", but it would be interesting to know if a native speaker would flag it as a mispronunciation.--Curtis Clark (talk) 19:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I can tell you they wouldn't. But that's my word, you'd have to ask one of the two dozen people who know the langauge. lol OldManRivers (talk) 19:43, 12 May 2008 (UTC)