Talk:Squeak

Comments
How does the release of Squeak 1.1 under Apache License make Squeak 3.8 which the OLPC image is based on open source? There are still the signatures of a lot of authors missing. The same goes for Open Croquet.

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The article says that Squeak is Open Source but I'm not sure that's true. There are numerous web pages containing arguments both ways. The Squeak license does not appear to be an approved Open Source license and does not meet the Free Software Foundations guidelines. At least one site I looked at said that Squeak was not included in the Debian linux distro because the license didn't meet the Debian Free Software guidelines either. -- I've updated the sentence in question and I believe it more accurately reflects reality now.

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A Zooming User Interface? Since when. I think this is incorrect --ph

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Are there other programming languages or "programming environments", being developed presently which have squeak-like features? From what I know, there is croquet, based on squeak, and alice [] based on python (more oriented to 3d interactive(or not) programs).

Squeak Free Software
I looks like a version of Squeak is available under the APSL2 license. http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.smalltalk.squeak.general/102320

Its in the list of GPL-Incompatible, Free Software Licenses. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/apsl.html


 * I had no idea we needed the FSF's permission to "use and improve" existing software under a given license.


 * The article says "There is some debate as to whether the Squeak license qualifies as free software or not, due to the presence of an indemnity clause.". That should be updated because the Apple Public Source License (APSL) version 2.0 qualifies as a free software license. You dont need the FSF's permission, as it says on the title of the page, its the FSF's opinion. Chrismo 07:50, 2 August 2006 (UTC)


 * What is this "indemnity clause" (the link doesn't help)? Should be made clearer. I've checked the license and there is this:
 * 5. Indemnification. You agree to indemnify and hold Apple harmless from any and all damages, liabilities, costs and expenses (including but not limited to attorneys' fees and costs of suit) incurred by Apple as a result of any claim, proceeding, and/or judgment to the extent it arises out of or is connected in any manner with the operation, use, distribution or modification of Modified Software, or the combination of Apple Software or Modified Software with other programs; provided that Apple notifies Licensee of any such claim or proceeding in writing, tenders to Licensee the opportunity to defend or settle such claim or proceeding at Licensee's expense, and cooperates with Licensee in defending or settling such claim or proceeding.
 * This is indeed an odd clause. Maybe, the article should say: "... due to the presence of a clause stating that you should indemnify Apple from any costs in case someone sues them because of a derivative work of Squeak." I'm not altering the article because I'm not sure if that's what all this legal talk means. - Drysh 18:58, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
 * All the above is long obsolete and Squeak Smalltalk is licensed as MIT license since... well a long time ago. 207.81.185.126 (talk) 03:41, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Spanish book?
Why link to a Spanish-language book from English wikipedia? Are there no English books about it? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.162.73.132 (talk) 18:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

Logo
The (fortunately not very Disneyish) logo is available on its author's page, he says "Feel free to download [the images] and use them for links etc." so I don't see the copyright issue that led to removal of the logo. The German article has it.--87.162.28.112 17:58, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

I (tim Rowledge) am the creator of the Squeak logo. As the comment above points out I specifically encourage people to use the logo for Squeak related links, articles etc. If it makes people here happy, I explicitly give permission for wikipedia to display a version of the logo on any and all Squeak related pages. 207.81.89.117 (talk) 01:53, 21 November 2008 (UTC)tim Rowledge

MVC is a user interface?
I was very surprised to read this:
 * Squeak has a number of user interfaces: Model-View-Controller (MVC), the traditional interface of some languages such as Smalltalk-80 and Java, and for which Morphic is an alternative. This is for programmers who wish to use this older type of interface.

MVC is an architectural pattern and design approach, not a user interface, an API, or a library. The UI is the "V" and part of the "C". The "M", by the very point of MVC, is not UI. To describe MVC as a whole to be a "user interface" confuses the entire section. I've tagged it as such. -- ShinmaWa(talk) 06:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)


 * The MVC user interface of the Smalltalk-80 system is still around in Squeak and known as MVC, the pattern is named after the original implementation/user interface, not the other way around. It is correct however that the Java reference, as well as the reference to some languages is incorrect, MVC is either a pattern or an implementation, never a language feature.
 * See also http://st-www.cs.uiuc.edu/users/smarch/st-docs/mvc.html, which is referenced on the MVC page, note how they talk about a framework.
 * 87.66.206.239 21:50, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * It sounds like we are in agreement then. MVC, being either an implementation of the pattern as described by Dr. Burbeck, or the pattern itself, is NOT a user interface and is not a language feature (which is what I was driving at).   I don't deny that there is an MVC framework in Squeak.   I'm quite positive there is.  My issue is in calling it a "user interface" and implying that other languages are using Smalltalk frameworks.  That's very misleading and blurs the distinction that you aptly pointed out between the well-known architectural pattern and the less-well-known original ST80 implementation that gave the pattern its name.  -- ShinmaWa(talk) 17:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * MVC is indeed what one of the possible user interfaces in Squeak is called. When someone talks about creating an "MVC Application" in Squeak, they usually mean they will be using the MVC user interface framework, as opposed to the Morphic interface. A google search for MVC Squeak will show that - an will uncover pages such as this one: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1767, which has quotes such as: "In Squeak, MVC is available as one of the user interface environments to work within", and  "The Smalltalk-80 MVC user interface is the original GUI with overlapping windows, later imitated by the Macintosh and Windows.".
 * Yes, MVC is a pattern, but it is also a user interface option in Squeak.
 * To verify it for yourself, download a copy of Squeak, play around with the default Morphic interface, then create a new MVC project, and see for yourself that in Squeak it is not just a pattern, but an actual distinct user interface. 60.242.104.179 12:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * ShinmaWa, because the framework is a derivative of the original Smalltalk-80 framework that introduced MVC, it is both an MVC and the MVC framework. The source and the various tools of the Squeak environment refer to it as "MVC" (e.g. "Open MVC Project" vs "Open Morphic Project" menu items ), and it is known as MVC to every Squeak user. Whether MVC-as-a-pattern is more widely known than this MVC implementation is rather irrelevant in this context, as this article is specifically about Squeak and the lexicon of Squeak community. But this isn't to say that the original article text is not problematic. It would be more correct to say that Squeak includes a number of user interface frameworks rather than "user interfaces". It also could do a better job explaining that new for outsiders meaning of MVC.  Hopefully it does in my revision. Vassili Bykov (talk) 04:12, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The Smalltalk community usage of MVC is almost certainly the original one. It simply refers to the classes used in implementing a very early (possibly the first) graphical user interface system and the pattern community usage is simply a derivative of that original name. Smalltalk MVC dates back to at least 1980 and the release of the Smalltalk-80 system. You might like to refer to the August 1981 edition of Byte magazine. 207.81.89.117 (talk) 01:58, 21 November 2008 (UTC)tim Rowledge


 * I've edited the article to reflect the fact that MVC doesn't work in recent versions of Squeak. One guy, | Sungjin Chun, seems to be keeping MVC alive in Squeak, but he forked it at version 3.8.1.  MVC is completely broken in Squeak 4.*.   NCdave (talk) 14:17, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The MVC interface is indeed alive and reasonably well in Squeak Smalltalk as of at least 2020 and probably earlier. It is used as a drop-back UI when the Morphic UI gets too confused.
 * tim Rowledge 207.81.185.126 (talk) 03:39, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Squeak Squeak
I actually came to this page looking for the noise rodents make. There should be a page about that. --Cleveland Rock 15:42, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Out of curiosity, what verifiable information would be included in such an article, beyond its dicdef? -- ShinmaWa(talk) 17:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * See | http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/squeak. NCdave (talk) 14:20, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Interval Research Corp.
Why does every history of Squeak skip the phase of the project at Interval Research Corp in the mid-1990's? I actually worked on the project at that time. Although I myself was not a major contributor, I do remember that a lot of major contributors were there. (David A. Burgess)

ACM link goes straight to a paywall
The link to the squeak PDF links to the ACM portal which requires a subscription, I don't think wikipedia links should link to content that can not be viewed without payment. 77.165.209.212 (talk) 07:59, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
 * WP:PAYWALL --Cyber cobra (talk) 08:32, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Examples
It would be really nice to have some basic examples of squeak code to give an idea of what the language looks like. It doesn't need to be extensive, like Ruby and most languages have, but just some basic syntax examples so that programmers who know other languages can get a general idea of what it is. 76.105.216.34 (talk) 19:49, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
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