Talk:Squirrel Scouts (The Scout Association)

Page name
The name of the page should be Squirrel Scouts - no one else is using this and the dab page can be moved. Victuallers (talk) 17:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
 * ... and no one has a picture of someone in their kit? Really? Victuallers (talk) 18:08, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Northern Ireland Squirrel Association
Should this article be merged into Squirrel Scouts (The Scout Association)? The talk page redirects to Talk:Squirrel Scouts (The Scout Association)? --Bduke (talk) 01:13, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
 * No! NI Squirrel Association was a separate organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.42.15.60 (talk) 05:32, 8 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed, but the NI Squirrel Association merged into Squirrel Scouts (The Scout Association), so the material will be seen and read more there. --Bduke (talk) 05:46, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Advertising and promotional material
Much of this article consists of promotional material quoting the organization's internal documents and promotional material and is not notable according to Notability. Much of it is of dubious fact given that the Squirrels program was only launched in September 2021.115.42.6.85 (talk) 04:15, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Merge article into The Scout Association
This article should be merged into the Scout Association. The content repeats parts of the article on the Scout Association and is entirely related to the Scout Association. The subject is a part of the Scout Association and not a separate organization. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.42.13.142 (talk) 22:33, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Oppose, this organisation has received a great deal of courage in sources news media independent of the subject, some of the more technical aspect's of the organisation structure are covered by enternal sources but that's fairly normal and about giving a more complete understanding of the subject to the reader. That's before you consider that these kind of subsections of youth organisations generally receive their own articles.--Llewee (talk) 23:45, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * The discussion is now at Merge article into The Scout Association. --Bduke (talk) 00:59, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

All Spin & Hype The program is only three months old yet this article, from the day of the program's launch, presented the program as if notable. The program has not existed less still proven itself over any significant time. All the figures on participation are unaudited claims from internal sources. The early article content was clearly all straight from publicity material advertising the program and some of the referenced media sources even refer to and quote such. Nearly all the external sources are media reports referring to the program launch press releases and dated the day of the publicity launch, 9 September 2021. The article was created and content entered by just a few editors, again on the day of the launch on 9 September 2021. What a joke. The program was only just being launched and it was supposedly already notable enough for an article. Just a few editors have determinedly tried to maintain the original content and reverted any changes. Statements from media reports (based on press releases and promotional material) quoting nameless nobody claimed Squirrel leaders supposedly making statements about what the program will be and what was ""reportedly" done is journalist speak but such is presented in this article as noteworthy fact. The same few editors repeatedly revert edits to restore such nonsense. Much of the detail wouldn't pass the "Who cares?" test of being of interest to anyone other than those already absorbed in the arcane club rituals that deter many. The Squirrels program plays on the name 'Scouts' for notoriety as it has no reputation of its own. The article title makes it very apparent that the program is obscure and not of notability. No one enters the complex title "Squirrel Scouts (The Scout Association)" looking for the program. Entry of "Squirrel Scouts" leads to a disambiguation page of numerous linked articles with one link being to this article but the redirect could just as well and more logically link to the appropriate section on the Scout Association article. There is nothing noteworthy about this program sufficient to warrant a separate article to its operator, The Scout Association.115.42.13.142 (talk) 02:35, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Unsubstantiated claims
Please explain why you believe that this article "appears" or "may" have been paid for.--Llewee (talk) 23:58, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Llewee's "perfect sense" version with comments

 * "Many aspects of the Squirrels program such as group neckerchiefs, award badges and evening meetings resemble the scout movement's [Suggests relationship. Confuses the Scout Movement and The Scout Association which are not the same. See separate articles.] more senior sections [Suggests relationship and that Squirrels is a junior section of the Scout Movement when it is really an early childhood program of the Scout Association and nothing further can be established from the sources. The Scout Association doesn't define the Scout Movement. Just because something is run by The Scout Association doesn't make it part of the Scout Movement. Not everything done by The Scout Association is part of the Scout Movement. If the Scout Association holds a fundraising dinner, buys a garbage bin, prepares accounts, cleans its buildings, registers a trailer or runs a stall, are all these things part of the Scout Movement? The Scout Movement existed for years before and without Wolf Cubs and other junior programs. Baden-Powell wanted Wolf Cubs to be separate to the Boy Scouts and to have their own name, visual identity and program, separate to the Scout Movement while supplementing, preparing for and feeding into the Scout Movement. For decades the Boy Scouts of America (and others) did not adopt Cubs and, when they did, they ran Cubs as a separate feeder to but not part of the Boy Scout Movement. Cubs, Beavers and Squirrels don't make the Scout Promise or undertake to obey the Scout Law, so they are not Scouts and part of the Scout Movement but a feeder to it. The Scout Movement was established and existed for years before Cubs and other pre-scout programs and the Scout Movement didn't grow to include them, as some claim but, rather, some people tried to to redefine of the Scout Movement and changed Wolf Cubs to be "Cub Scouts" and called Beavers "Beaver Scouts" and Squirrels "Squirrel Scouts". These programs may be worthy, however, they are not Scouts but something else-scouts, pre-fix scouts or pre-scouts programs.] However, some aspects of scouting [Suggests relationship] are remodelled to suit members young age such as a simplified promise, shorter sessions [What is the assumed length of scouting sessions?], earlier finishing times [What are the assumed scouting finishing times?] and teaching moral lessons through indirect means."

The vagaries and suggestions of these statements, created by use of comparative statements, could all be avoided by direct statements of facts.115.42.13.142 (talk) 17:14, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Llewee desperate to remove "owner"
This propogandist editor repeatedly removed reference to The Scout Association being the "owner" of the program. The Scout Association is the owner of the program and asserts copyright to the logo and trade mark and intellectual property rights to the program. Why hide the truth? The propagandist editor substituted an euphemistic term and claimed it was "perfectly acceptable" but did not deny that the relationship was one of ownership. Why mince words and obscure the truth? It is one thing to add another descriptive term but unacceptable to remove the honest direct term. Perhaps this editor could provide a declaration by The Scout Association that it is not the "owner" of the program and the intellectual property of the program. The same editor has been desperate to add a section heading of "Visual identity" and add obscure detail about the design of the logo, branding, colour schemes and program materials and statements by "Representatives" of the design studio. Why is this editor so desperate to obscure the truth?115.42.1.13 (talk) 20:03, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

The sources cited in this article refer to commercial terms of "branding", "demand", "costs" but, most significantly, also to groups having "permission" to run a Squirrel group. Permission is a licence to use property, evidencing that the program is "owned" by The Scout Association. Why then does this propagandist editor so desperately and dishonestly want to remove the word "owner" and hide that The Scout Association is the owner of the program?115.42.1.13 (talk) 21:03, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Issues templates
Bogger, Thanks for your declaration and contributions. However, what you "believe" is not sufficient to unilaterally remove issues templates, certainly not without discussion. In more time, with more contributions from more editors, citing a wider range of sources, particularly more from outside the organization, the issues could be removed.115.42.4.52 (talk) 14:18, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Merger from Northern Ireland Squirrel Association
@Bduke has recommended that Northern Ireland Squirrel Association be merged into this article. I concur with this recommendation. Please discuss recommendations or disagreement with this merger. 15:22, 17 March 2023 (UTC) Demt1298 (talk) 15:22, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

RFC on introduction to article
Should this article open with?

A.Squirrels is a programme for four to six-year-old infant children operated by The Scout Association in the United Kingdom.

B.Squirrel Scouts, often shortened to Squirrels, is the youngest official section of Scouting operated by The Scout Association in the United Kingdom. The core age range for Squirrel Scouts is four to six years.

C. Something else (please clarify) Llewee (talk) 22:24, 23 July 2023 (UTC)


 * Please see WP:RFCBEFORE
 * You really need a discussion and hopefully reach consensus without going to RfC.
 * Once the discussion has developed and if an impasse is reached - that's the time to post an RfC. Lukewarmbeer (talk) 06:41, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Procedural close - per above. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 08:43, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Multiple Issues?
Could someone (other than me and 115.42.15.60) audit the multiple issues at the top of the article. I would, but I fear I may be the one accused of having a "close connection", or the recipient of "undisclosed payments", (spoiler alert I have no close connection - I have volunteered at one event in Gilwell, and am an unpaid volunteer in Scouting Ireland). I think there's oodles of references to show notability, the language is suitably neutral and well referenced. But I would say that, wouldn't I. -Bogger (talk) 08:33, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Being bold and doing it myself. Bogger (talk) 20:04, 8 February 2024 (UTC)