Talk:St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador/Archive 1

Not to be confused with Disclaimer
Why do we need a page-top disclaimer "Not to be confused with Saint John, New Brunswick"? Is it really that much of a problem? The article title makes it clear you're talking about Newfoundland and Labrador. On the Saint John, New Brunswick page, similar information is relegated to a note at the bottom.--WPaulB 17:42, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Logo stjohns.png
Image:Logo stjohns.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 05:19, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

"Most bars per square foot"
Per square foot of WHAT? This is a pseudo-statistic. What is the denominator used to calculate it? And where do other streets, in other cities, rank so that the originator of the statistic can conclude that "George Street has the most bars per square foot", whatever that means? Mathematically, it would seem to mean that George Street has small bars, and not much else.

Similarly, "most bars per capita". Which city has the SECOND MOST? How and when was this figure quantified? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.105.61.109 (talk) 00:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Please see my post on Talk:George Street, St. John's, though I am certainly not the originator of the sentence in question. AshleyMorton 02:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Climate Graph
I added a climate graph. Numbers are rounded, readers can click the source link to see exact numbers; you can add that note if you like though I don't think it is entirely necessary.

If you think the graph is too distracting, simply change class="wikitable collapsible" to class="wikitable collapsible collapsed". That will reduce the graph to just the blue bar with the words "St. John's Climatological Data [show]", and it's pretty self explanatory on what the reader should do there. :)

The climate graph has been a little project of mine and I encourage feedback to continue to improve these graphs. :) Thanks.

More here.

vid 01:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Miscellany
I've moved or removed most of the elements of the Miscellany section. I think the "lowest crime rate" reference belongs in the Demographics section - does anyone have a statistical reference for this? I have no idea where the "most bars per square foot" reference should go.Vulcan&#39;s Forge 01:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Section removed. I found a StatsCan reference for crime figures this week; hope to add some better text and some figures to support the Demographics Crime subsection soon.Vulcan&#39;s Forge 02:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Radio
VOCM is still the official callsign of "K-Rock 97.5"; the reference to "VOCM (AM and FM)" needs to be maintained. Bearcat 03:23, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The article states that the finder of new found land was the first to be "known to have reached mainland America." Isn't Newfoundland an island? see List of islands by area. Seabhcán 13:56, 16 May 2005 (UTC) yes of course it is, i love it too —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.151.220 (talk) 20:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Article name should be St. John's, Newfoundland

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

No consensus to move page, per discussion below. -GTBacchus(talk) 19:45, 2 December 2007 (UTC) This article should be renamed to the format St. John's, Newfoundland. There is no need to add the full, verbose name of the province, when the city could be quite adequately disambiguated by using the name of the island on which it is located. (note 1.1 million ghits for "St. John's, Newfoundland" OR "St John's, Newfoundland", but only 400,000 ghits for "St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador" OR "St John's, Newfoundland and Labrador")

WP:NAME says "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature", and that principle has not been applied here.

St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador should of course be retained as a redirect.

See also discussion on renaming of related categories at Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_November_26. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:07, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose move First, the google hits survey is faulty as all the uses of "St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador" will show up in the search for "St. Johns, Newfoundland". In other words, the 400,000 is included in the 1.1 million. But in any case, I disagree because the name of the province is Newfoundland and Labrador, and the trend it now towards using that name. It's similar to Trinidad and Tobago — we refer to San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago, not "San Fernando, Trinidad", even though the second would be a shorter and completely satisfactory way of disambiguating the name. We do this because the common usage is to use the name of the political entity "Trinidad and Tobago", and we tend to use DAB terms for place names that are political entities. We use Honolulu, Hawaii and not "Honolulu, Oahu" (first is political, second is geographical). Similarly, it's common usage to use the political term "N&L" when referring to places in that province. "Newfoundland" is generally only used, as far as I can tell, in historical documents or in discussing the history of the province, and occasionally when discussing the place as a geographical island as opposed to a political entity. Finally, from WP:Naming conventions:

The canonical form for cities in Canada is City, Province/Territory (the "comma convention"). ... For the easternmost Canadian province, the canonical form is "City, Newfoundland and Labrador"; although they might be referred to as such in casual conversation, a city's proper legal designation is never just "City, Newfoundland" or "City, Labrador".
 * — Snocrates 12:29, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The naming convention for Canadian cities, where it is determined that disambiguation is necessary, is City, Province.  Not sure that I agree that the name of this province is "verbose" -- that's the name of the province.  Skeezix1000 (talk) 15:47, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Oppose. St. John's, Newfoundland is already a redirect to the current article, so having to type "and Labrador" is unnecessary. St. John's is the capital of a province called "Newfoundland and Labrador". There is no province called "Newfoundland" anymore, and articles should reflect that. We don't have "Victoria, Vancouver Island" so there shouldn't be a "St. Johns, Newfoundland" (referring to the island) either. vıdıoman  (talk • contribs) 16:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Oppose. The common usage may always remain, but not all English-speakers use or know the common usage "St. John's, Newfoundland". Web hits are also elusive - there are plenty of websites by people who were born on the Island of Newfoundland, and just call their birthplace the non-politically correct "Newfoundland", not "Newfoundland and Labrador" because it's a personal site and doesn't have to meet disambiguation standards.  An encyclopedia is not a place to use relatively common usage.  It's for everyone, so the more "verbose" correct name should be used.  The searching problem won't really affect places in Newfoundland anyway.--WPaulB (talk) 17:23, 26 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Oppose. We need to stick to the correct name here. The only way this move would be acceptable is if there were a consensus to move every community on the island to "City, Newfoundland" and every community on the mainland to "City, Labrador"; St. John's cannot be disambiguated differently from any other disambiguated community in the province. And that consensus simply isn't going to happen. Bearcat (talk) 04:36, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Did anyone read the naming guideline? It doesn't say "use what's legally correct". And if people are using St John's Newfoundland on their own sites, that's a pretty good indication of where the common usage is. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:13, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment But it's not as clear-cut as you are making it out to be. You might be right if people hardly ever used the full name, but there are vast numbers of websites that use either. When both are used extensively, it just makes sense to use the legal name by default, especially when that conforms with naming conventions about places in Canada that were adopted by consensus AND it conforms to what is done with naming other articles with similar problems, as with cities in Trinidad and Tobago: to replicate your google search: "San Fernando, Trinidad" = 46,500 hits; "San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago" = 13,500 hits. Subtracting the second from the first, we still have a more than 2:1 advantage for "San Fernando, Trinidad" being used, but the WP article is at San Fernando, Trinidad and Tobago. If you are adamant about a change such as this, we need to work on changing many more too. I know this is a type of WP:WAX argument, but sometimes it's worth seeing what the general pattern in is WP. Snocrates 12:17, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment St. John's, Newfoundland already re-directs to St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador. I see absolutely no point in moving the article. If people use St. John's, Newfoundland it will wind up in the same place. It really doesn't matter. vıdıoman  (talk • contribs) 11:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment The people who use it on their personal websites are not necessarily using it in enyclopedic fashion, and they don't adequately represent the entire English-speaking world who will read Wikipedia.--WPaulB (talk) 19:34, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Oppose. The standard is city, province. While it's quite true to say St. John's, Newfoundland, we need a standard for city naming. We are not about to have Sydney, Cape Breton or Victoria, Vancouver Island either. Double Blue  (Talk) 07:37, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the . Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Date of Establishment
I have removed this section, partly because it is poorly written and badly supported, and partly because it may violate NPOV guidelines. I was able to find the referenced article in the Ottawa Citizen (reprinted in the National Post here) supporting the St. John's claim, but the cited article opposing it was entirely in French and no translation was provided. This may be vandalism related to a current debate in the Canadian media, resulting from a statement by a federal minister which basically ignores any claim St. John's may have as the oldest city in North America. Additionally this point has already been debated on this talk page (see sections above) and the article was reworded to indicate the oldest English-founded settlement in North America.Vulcan&#39;s Forge (talk) 00:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The Battery
I did a quick start for The Battery" to start the ball rolling on this article.

Please contribute.

Mdavidbaird (talk) 00:34, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

LEAD-IN
Okay, based on the information/recommendations of the rejection for Featured Article status. I've rewritten the lead-in. I tried to give a brief intro to St. John's (1) geography and importance, (2) population, (3) history, (4) current state of affairs. Please rewrite or edit anything to improve the lead in, but we really need to keep everything well sourced (which I THINK i've done...). Theres no reason that we can't improve the quality of this article - it should be featured!

Does the lead-in sound good/better?

If this is good, can we remove the "lead-in requires expansion" tag on the page??

Mdavidbaird (talk) 14:20, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, major re-write of Education section completed and sourced. Mdavidbaird (talk) 19:17, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Check out Moncton and Thunder Bay, Ontario (And any other FA or GA or similar level article; I chose those two because they're similar sized cities) for ideas on how to improve this one. Generally, every statement should have a citation. That is, for each sentence, or at least each paragraph, there should be a citation. Featured article criteria can also help.


 * The article is doing good in terms of pictures, but you have lots of lists that have to be converted to prose.  vıd ıoman  19:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with that, I was actually using the Moncton page as a more-or-less template for the information in this one. Another good page is Vancouver, while the size of the cities is significantly different, its still a featured page and using it as a model for sports, education, and other information will be helpful. Agree 100% on the lists. Mdavidbaird (talk) 19:48, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

St. John's, Antigua
Why should St. John's redirect here and not to the capital of the independent state of Antigua and Barbuda? Ethnocentrism? Gerry Lynch 14:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Population? 203.148.251.155 10:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

When searching for "St John's" in Wikipedia's search engine I am presented with several results including the capital of Antigua and Barbuda. I don't think this is a problem any longer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mercerch (talk • contribs) 13:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Oldest city in Canada?
According to Paul O'Neill, (The Oldest City: The Story of St. John's, Newfoundland, 2003, ISBN 0-9730271-2-6.), the city was established by Royal Charter of Queen Elizabeth I on August 5, 1583 and the first permanent settlers arrived in 1605. If anyone is going to change the article, please quote a reliable source. 152.1.111.242 17:33, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

From http://www.stjohns.ca/cityservices/archives/history.jsp

The late sixteenth century saw the rise of Britain as a significant world naval power and with it, their dominant presence in the Newfoundland fishery, particularly in the area ranging from Cape Bonavista in the north to Cape Race in the south. St. John's recorded the first permanent settlers in this period with a family named Oxford establishing a plantation probably in the area west of Beck's Cove in the early 1600's.

The first permanent settlers arrived in the early 1600's. until someone can show that they arrived before 1608, then we shouldn't say that St. John's is the oldest city.

Also, if St. John's is the oldest city in Canada, can anyone give us the date? I mean the city is allegedly older than 400 years old. In that case, there should have been celebrations for its 400th anniversay. Can anyone clarify? Officialy, how old is this city?

St. John's is not the oldest city in North America. Mexico city is.
 * Clarify the definition of city used in these claims. St. John's had an anniversary celebration of 500 years in 1997, but technically, that's years of continuous yearly European settlement, permanent or otherwise.  It certainly was not a city in 1497 by population standards or infrastructure.  That's simply when Newfoundland, and possibly St. John's harbour was discovered by Europeans (technically the Vikings were first, around the year 1000 but that wasn't a permanent occupation).  Because it was the most easterly port in the area and had an ice-free harbour, it was quickly turned into a place from which commerce flowed in the form of fish. It wasn't incorporated as a city until 1921, by the Newfoundland government.  It's a '500 year old city', beacuse it's a city now which was founded or deemed in existence for 500 years in some form.  The first pernament settlement attempt was in 1583, but I can't find any sources which state St John's was permanent until around 1610.  It is one of the oldest permanent European settlements in North America.--WPaulB 15:11, 6 May 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by WPaulB (talk • contribs) 15:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

If you're gettting that specific, then wouldn't Tenhoctitlan, the predecessor of Mexico City on which it stands with an estimated population of 80,000, be the oldest city in North America? In fact there were more than a few Native American establishments which were home to 25,000 people or more, so they would technically be declared cities. Secondly, I'm from St.John's and have lived there my whole life. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.139.229.180 (talk) 18:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The article was changed in mid-2007 to specify "oldest English-founded settlement in North America" and provided a reference. The history is interesting, but already accounted for in the article to support the usage we chose.--WPaulB (talk) 16:51, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Most easterly
It says "the most easterly city in North America". But the North America article says Greenland is in North America, and that article calls the capital Nuuk a "city", and states the longitude, which is further east. Nuuk is just one example; Greenland has smaller towns further east that might be called "cities". Art LaPella (talk) 05:43, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Picture
If someone can get a picture of St. John's for the main display picture that is square instead of rectangle (like the one that is there now) it will be much better because now you can't really see the picture because of the shape, and you can't make it any bigger because it makes the box that it is in to wide. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jordo72 (talk • contribs) 02:10, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Culture
There is no "Culture" section on this page and for a province and city that is known for having such a distinct culture it should be a necessity. If I new where to get articles on the culture of St. John's I'd create the section myslef but I'm not sure where to go to get the info so if someone one wants to look up this information or send me a link it would be great! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.116.120.203 (talk) 21:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Merge tag
Please note that Wikipedia does not do, and does not want to start doing, "Demographics of individual city" spinouts. Bearcat (talk) 08:04, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Get rid of the seperate page.--Jordo72 (talk) 03:36, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism
Someone (?) at 142.162/163.?.? has been vandalizing this page a lot this month from an IP that changes within the IP group for nbnet.nb.ca. I can't prove it's one person, so I'm not sure what to do except revert.--WPaulB 18:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
 * On the third paragraphe of the intro there is obvious vandalism, except when I go to the edit option the vandalism doesn't appear in the text box, I'm not sure what to do there. 66.46.186.82 (talk) 19:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal
It has been already proposed in February 2010 to merge Demographics of St. John's into this article. There was support for the merger at the time, and I support it as well as no need for separate article for a city of such moderate size. --Elekhh (talk) 07:00, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

saint john's name
saint john is traditionally the preferred saint and festival amongst fishermen from this region in northern portugal, fishermen here visit newfoundland since very early periods and tales about newfoundland are common part of fisher mythology. it would be quit acceptable or predictable they named a new land saint john, if that was the case. the relation with Norman and Breton fishermen also makes historical and cultural sense. - pedropvz 17:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * so the full name is Saint John's? Jackzhp (talk) 00:42, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
 * No. Newfoundlander&#38;Labradorian (talk) 01:14, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
 * I think pedopvz is implying/asking if the name comes from fishermen from Portugal, and the answer is no, it did not have its association with Saint John until after British settlement; I don't know the details, do you N&L?Skookum1 (talk) 07:24, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

Importance
This article does not have the requirements to be a High-importance article. It barely meets the requirements of a Mid-importance article. Njaohnt (talk) 00:56, 17 March 2014 (UTC)
 * It doesn't? It's a provincial and former colonial capital and was of major strategic importance in WWII.  Re WPCANADA being a provincial capital is more than enough to quality it for high importance, even "top".Skookum1 (talk) 03:36, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

"Oldest English-founded" or just "oldest"?
I'm in St. John's right now....on various shops and on the harbourfront history displays it consistently says "oldest city in North America"....a music shop on water is "the oldest shop on the oldest block of the oldest street in North America". Was Quebec founded earlier?Skookum1 (talk) 17:45, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * San Agustín in Florida, founded in the 1560s. Now Saint Augustine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.85.2.56 (talk) 15:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

San Agustín was founded in September 1565, St. John was founded on 24 June 1497 70.71.172.54 (talk) 07:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Quebec City was founded and officially inhabited in 1608, so it is definitely older than St. John's. 192.226.181.116 (talk) 15:41, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20150103195732/http://www.ianvardy.com/sinjawns/ to http://www.ianvardy.com/sinjawns/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20091008103631/http://www.ed.gov.nl.ca:80/edu/postsecondary/privatedir.html to http://www.ed.gov.nl.ca/edu/postsecondary/privatedir.html

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Oldest settlement?
Usually, historians say that the oldest settlement in north america is St.Augustine in Florida (around 1521 if I'm not mistaken). I'm not saying St.John's is not the oldest settlement in North America but it needs to be verified.

The confusion might be due to the fact that the criterion used usually is continous occupation of the settlement, something that would need to be verified in the case of st.johns. 5 december 2005

I would argue the above statement. Usally, American historians say that oldest settlement in north america is St.Augustine in Florida. However, St. Augustine wasnt founded until 1561, 64 years after St. John's. The St. Augustine wikipage, states that it is the oldest settlement in the USA, not North America. Bmpower 13:36, 5 December 2005 (UTC)


 * While I don't doubt that Americans and Canadians make these claims, both are wrong. Mexico City (Tenochtitlan) is in North America and is far older than either St. John's or St. Augustine. It was founded in 1325 and has been continuously inhabited since that date. Correction made. 76.195.223.230 (talk) 19:51, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

"24, 1497. His precise landing-place is a matter of much controversy, either Bonavista or St. John's. He went ashore to take possession of the land, and explored the coast for some time, probably departing on July 20. On the homeward voyage his sailors thought they were going too far north, so Cabot sailed a more southerly course, reaching Brittany instead of England. On August 6 he arrived back in Bristol.

The exact location of Cabot's first landfall is still unknown, because of lack of evidence. Many experts think it was on Cape Bonavista, Newfoundland, but others look for it in Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia, Labrador or Maine. We might never know the truth. His men may have been the first Europeans on either American continent since the Vikings: Christopher Columbus did not find the mainland until his third voyage, in 1498, and letters referring to a voyage by Amerigo Vespucci in 1497 are generally believed to have been forgeries or fabrications."

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Cabot

If St.Johns was founded in 1497, then it should be clear that John Cabot landed there. However in the article, it's not stated as a fact. Therefore we should reconsider the date St.John's was founded. We should find when the first permanent settlers came to St.John's.

Plus I found this http://www.stjohns.ca/cityservices/archives/history.jsp

"The late sixteenth century saw the rise of Britain as a significant world naval power and with it, their dominant presence in the Newfoundland fishery, particularly in the area ranging from Cape Bonavista in the north to Cape Race in the south. St. John's recorded the first permanent settlers in this period with a family named Oxford establishing a plantation probably in the area west of Beck's Cove in the early 1600's. "

Therefore I think we should remove the line that says that St.Johns is the oldest settlement in North America.

I agree that the line should be reworded, it sounds like it was written by a middle school student. There were settlements in North America many thousands of years before either Newfoundland or St Augustine. It should be changed into the oldest British settlement in North America. St Augustine was officially established, and claimed by Spain in 1565. If Newfoundland was not chartered until 1583 then it was not an official city until after St Augustine. Just because ships were in ports in the area does not make it a city, there was not even a population there until the 17th century.:Chuggy 08:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

St. John's became the oldest British colony in North America as, on August 5, 1583, Sir Humphrey Gilbert took possession of the region for England. The region was contested for many years - exactly how many is unknown - by French, Portugues, and Spanish fleets prior to this date. Permanent settlement did take place before this but because England banned permanent residents many people lived further inland and exact dates were not kept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mercerch (talk • contribs) 13:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

In the USA, it is usually Jamestown, Virginia that is claimed as the first permanent English settlement in the New World - this assuming that St. John's was not an officially established town, nor permanently settled prior to Jamestown's 1607 establishment, and that other, failed, attempts, such as the Lost Colony of Roanoke, cannot be reasonably described as permanent. Of course, Jamestown, itself, disappeared after the removal of the capital of Virginia to Williamsburg in 1699. Only below-ground, or excavated, archaeological remains exist today. Bermuda, settled accidently and unofficially (but no less permanently) by the Virginia Company in 1609, is the location of what is claimed to be the oldest continuously-inhabited English settlement in the New World, St. George's, founded in 1612. It may be splitting hairs to distinguish an unincorporated settlement from some sort of officially established municipilaty, but that may be part of what creates the confusion. St. George's is actually claimed, also, to be the first permanent town established by the English in the New World, and not simply the oldest surviving and continuously inhabited. This larger claim is based on the assumption that Jamestown was actually only James Fort, and the proper town did not develop from it until 1619, seven years after the founding of St. George's. Either way, the dates at which Jamestown and Bermuda were settled, and the periods for which their occupation could be said to be continuous are well documented, whereas when an actual town was established at St. John's, when it was officially established or incorporated, and when it's population became permanent are, based on the evidence (that the area of Newfoundland was claimed by or for England in 1583, that the Bay may have been called St. John's in the 1500s, that English fishermen fished off Newfoundland seasonally, and that what was presumably a single-family farm may have been located there, prior to 1607) provided in this article, completely unclear. Given that the majority of external publications that refer to the settlement of the Americas by the English mention Newfoundland as only seasonally inhabited by English fishermen, who made no permanent settlements there, prior to the founding of Jamestown (and make no mention of the town/city of St. John's at all, prior to that date), the assertion that St. John's is the oldest English-founded city in North America seems dubious, unless city is meant to disclude towns, or any other incorporated settlements not officially described as cities (St. George's, Bermuda, is officially a town). If this is the argument being made - that it is the oldest English New World city, rather than incorporated or unincorporated, permanent, continuously-inhabited...shall we say municipality, then that should be made clear by fixing the date of its founding after those of Jamestown and St. George's. Aodhdubh (talk) 22:30, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Please see the additional discussion under 'Oldest City in Canada', below. The oldest settlement argument is fairly well covered under O'Neil's book, citing both the 1583 and 1607 dates. In the interests of avoiding another edit war on the subject, please provide accurate references to conflicting date arguments.  You might also wish to limit the edits to indicating alternative locations for the oldest settlement, and allow the Wikipedia articles for those locations to provide substance for their respective claims.Vulcan&#39;s Forge (talk) 21:49, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

There are still claims made in this article about St. John's being the oldest city in North America and having the oldest street in North America that are dubious given that there were Spanish and Native American settlements and cities in North America long before St. John's was even been visited seasonally by European fishermen, let alone permanently settled. These statements should be qualified or removed. Arturoramos (talk) 12:49, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Having lived in St. Augustine since 2001, my note would be to add that the tour guides here state it this way: We were 'discovered' by Juan Ponce de Leon in 1513. But the city was not actually 'founded' until September 8, 1565 by Pedro Menéndez de Avilés on behalf of King Philip. Locals also 'claim' America's oldest street to be our Calle Aviles (Aviles Street). (See http://www.staugustinegovernment.com/sites/450th%20Main%20Site/450thMain.cfm) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.168.151.27 (talk) 01:17, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Please do not implicitly or explicitly limit North America to Canada and the United States of North America. Mexico and the caribbean islands are part of North America too, and have significantly older permanent European settlements and streets than Canada and the USA do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.85.4.178 (talk) 19:52, 16 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Are the statements not sourced? Newfoundlander&#38;Labradorian (talk)


 * The claim for St. Augustine as the oldest continuous European settlement in North America is not well-sourced, no. The link is currently broken, but finding it on the Wayback Machine at https://web.archive.org/web/20120112035128/http://tps.cr.nps.gov/nhl/detail.cfm?ResourceId=1028&ResourceType=District shows that it does not say what is claimed.  It (correctly) says that St. Augustine "is the oldest continuously occupied European settlement in the continental United States."  Santo Dominigo, Dominican Republic was founded in c.1496 and is generally cited as being the oldest continuously settled European city in North America.  See, for instance, http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/santo-domingo and  http://latinamericanhistory.about.com/od/historyofthecaribbean/p/santodomingo.htm  SumnerH (talk) 19:10, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Hatnote
nobody would confuse a city in Newfoundland and Labrador with a city in New Brunswick, especially since the title of this article mentions which province this city is in. SST flyer  05:10, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
 * With names so similar to each other, there certainly is potential for confusion, even if they're in different provinces. If we remove it won't be without clear consensus from other editors. Air.light (talk) 16:12, 19 June 2016 (UTC)
 * It is actually something that is confused very often. -DJSasso (talk) 11:30, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Climate of St. Johns
Vaselineeeeee, St. Johns does have a Sub-Arctic Climate, but it is very mild. I even spoke with the Weather Channel and they said it is a Sub-Arctic climate! AcelaHiker44 (talk) 20:49, 9 December 2016 (UTC)


 * Where's the physical source? Vaselineeeeeeee★★★ 21:05, 9 December 2016 (UTC)

History of Adherence to Canada
I've been told by locals about an election where Newfoundland had to decide between be a nation, be absorved by Canada or USA.

What is that history, and why is not in this article?

In any case, how is that this province become canadian? That should be told in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jgomo3 (talk • contribs) 20:49, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

No pictures with snow
I always find it interesting the lack of city pictures with snow. Is it the chamber of commerce who tries to tell the world that its always summer? The article states " 335 centimetres per winter season" so how about swapping out a picture of the city with snow as well for a bit of reality? Just a thought 2620:0:1000:5E01:CCF4:6631:9C69:CEA9 (talk) 17:02, 1 November 2017 (UTC)


 * I'm not really against this, but pictures of structures and streets that are buried in snow dont offer much encyclopedic value in my opinion. Winter is coming, if I see an opportunity to take a photo of value to this article, worthy of inclusion in a gallery or other feature, I will add it. Shhewitt (talk) 00:23, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131111034620/http://www.heritage.nf.ca/dictionary/d8ction.html to http://www.heritage.nf.ca/dictionary/d8ction.html
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20111103043048/http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm to http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm
 * Added archive https://archive.is/20121216045102/http://www.climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/winners/categorydata_e.html?SelectedCategory=60&submit=Submit to http://www.climate.weatheroffice.gc.ca/winners/categorydata_e.html?SelectedCategory=60&submit=Submit
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20041011090345/http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/nl/signalhill/index_e.asp to http://www.pc.gc.ca/lhn-nhs/nl/signalhill/index_e.asp
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081220141624/http://www.stjohns.ca/cityhall/council.jsp to http://www.stjohns.ca/cityhall/council.jsp
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20081220141624/http://www.stjohns.ca/cityhall/council.jsp to http://www.stjohns.ca/cityhall/council.jsp
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20080528120412/http://www.macleans.ca/education/universities/acomprehensive.pdf to http://www.macleans.ca/education/universities/acomprehensive.pdf

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