Talk:St. John's, Newfoundland and Labrador/GA2

GA Review
The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.''

Reviewer: Folklore1 (talk) 20:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

As I perform the review, I will be updating the following table. Please look for my questions, comments and recommendations below the table. Folklore1 (talk) 20:44, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Second opinion
As I've been fairly liberal with suggestions for improving this article, especially the lead section, I feel a second opinion would be appropriate. I'm leaning toward GA approval, after one problem listed in my notes about References below (see "Important" box) has been corrected. Folklore1 (talk) 18:07, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I will look through the article and provide feedback. – Quadell (talk) 13:04, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, the lede does not conform to the MoS. It's is fairly short for an article of this length, and it really only covers the history section. I would suggest a new paragraph or two in the lede, with roughly a sentence or two about each of the following sections: climate, architecture, arts and culture, attractions, sports, government, crime, transportation, and education.
 * Besides the lede, everything looks great. It's well-written and well-sourced. The remaining sourcing issue should be easy to fix, since that one sentence adds very little to the article anyway, and might as well be removed. Once that is fixed, and the lede is adequately expanded, I would pass this as a GA. All the best, – Quadell (talk) 14:49, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Personally I don't feel the lead needs to be further expanded. The intro focuses on the geography, history and economy, I think adding a sentence about each section in a few paragraphs would make it very choppy. The lead's length is consistent with other GA articles; Edmonton, Winnipeg, London, Ontario, and much longer then Coquitlam. Newfoundlander&amp;Labradorian (talk) 16:26, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, Manual of Style (lead section) states that "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." The geography, history, and economy sections account for less than half the article's text. I think it's clearly an inadequate lede... but it's really up to the reviewer, I suppose. – Quadell (talk) 19:06, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks to Quade11 for the second opinion, and to Moriori for improvements to the lead section. I think the lead now "flows" nicely, with Moriori's help, and satisfies MOS criteria: I don't think it's necessary to mention something from every section of the article in the lead; that would make it too long and cluttered.
 * able to stand alone--If space was limited, as often the case with a hard copy periodical, the lead section could serve as a stand alone stub.
 * summarize the most important points--History, demography, geography and economy are more important than some of the other information. I have not used the length of their text to measure their significance. Instead, I have considered the impact on the article if those sections were omitted.

I'm going to put the article On Hold briefly until the sourcing issue mentioned in my last "important" box is resolved. This can be done by removing the unsourced sentence, or providing a reference with sufficient detail for verification. When that last detail has been taken care of, the article will be ready for GA status. Folklore1 (talk) 19:53, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Lead section
The lead section should serve as an introduction and summary of more detailed material to be found within the body of the article. When I read the History section, I should not be re-reading the same text, such as the sentence, "In the Basque Country..." Folklore1 (talk) 00:59, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

"A series of expeditions..." Folklore1 (talk) 01:05, 27 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I've had trouble with the introduction. It had been shorter but the first person who reviewed this page said it was too short, they eventually helped me edit and expand it and this is how it turned out. I don't really know what to do with it. Newfoundlander&amp;Labradorian (talk) 01:06, 27 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I suggest the sentence starting "The name is believed..." in the first paragraph could be trimmed to "The name is believed to commemorate the feast day of Saint John the Baptist, when John Cabot sailed into its harbour on June 24, 1497." Then remove the subsequent sentences from that paragraph; these details belong in the History section, not the lead. Folklore1 (talk) 01:42, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Maybe the entire second paragraph should be removed from the lead section. Any material from this paragraph that isn't already in History should be added to History. Folklore1 (talk) 01:46, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

The third paragraph looks okay. It gives us a suitable introduction to the Economy section, without going into too much detail or using text repeated later. Folklore1 (talk) 01:49, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Took out the second paragraph. Newfoundlander&amp;Labradorian (talk) 01:53, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

My suggestion might have been a bit hasty. The first transatlantic flight and the first transatlantic wireless transmission were quite notable, so they might be something to mention in the lead. Briefly, of course, so the article doesn't repeat itself later. Folklore1 (talk) 02:03, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

1st paragraph of lead
Disregard my previous suggesions about the Lead. I'm going to discuss each paragraph of the lead separately. For the first paragraph, I recommend the following:
 * The first two sentences are okay. No changes.
 * The third sentence begins "The name is believed". This needs to be revised a bit, because too much of it is repeated in History. ✅
 * All of the fourth sentence, "A series of expeditions", is repeated in History. It doesn't need to be in the Lead. Remove it. ✅
 * All of the fifth sentence, "In the Basque Country", is repeated in History. We don't want all of this information here, so remove the fifth sentence. Due to its significance, some of this info needs to be part of the lead. I suggest adding a brief mention of the Basque fishing town to third sentence. Perhaps like this: Its name has been attributed to the feast day of John the Baptist, when John Cabot was believed to have sailed into the harbour in 1497, and also to a Basque fishing town with the same name. Folklore1 (talk) 18:57, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

2nd paragraph of lead

 * The first two sentences of this paragraph are okay. No changes.
 * The third and fourth sentences look awkward. I think this can be fixed by joining them with a colon where the third sentence currently ends at "19th centuries." Folklore1 (talk) 19:22, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

I don't care for the way the third sencence, "It remained fortified...", gets repeated in History. We could eliminate that problem and tighten up the second paragraph, possibly as follows:
 * Remove "the first plans being prepared in 1689" from the second sentence. ✅
 * Remove the third sentence. ("It remained fortified...") ✅
 * Revise the fourth sentence (currently starting "The British making use") with: British forces made use of St. John's fortifications during the Seven Years' War in North America, the American Revolutionary War and the War of 1812. Folklore1 (talk) 19:50, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

The text of the seventh sentence, starting with "During the Second World War", is duplicated in History. Perhaps it could be revised as: St. John's served allied needs in the Second World War by providing an air base for the U.S. Army Air Corps and a harbour for antisubmarine warfare ships. It should be moved up to follow my previous suggested sentence which starts with "British forces made use". Folklore1 (talk) 20:13, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

Sentence 5, "Guglielmo Marconi received...", and sentence 6, "In June 1919...", are repeated in History. Although these are notable points of history, maybe they should be omitted from the Lead. Folklore1 (talk) 20:19, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

3rd paragraph of lead
This paragraph looks okay. No changes recommended. Folklore1 (talk) 00:10, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

History
Early History - I think the presence of any First Nations prior to the European conquest should be mentioned, also if the area had been uninhabited at the time. No excavations, no nothing? --Poco4 (talk) 18:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

In the first paragraph of the History section, "(in Spanish, San Juan" needs a right parenthesis. Folklore1 (talk) 16:44, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

"oldest street in North America" in the second paragraph would be alright if the Water Street (St. John's) article contained a citation to the source of that claim. It doesn't. Please correct this problem. Folklore1 (talk) 16:51, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

What is the source of the quote: "the principal prime and chief lot in all the whole country"? Folklore1 (talk) 16:59, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * William Payne needs to be credited, in the article's text, with making that statement in 1627. Folklore1 (talk) 20:01, 1 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

In the 5th paragraph, see: "in 1705, and captured it in 1708" The "and" after the comma is unnecessary. This is just a minor nitpick. If you forgot about the "and" while fixing everything else in the article, I'd give it the nod for GA status. Folklore1 (talk) 17:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

"18th and 19th century" in the 6th paragraph should probably be plural. Folklore1 (talk) 17:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

Modern history - second paragraph has "St. John's served as a naval base during the American Revolutionary War and the War of 1812." The source given (No 20) does not mention anything later than 1790, other sources are needed. So what troops were stationed here, what was the city's role in both wars? --Poco4 (talk) 18:54, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

The last sentence of the History section begins with "99". I suggest recasting the sentence so it doesn't start with "99" or "ninety-nine". You'll find this preference mentioned in the Numbers section of the Manual of Style. Folklore1 (talk) 17:44, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

In the fourth paragraph, "had excluded other nations from most of the east coast" is unclear. I think "of Newfoundland" would be a helpful addition to the sentence. Folklore1 (talk) 19:54, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I revised the sentence for clarity, and so that the text doesn't just copy the source material. Folklore1 (talk) 15:23, 8 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

Geography
See "and on the Atlantic Ocean" in the first paragraph of this section. I'm sure this phrase actually means the city is located along the coast of the Atlantic Ocean rather than on the ocean itself. If you really want a link to the Atlantic Ocean here, you might want to recast the sentence. Otherwise, I suggest removing the phrase. Folklore1 (talk) 17:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

I ran into three consecutive sentences starting with "The" in the first paragraph of this section. Technically, that's not bad grammar, but it is boring. A possible fix: Replace "The downtown area" with "Its downtown area" to give the paragraph a little variety and to be more specific about which downtown area. Folklore1 (talk) 18:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

It's not quite clear to me where we're starting from when "the rest of the city expands". If downtown is the starting point, adding "from downtown" would help. I'm guessing that "to the north, south, east and west" means the city expands in all directions from that point. Folklore1 (talk) 18:15, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

How about recasting the first sentence of the second paragraph to start as: "Coniferous trees such as black spruce, white spruce, and balsam fir dominate the native vegetation." Moving "the" to the inside and replacing "is" with another verb makes reading the sentence so much more pleasant. This is an optional change, not required for GA status, but do consider it. I like to see variety in sentence structure. Folklore1 (talk) 18:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

Should "littleleaf linden" have a hyphen? Littleleaf and little-leaf linden both point to the article about small-leaf linden. Does Linden need an uppercase "L"? Folklore1 (talk) 18:35, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

The reference titled "Statistics Canada Population and Dwelling Count" does not seem to have any information supporting the sentence: "The city is the largest in the province and the second largest in the Atlantic Provinces after Halifax, Nova Scotia." Folklore1 (talk) 20:27, 1 August 2011 (UTC)}}
 * I found the census table that should have been used to support this text and replaced the erroneous reference. Folklore1 (talk) 22:47, 11 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

Architecture
In the third paragraph of this section, "The city council have" should be singular. Folklore1 (talk) 19:07, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

In the fourth paragraph, "beyond 15 metres, in area of land" looks like it should be "beyond 15 metres in the area of land". Folklore1 (talk) 19:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

"greater height, the first" doesn't look quite right. It needs to either be broken into two sentences or divided with something other than a comma. Folklore1 (talk) 19:16, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

What is the source for the "10 Tallest Buildings in St. John's" ? Folklore1 (talk) 19:20, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

In the third paragraph of this section, see "typically painted in bright colours, unlike most other parts of Canada". The cited reference supports the claim of houses with bright colours, but does not mention whether "most other parts of Canada" lack this characteristic. I suggest removing the unsupported phrase. Also, the article by Jeff Schlegel originated in The New York Times, not The Boston Globe, and the Times as well as its columnist should be given credit. Folklore1 (talk) 13:25, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

"Microsoft Word - 1832-01 LUAR FINAL_Proposed Office and Parking Bldg., 351 Water St. 2010 May 28.docx" is not a suitable label for this reference. This citation needs more detail to protect the source from the risk of loss to link rot. Folklore1 (talk) 13:52, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

Demographics
A colon would be more appropriate for "12 other communities,". Folklore1 (talk) 19:26, 28 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

The ethnic background of European settlers are displayed in detail. I think it would only be fair at least to mention the name(-s?) of the First Nation(s) residing in the city! --Poco4 (talk) 19:10, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Religion
The religion table might need reviewing. The referred source is no longer available (Found this page which seem to be the referred to 2001 census, although with slightly different numbers). It might furthermore not be clear to everyone that some table entries overlap each other, so it might be a good idea to implement a design that takes such a thing into account. Ozmonatov (talk) 17:41, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Picture: Text says "Catholicism is the largest religion in the city." Catholicism is no religion. It is a branch/denomination of the Christian religion.--Poco4 (talk) 19:10, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Last paragraph: "All major Christian sects showed a decline from 2001 to 2011 with a large increase in those with no religion from 3.9% to 11.1%" "Churches" would be a better term than "sects" as the latter usually refers to splinter groups. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sect) --Poco4 (talk) 19:10, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Economy
"connected to both to" should be "connected to both". "as oppose to what" should be "as opposed to what". "5.8 per cent, the highest amount" should be "5.8 per cent, the highest rate". Folklore1 (talk) 12:42, 29 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

The sentence starting "St. John's is also becoming" looks like it would be a good starting point for a new paragraph. Folklore1 (talk) 12:45, 29 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

See "as an entrepreneurial city, in a 2009 report". I recommend replacing the comma with a period and starting a new sentence with "In a 2009 report". Folklore1 (talk) 12:47, 29 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

In the first paragraph, see "a fourth development, Hebron, is expected to be producing oil by 2017". This is not supported by the reference titled, "NL Profile". Folklore1 (talk) 14:37, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

The citation titled "2010 - 2013 Corporate Strategic Plan" would be more helpful if it identified the relevant page or pages. It could also be improved with the full title, "2010-2013 Corporate Strategic Plan, City of St. John's" and the date, June 2010. Folklore1 (talk) 14:46, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅


 * opens fine for me. Newfoundlander&amp;Labradorian (talk) 02:32, 12 August 2011 (UTC)
 * After I corrected the security level of my anti-virus software, I was able to open the file and verify the GDP. Folklore1 (talk) 12:12, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

The citation to "Communities in Boom: Canada’s Top Entrepreneurial Cities in 2009" should include the author's name, Queenie Wong, and the date, October 2009. Folklore1 (talk) 14:52, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

Arts and culture
The sentence beginning "St. John's has a vibrant nightlife," is unclear, because the rest of the sentence and paragraph seem to be about the nightlife of a specific street rather than all of St. John's. Folklore1 (talk) 13:02, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That's where it's concentrated. Newfoundlander&amp;Labradorian (talk) 00:26, 10 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Suggested revision: "George Street, a downtown side-street above the western end of Water Street, is the predominant home of the city's nightlife." The second sentence should then be revised so that we don't have two consecutive sentences starting with "George Street". Folklore1 (talk) 13:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

The paragraph beginning with "The LSPU Hall is home" would look more pleasing if its first two sentences were recast to start with something other than "The". Perhaps a portion of the second sentence can be combined with the first. (Just a suggestion, not something I'd absolutely insist upon for GA status.) Folklore1 (talk) 13:19, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Museum
"The Provincial Museum of Newfoundland and Labrador" starts an awkward paragraph. I'm not sure whether the primary subject of the paragraph is the Provincial Museum or the Rooms. A rearrangement of the text would be helpful. Folklore1 (talk) 13:32, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Corrections have clarified the significance of the Rooms. However, the first sentence remains a bit awkward. It could be corrected by replacing the period with a semicolon. Alternatively, I suggest removing the comma and replacing the phase that followed it with: "in a building listed on the Canadian Register of Historic Places." Folklore1 (talk) 13:17, 1 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

Urban parks
"Bowring Park is located in the Waterford Valley and is one of the most scenic parks in St. John's." contains too much "is", making it tedius to read. I suggest: "Bowring Park, located in the Waterford Valley, is one of the most scenic parks in St. John's." Folklore1 (talk) 13:54, 29 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

"and is also the finishing location for the annual Tely 10 road race." should be broken into a separate sentence. Too much "and". Folklore1 (talk) 13:54, 29 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

"BPMPMain Report" is a dead link and needs to be replaced. Folklore1 (talk) 15:01, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

Sports
Should "starting in the 2011-2012" be changed to "starting in the 2011-2012 season"? Folklore1 (talk) 14:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

In the paragraph about the Tely, see "both male and female, it began in 1922". The sentence should be broken into two at the comma, or its structure needs to be recast. Folklore1 (talk) 14:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I broke the sentence into two. Folklore1 (talk) 18:40, 12 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

The citation to "St. John’s scores an AHL team" should include the name of the author, Brendan McCarthy. Folklore1 (talk) 15:11, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

"http://www.winnipegsun.com/2011/06/01/agreement-in-place-to-move-moose-to-st-johns" is just a url. It is not a proper reference. Folklore1 (talk) 15:16, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

"1972 MacDonald Brier Coverage on CurlingZone - Everything Curling" is a dead link and should be replaced. Folklore1 (talk) 15:26, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Alternatively, the information supported by this reference could be removed. Folklore1 (talk) 14:38, 8 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

Law and government
All five of the sentences in the first paragraph start with "The". Some restructuring would make this paragraph more comfortable to read. Folklore1 (talk) 14:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

In the second paragraph, see "in September, the current city". Perhaps the sentence should be broken into two where the comma is currently located. ✅ With that change, I would also recommend recasting the sentence about the mayor. Suggestion: "Dennis O'Keefe has served as mayor of St. John's since 2008." Folklore1 (talk) 14:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

The sentence about City Hall overuses "and". My suggestion for improving it: "The St. John's City Hall, located on New Gower Street, has housed municipal offices and Council Chambers since being officially opened in 1970." ✅ Or maybe reorganize it completely so it doesn't start with "The". Folklore1 (talk) 14:50, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

I changed 4 to four to be consistent with the Wikipedia Manual of Style. Folklore1 (talk) 14:56, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

In the third paragraph, the sentence beginning "The city is represented" runs on excessively, making it difficult to read. It should be broken into two sentences or reorganized. Folklore1 (talk) 15:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

See "Federal Government Departments and Agencies" in the last paragraph. Is this a title? Or should some of these words start with lower case letters? Folklore1 (talk) 15:06, 29 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

The citation to "Getting to know the premier" should include the name of the author, Steve Bartlett. Folklore1 (talk) 15:45, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

The meaning of "is one of six Progressive Conservatives who represents a district in the capital city" is unclear. Should this phrase be: one of six Progressive Conservatives, represents a district in the capital city or is one of six Progressive Conservatives who represent a district in the capital city? Folklore1 (talk) 13:58, 3 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

"New Democrat Lorraine Michael represents..." starts an awkward, run-on sentence. I suggest rearranging it as: "Lorraine Michael, leader of the New Democratic Party since 2006, represents the district of Signal Hill-Quidi Vidi and is the only member of her party elected to the House of Assembly." Folklore1 (talk) 14:03, 3 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

Crime
The phrase, "was one of the safest cities in Canada", in the first paragraph is too vague and seems to lack neutrality. Who said it? When? Where was this opinion published? Folklore1 (talk) 15:22, 29 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

In the second paragraph, see "has increased, in 2009". The sentence looks awkward. Perhaps it should break into two sentences at the comma. The next sentence in this paragraph has a similar problem and should also be revised. Folklore1 (talk) 15:30, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

See "St. John's has the seventh-highest metropolitan crime index and twelfth-highest metropolitan violent crime index in the country." The time period (year) of these indexes should be included and "has" should be changed to "had". Folklore1 (talk) 15:43, 29 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

Transportation
In the second paragraph, "providing access to the neighbourhoods of those streets relatively easy" seems a bit awkward. I suggest "providing relatively easy access to neighbourhoods served by those streets." Folklore1 (talk) 15:55, 29 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

"Pitts Memorial Drive has been criticised" needs reference to a source. Folklore1 (talk) 15:55, 29 July 2011 (UTC) As this unnecessary sentence has been removed, the problem has been resolved. Folklore1 (talk) 12:44, 1 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

The Transportation section currently states that the Trans Canada Highway is "the third longest national highway in the world". However, the reference, "TransCanadaHighway.com Highway Overview", claims it is the longest, not the third longest. Has there been a change in the highway's status since 2008, when the reference was previously accessed? Folklore1 (talk) 16:05, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

"Metrobus Ridership Statistics" did not provide verification for the 778 bus stops and 68 shelters mentioned in Transporation. An additional reference should be given in support of the bus stops and shelters. Alternatively, the counts of bus stops and shelters could be omitted from the article. Folklore1 (talk) 17:15, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

"Metrobus Dot Com — Routes" is a dead link and should be replaced. Folklore1 (talk) 17:21, 2 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

Education
This section mentions "a post-secondary ocean and marine polytechnic". Is a Canadian polytechnic the same as a Polytechnic (United Kingdom)? I live in Baltimore and am unfamiliar with the term. Folklore1 (talk) 17:56, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

There are citations to two references for the Eastern School District. Both identify Geoff J. Taylor as the author, but I found no mention of this name on the referenced web pages. Is this person actually the author of the text on these pages? Folklore1 (talk) 17:34, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * I removed the name of Geoff J. Taylor from the reference citations, because the sources do not have bylines. Folklore1 (talk) 01:24, 12 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

Local media
"as most independent stations do" needs a reference citation so that I can verify it. Folklore1 (talk) 18:20, 29 July 2011 (UTC) Removing the phrase also solves the problem, so we can consider this correction ✅. Folklore1 (talk) 12:37, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Should the titles for "Out of the Fog and One Chef One Critic" be italicized? Folklore1 (talk) 18:20, 29 July 2011 (UTC) ✅

Infobox
The infobox lists 24 June 1497 as the city's founding date. Its founding date should probably be "c. 1620". Folklore1 (talk) 18:34, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Or maybe 1610, year of the first colonisation attempt. See the refernce "Newfoundland: Brief History". Folklore1 (talk) 15:20, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Urban and metro land areas were not given elsewhere in the article, so a source needs to be cited. A reference is also needed for dwellings and median income. The asterisk beside the "median income" label does not seem to have any purpose. Folklore1 (talk) 18:57, 1 August 2011 (UTC) ✅

Climate
"The Climate of Newfoundland" sent me to a site labeled, "The Wayback Machine". It was not helpful. This reference needs to be replaced with an updated source of climate information. Folklore1 (talk) 12:52, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
 * That site brings you to the link after a few seconds. Newfoundlander&amp;Labradorian (talk) 20:54, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. I found that, with patience, it eventually works. Folklore1 (talk) 12:47, 9 August 2011 (UTC)