Talk:St. Louis Cardinals/Archive 2

Browns and the Cardinals have never been the same club
In the first paragraph it states that the Cardinals were originally the "Browns". The Browns were originally in Milwaukee, and moved to St. Louis around 1901 and played in the American League until moving to Baltimore, to become the Orioles, in 1953. The only thing the two clubs had in common was the city. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.198.65.153 (talk) 00:36, 6 June 2013 (UTC)
 * There were TWO teams by the name of "Browns" in St. Louis history. The first was the Brown Stockings of the American Association, which formed in St. Louis and eventually joined the National League and evolved through several name changes into the Cardinals. They are NOT the same as the Browns that arrived later from Milwaukee and then moved to Baltimore. Ambaryer (talk) 11:56, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps you want a comment in the article that the team which was the AA's Brown Stockings is not to be confused with the American League team which eventually moved to Baltimore. A similar situation occurred in the early history of the U.S.: the political party aligned with Thomas Jefferson was called Democratic-Republican, or Republican for short, and I have **seen** a comment in a history book that it is not to be confused with today's Republican party. OK? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.63.16.20 (talk) 17:21, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed, Jefferson's party eventually evolved into the Democratic party, while the modern day Republican party came into existence just a few years before the election of Abraham Lincoln. (They also essentially switched ideologies about 80 years ago, but that's another argument for another time.) CaptHayfever (talk) 16:29, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Please make small edits to the specific list below because some of the info is incorrect.
1. Within the "St. Louis Cardinals" right sidebar, take out the second "42" within the "Retired Numbers" section

2. Within the "Bill DeWitt Group and La Russa (1990 - present)," please change the 1995 to 1996 within the sentence "After Gussie Busch died in 1989, the brewery took control, hired Joe Torre to manage late in 1990, then sold the team to an investment group led by WIlliam DeWitt, Jr. in 1995."

3. Please change the last sentence in the first paragraph within the "Bill DeWitt Group and La Russa (1990 - present)" section to "In 2006," in place of "Two years later." Also had "beating Detroit in 5 games" after the last part of the last sentence in the first paragraph stating "they won the World Series."

4. Within the "Bill DeWitt Group and La Russa (1990 - present)" section, please change the "with" in the last sentence of the second paragraph to "after." 5. Within the "Ballpark" section, please change the "$365" to "$411" within the first paragraph.

6. Within the "Ballpark" section, in the last paragraph please change the sentence "The attendance record for any sporting even is 48,263, in a 2013 Association Football (soccer) friendly match between Chelsea F.C, made possible by more space available in a soccer match than in a baseball game," to "The attendance record for any sporting even is 48,263, in a 2013 Association Football (soccer) friendly match between Chelsea F.C, made possible by on field seating."

7. Within the "Executives and club officials" section, please change the first sentence to "An investment group led by William DeWitt, Jr., who owns the St. Louis Cardinals and bought the team from Anheuser-Busch (AB) in 1996."

8. Within the "Executives and Club Officials" section in the second paragraph, please remove "Southwest Bank's Drew Baur, Hanser and" within the second sentence. Also change "Baur" within the next couple of sentences to "DeWitt."

9. Within the "Executives and Club Officials" section in the third paragraph, remove the "Baur" within the first sentence and take out the last sentence of "However, after reabsorbing that stake into the remainder of the group, they decided to make it available to new investors in 2010. Amid later allegations that the Cardinals owed the city profit shares, DeWitt revealed that their profitability had not reached the threshold to trigger that obligation."

10. Within the "Recent annual financial records" section, please remove "Baur" within the third sentence and add "group" after "DeWitt" within the third sentence.

11. Within the "Franchise Principals" section, remove "Owner and Vice Chairman: Fredrick O.Hanser" and "Owner: Klingaman Group" and add "Director of G.C: Whittle."

CardsPR2 (talk) 18:12, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Partly done:
 * 1. The first 42 links to Bruce Sutter, the second to Jackie Robinson. I admit it looks strange, but it's better to keep them distinct.


 * 2. The source says "announced today that it has agreed" and is dated 1995. Need a better source if we are to change it.


 * 3. I've done the first part. Need source for the second part.


 * 4. "to retire after a title" makes no sense. Am I looking at the place you meant?


 * 5. The source (FN99) states 365M.


 * 6. Yes, it did need copy editing. I've put "made possible by providing seats in places that would be unavailable during a baseball game", which is a bit closer to what the source says.


 * 7. I've made the change you want, but in slightly different wording to make it a complete sentence.


 * 8-11. I haven't done these at the moment, because I think that may remove some of the story. For example, this mentions both Hanser and Baur. Baur died in 2011, but that is no reason to write him out of the story altogether. If you wish, fell free to create a new edit request with more details and (above all) reliable sources. --Stfg (talk) 21:18, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia Inconsistencies
This article claims that the St. Louis Cardinals won their division in 2001 (co-champions), yet the Boston Red Sox aren't listed as being co-champs of their division in 2005 and the Los Angeles Dodgers aren't listed as being co-champs of their division in 2006. To be consistent, which article should be changed: this one or the Red Sox and Dodgers articles?24.6.40.199 (talk) 09:02, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

If you go to mlb.com/stl/history and then click on "Year by Year Results," (mlb.com/stl/history/year_by_year_results.jsp)it states that the Cardinals finished in second place in 2001. Therefore, I'm taking 2001 off the list of division championships. The Cardinals were co-champs, but only one team can actually win a division. 24.6.40.199 (talk) 09:20, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Please stop reverting this. The MLB site is official; the HOF website is not. It says that they finished second, which has nothing to do with playoff seeding. Second is where they finished in the division. There is no official thing called a "co-championship." It's an unofficial title that recognizes that the Cardinals finished with the same record as the Astros, but the Astros won the division. The 2005 Red Sox and 2006 Dodgers are not recognized as division champs even though also finished tied for first place. This issue is done.24.6.40.199 (talk) 00:28, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

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History before 1892 not recognized by Cardinals organization
In 2009, it was reported that St Louis Cardinals were not recognizing any other history before 1892 the year the club officially recognizes (as well as MLB notes as the year the team began). All of the below sources (one being mlb itself) note that the Cubs and Cardinals will meet for the first time in the playoffs in the 2015 NLDS. The errors listed that they met prior to 1892 need to be removed, they are nonfactual, and no reliable source can be used to say otherwise, while CBS, ESPN, and MLB all list the series as the first time the two met in post season. Sources:

http://thecardinalnationblog.com/2009/08/21/cards-history-began-in-1892/

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/25330970/cubs-and-cardinals-will-meet-in-postseason-for-first-time

http://espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2015/story/_/page/playoffs15_NLDSCubs-Cardinals/five-nlds-questions-chicago-cubs-st-louis-cardinals

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2015_10_09_chnmlb_slnmlb_1#game=2015_10_09_chnmlb_slnmlb_1,game_state=Pregame

2602:304:CFD3:2EE0:E42C:7D5E:31CA:82A0 (talk) 21:28, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

✅ (noted) previously, by another user. RM2KX (talk) 07:39, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Division Titles
The Cards are 10-time Central Division Champions and 3-time Eastern Division Champions. They are not 13-time Central Division Champions. 1982, 1985, and 1987 were Eastern championships, as the Central Division didn't even exist at the time. Please fix that.50.136.139.204 (talk) 23:29, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

Somebody PLEASE fix this article. I tried editing it, but now the article is all messed up. The Cards have won 10 Central Division titles and 3 Eastern Division titles. Fix the article so it says that. Damnit!50.136.139.204 (talk) 09:46, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

✅ previously, by another user. RM2KX (talk) 07:37, 21 April 2017 (UTC) attempt at filling in citation requested with reference from St.Louis-Post Dispatch.Wiscbadger (talk) 14:20, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Why is this page restricted, even to people who have Wiki accounts?
This is not even necessary. You can restrict it to people who don't have accounts, but why me? The Cardinals just won the division, but I can't make the edit. The Gamer 91 (talk) 01:48, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. They did win the 2019 Division today. What it is about what happened in 2001. Sports Fan 1997 (talk) 02:11, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Exactly. I was going to make the edit, but it’s protected. Now the page isn’t even updated. Chris6d (talk) 18:29, 30 September 2019 (UTC)

Division title dispute
This was previously litigated before Talk:St._Louis_Cardinals/Archive_1%23Co-Championship and the consensus was that they were the wild card team in 2001. The Cards claiming something doesn't make it actual. They played in the playoffs as the wild card team, they finished second due to tie breakers as is the case with other more recent cases where teams finished tied at the end of the season. Spanneraol (talk) 01:30, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The co-champion claim is a minority view, and I don't believe it should be included. As stated by AP in 2004 (in a link from that last discussion), St. Louis finished tied with Houston in 2001, but the Astros won the division based on head-to-head record while the Cardinals won the wild-card berth. Still, St. Louis tried to claim it was division co-champion, a position the commissioner's office rejected.—Bagumba (talk) 19:20, 26 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Agree. I generally don't follow baseball, but after reviewing the sources I came away with the same impression. OhNo itsJamie Talk 19:39, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

Yes, as you can see in the standings in 2001, the Cardinals did not win the 2001 Central Division title because the Astros beat them in the season series to own the tiebreaker. Similar to last year, at the end of the season, the Cubs and Brewers both tied for first but they played a game 163 tiebreaker with the Brewers winning and Cubs with WC berth. If the Cardinals claim to be co-champions then the Cubs should get it as well for both. Sports Fan 1997 (talk) 23:36, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

9/11 might have played a factor that year, but here's the standings. https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/2001-standings.shtml

2001 playoff bracket https://www.printyourbrackets.com/2001-mlb-playoff-bracket-results.html Sports Fan 1997 (talk) 23:41, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

MLB doesn't consider it a Division co-championship, as a head-to-head record is part of the tie-breaker rules. Otherwise, MLB would've had the Cardinals & Astros play a NL Central tie-breaker game. GoodDay (talk) 02:40, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Yeah I agree that's what I was saying Sports Fan 1997 (talk) 16:21, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 29 September 2019
National League Champions '2019' Just occured Gmsmith5s (talk) 22:04, 29 September 2019 (UTC)
 * ❌ this page is no longer protected and may be edited directly. — xaosflux  Talk 17:19, 1 October 2019 (UTC)