Talk:St. Mary's City, Maryland

Untitled

 * Sanit Mary is 1689 sq miles


 * That's St. Marys County.


 * St. Mary's City is closer to 400 acres. An acre is a square with the side almost the length of a football field. Very different than the area listed above^^.


 * Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 23:53, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Title
Shouldn't this page be titled St. Marie's City ? Not only to get the spelling correct, but also to disambiguate it from St Mary's County, Maryland.


 * It's now at St. Mary's City, Maryland in line with the article (and the official spelling?). -- User:Docu


 * As a student at St. Mary's College, I can tell you that the city is spelled with a "y" on all the material they publish.


 * Secondly, the college does not run the St. Mary's City tourist center. The City has its own nonprofit corporation overseeing it, and while it and the college have collaborated in the past, they are separate entities.
 * Epictetus


 * I believe that, despite it's name, St. Mary's City isn't an incorporated city, nor an incorporated town or village for that matter. Can anyone confirm?  ianrothman


 * -- ianrothman, Epictetus


 * You are right it's not. Although the College and the St. Marys City commission have a kind of shared and divided "governing" authority over the city. And ultimately both bodies report to, and are funded by, the state of Maryland.
 * 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 23:09, 21 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I was born and raised in St. Mary's County and the name of the city is St. Mary's City. St. Marys city is one of the excepted cases where the city is independent of the "city", another example is Leonardtown, you have the city of Leonardtown and "Leonardtown" which is where the court house and the square are located. St. Marys doesn't follow the same rules as Maryland on city, town, municpality. They more or less follow the example of England. -Daddakamabb


 * It's not a city at all. That is just what the colonists called it when it was a colonial town. The town was abandoned though, in the late 1600s, due to religious persecution and because the capitol of Maryland was moved from St. Mary's City to Annapolis. However the area kept it's name, the locals kept calling it that for generations (for good reason when you consider the incredible history there).Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 00:00, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Archeology
There's not much information about the archeological info or the Time Team dig that took place there in 1997(Series 4) and found evidence of some of the governor's house and some other parts of the settlement, including a location for the Fort that had been located there.


 * I just added something on that. Look in the "archeology" section.2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 23:11, 21 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Just added a link to the Time Team Wikipedia article to the Archeology section list-item on "discoveries" related to the St. Johns Freehold.Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 00:06, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

Everything needs expansion
How can this article not have any history or demographics? St. Mary's City is one of the most historic cities in Maryland, first of all. I am going to work on article a lot in the coming weeks.....--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 21:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC))

UPDATE--I fixed up the history part. I just need some demographics. I will work to improve on the current archaeological digs at St. Mary's in the coming weeks. The thing is, I never understood how to put pictures on wikipedia, so could someone else try doing that?--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 22:22, 6 April 2008 (UTC))

UPDATE--I added a Archeology History section. I just need to get some demographics and some other facts.--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 23:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC))

There seems to be no websites that have demographics on St. Mary's City, so I'll focus on other things for the meantime, such as improving and organizing the article's look.--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 23:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC))


 * Most of your changes to the history section can (should) have a reliable source. Tedickey (talk) 23:28, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

They do, I just don't know how to make references. My source is the website provided in the article. I added a ref-improve to the article. I'll just figure out how to make proper refrences and I'll have some on soon.--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 01:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC))

I've figured out how to make references! I am churning some out at the moment, so I'll take the unreferenced tag off soon!--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 00:39, 9 April 2008 (UTC))

I took off the unreferenced tag. I will add a few more references, but the tag isn't necessary since there are references now.--(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 21:30, 9 April 2008 (UTC))


 * I just did a lot of expanding.2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 02:23, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Merge with St. Mary's City Historic District article
Both articles pretty much restate the same information. Therefore, I propose that both of them should be merged.-(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 16:15, 28 December 2009 (UTC))


 * sounds reasonable (and since this corresponds to the most common name, should be the target, as you've indicated) Tedickey (talk) 16:43, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Alright then. I assume that we have reached an agreement (since we are the only editors who have spent a significant amount of time on this article). I will happily merge the two articles within the next few hours.-(Wikipedian1234 (talk) 17:44, 28 December 2009 (UTC))


 * This was all done long ago.2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 14:56, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Style issues
Editors should be aware of Boldface, as well as other general issues in WP:MOS TEDickey (talk) 14:10, 14 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Boldface is allowed by other Wikipedia policies especially where a topic has a complex breakdown of unrelated subtopics--


 * It is proper and even suggested by Wikipedia in such cases to use boldface to highlight key but otherwise unrelated subtopics in a complex article in order to differentiate them.


 * (For example, St. Marys City is both a College Campus and also a Living History tourist area and is also, in addition to these two, an archeological research area and it is in addition to that, the site of the founding of the Maryland Colony. And it is also considered by historians to be the birthplace of religious freedom in America).


 * Each subtopic is sufficiently different from the other in order to require boldfacing for clarity and easier readability of the article. This use of boldface in such cases is not "promotion" but is recommended by Wikipedia in order to prevent confusion. I hope that helps. :2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 15:01, 14 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't see any wording in the guideline which relates to your comment. Most of the boldface is SHOUTING at the reader, which makes it pointless. TEDickey (talk) 01:26, 15 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I read further and you are right (I was wrong). **I originally learned the (incorrect) rules of boldface from another Wikipedia editor (they incorrectly explained the boldface policy, and I made the mistake of assuming they were right.)--


 * But I never went and read the actual Wikipedia policy myself. That's a good lesson for me in reading the actual Wikipedia policy instead of learning the policy from other editors. Anyway, the boldface has been taken out and lower in the article it has been converted to headings of sub-sections. 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 17:10, 15 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Italics (called emphasis) have corresponding guidelines. EMPHASIS seems a good place to continue reading. TEDickey (talk) 21:23, 16 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Am I doing anything right? Is any of this hard work or improvement worth mentioning? 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 01:55, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

Descriptions have been adjusted
I didn't intend to "promote" but was just trying to describe--

However today I did adjust the language. The opening now reads: "center for living history and tourist destination and also an archeological research area". The words "major" and "nationally recognized" have been removed. I'm sorry for any misunderstanding, I was just trying to describe not promote.

By the way, there are no commercial enterprises in St. Marys city. The college is a public institution (nonprofit and state funded) and the historical area that is described is run by the state of Maryland. It is also not really a city, that was just what the early colonists called it. It was a colonial town, but it was abandoned and became a ghost town and now is only a college campus and a historical / archeological area, although these are certainly very notable things by Wikipedia standards, as is explained in the article.

I also do not work or live there. 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 00:51, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

History of St. Marys College
The problem is this topic is needed by two separate articles--

It is needed by the St. Marys City, Maryland article (since the "city" was previously a ghost town until the development of the college, so the Citys development and the development of the college are inextricable, and since the college constitutes more than half of the designated city area).


 * Keep in mind that there is no real city, that is just what the colonists called the former town. And the name of the area has just persisted since then.

And of course this history is also needed by the St. Marys College of Maryland article. And yet it is redundant to repeat it in both articles.

A few possible solutions are to:

1) Link to a new section "History of St. Marys College" in the City article, from the college article (linking to a section in another article can be done in Wikipedia).

Or 2), a separate article could be created, "The history of St. Marys College of Maryland", that both the City and college articles could then link to.

107.218.9.122 (talk) 18:57, 15 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm starting to lean even more towards not creating a separate page for "History of St. Marys College". I think the problem is that, the more I read, the more it seems that the history of both the City and the emerging college through much of he 1800s and 1900s are inextricable. 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 00:57, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Needs a "History of Slavery in St. Marys City" section
This is an important (absolutely major) part of the history of the area. I saw something tonight (in an article) that the first 13 slaves in Maryland were brought to St. Marys City in the mid-1600s. Also why not more on the Plantation era, since the whole city was also a slave plantation for at least 170 years. 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 07:26, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Added sub-section on "slave plantation era" to the history chronology. The article also needs it's own additional section called "The History of Slavery in St. Marys City" or something like that, since the first slaves arrived there in 1642 and slavery continued there for 183 years.
 * 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 02:00, 26 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I added a little more on the development of the slave economy in the colony (under the "expansion" section). Still needs more on the first slaves (conditions where different then), how that changed as slavery became institutionalized in the colony, and also coverage of of 1700s and 1800s slavery. This is was a very long era.
 * 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 09:42, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Margaret Brent and Mrs. Nuthead
I'm going to be adding some parts on these Women. Both Women contributed "firsts" in women's rights in the early Colony.2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 01:06, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Added a section and image on Margaret Brent.The image was very hard to place (it's not entered where it actually shows, I'm not sure why).
 * 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 09:34, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Mathias Da Sousa
Mathias Da Sousa was the first person of African heritage to be elected to office (Colonial assemblyman in St. Marys City) and the first to cast a vote in an assembly in North America and all of this happened in St. Marys City. I'm still looking up various references. If anyone has any sources on this, let me know. 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 01:08, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The historical record on Mathias da Sousa is sparse, and in some respects suggestive rather than confirmed. I added what I could.
 * 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 09:36, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Jesuit Mission in St. Marys / St. Inigoes
Something should also be added about the Jesuit mission that was established, as this played a key role in the early colony and then later became a permanent fixture in Southern St. Marys County for centuries.2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 01:10, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Early Boundary of St. Marys City
I'm still trying to figure out whether or not the original St. Marys City tract included what is now called St. Inigoes (now a neighboring area). It seems that in some sources that I am reading that it did (but I'm not sure yet). In which case the Jesuit mission there, established at the same time as St. Marys City, would also need to be more of a part of this article (the missionaries came with the first settlers).

Burning of Bromes Wharf during the Civil War
I'm looking into this as well. But am not sure if Bromes wharf was in St. Marys city or not. It shared the same name as the plantation in St. Marys City at the time and was destroyed by Union soldiers to stop trading with the confederacy during the war. I'm still looking into this. If anyone comes along who knows anything, please post what you know, and any sources (important) here. 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 01:13, 27 February 2014 (UTC)


 * I found a reference that puts Bromes Wharf in St. Mary's City. I'll add it when I have more time. P.S. The above post ^^ is me, before I got my WP account.   Cliffswallow-vaulting (talk) 15:27, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Request to make the article description in the lead into "A museum" and also move everything else down into the article
I am copying this discussion and moving it here. I am very concerned because St. Marys City is not "a museum" it is actually five very different, unrelated things.

Complicating this further--

It is also not a city or town so you can't just say "it's a town" and then describe it's contents elsewhere.

Its five aspects are all separately notable so they should all therefore be mentioned in the opening.

Here is the discussion I copied and moved here--


 * I would strongly suggest following the format of similar articles. If you look at the article before you began editing here, or other open air museums Category:Open air museums in the United States by state, trying to keep the format similar would be a good start.


 * The purpose of the wp:lede is to summarize the article. It seems rather large. The section headers are quite long and probably should be shortened considerably. Jim1138 (talk) 07:47, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * St. Marys City is not "am open air museum" as you just said. It is five, separately notable things--   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 21:30, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Have you taken the time to read the content of the opening? This is an unusual case.


 * The article has a complex topic, and there is actually no town or city there (and there is no "umbrella city or town") to simplify the opening to--


 * St. Marys City is:


 * a) The site of the first colony in Maryland


 * b) The birthplace of religious freedom in America (first law passed there granting such)


 * c) Half of St. Marys City is now a College


 * d)) The other half is a Historical area with museums, reconstructed buildings, living history actors etc...


 * e) It's one of the top archeological sites in the nation.


 * But it is not a city, nor is it a town (that is just it's name). There is no city there at all (except underground). So you can't just say, for example, "it's a city" and then leave all the other stuff until later.


 * But is five different, separately notable things, which is why the lead needs all those points.


 * Please make any further responses in the "Talk" area of the article. You are missing key points already discussed there and are ::thereby creating a lot of extra work here as it makes me have to re-explain things already mentioned on the article talk page.


 * If you want to talk further, I'll see you over there. :-)


 * 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 08:20, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Also the older version of the article that you showed as, an example, has only 10% of the content that exists now. There are now 60 reference citations and 200 plus footnotes. St. Marys City is a complex subject, so please don't suggest major changes without first carefully familiarizing yourself with the actual content of the article. 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 08:34, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * (Boldface only used to clarify a key, often confused point). :-)
 * 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 21:42, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Image sizes

 * Concessions and partial concessions:


 * 1) Portraits of colony founders. Now at the standard thumbnail size (220px, which is the default). As per MOS:IMAGES


 * 2) Lead image for the article. Made larger, as per MOS:IMAGES (panoramic images exception) and MOS:IMAGES (lead article image exception).


 * However as a concession to other editor, although enlarged, it is not as big as it was before.


 * 3) "Maryland Toleration Act" image. This is clearly a representation of text, and so falls under MOS:IMAGES (exceptions made for when key details, like text, can not otherwise be read) and MOS:IMAGES (exception for when key details are cropped out by the default size).


 * However as a concession to other editor, although enlarged enough for readability, it is not as big as it was before.


 * 4) Maryland Statehouse image. Made larger, as per MOS:IMAGES (panoramic images exception)


 * However as a concession to other editor, although enlarged, it is not as big as it was before.


 * 5) Planters house image. Made larger, as per MOS:IMAGES (panoramic images exception)


 * However as a concession to other editor, although enlarged, it is not as big as it was before.


 * 6) Inn image, Planters image, Maryland statehouse image. All made the same size as per MOS:IMAGES (exception for making all pictures the same size to preserve attractive appearance of the article).


 * However as a concession to other editor, although enlarged, they are not as big as they before.

*All enlarged images have been kept within parameters for enlarged image exceptions.


 * 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 20:23, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


 * P.S. The Margaret Brent image has been resized to 220px (sligtly larger than before) which is the default limit for a thumb, as per MOS:IMAGES.
 * 2602:306:BDA0:97A0:466D:57FF:FE90:AC45 (talk) 20:30, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Should a separate article be created?
The history section dominates, for good reason, however the content might be even better a separate article to conform with Summary style. --PhotographerTom (talk) 03:40, 28 February 2016 (UTC)