Talk:St. Michael's Cathedral, Qingdao

Article Origin
This article came into being as a result of research done in Qingdao, China, in January of 2010, specifically for the purposes of creating this article. Several visits to St. Michael's Cathedral resulted in the photos and information necessary to present this topic in a detailed and encyclopedic manner. The original author would like to thank all those who provided assistance. ɳoɍɑfʈ Talk! 06:15, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Congratulations on a nice article.--Charles (talk) 23:09, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Quote
It would help if it said whose opinion the quote under "Exterior and location" is.--Charles (talk) 10:10, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * The quote has a reference. Do you mean it should begin with "According to Warner..."? ɳoɍɑfʈ  Talk! 21:22, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, if Warner said it. As it is an offline reference we do not know whether it is Warner's opinion or his reporting of somebody else's opinion. As Wikipedia is for facts rather than opinion such quotes, when used, need to be clearly attributed.--Charles (talk) 23:07, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Copyedit tweaks
I'm going to explain why I reverted a few of the copyedit changes.
 * Steyl is in Holland, which is a region of the Netherlands
 * I reverted "Civil War" back to "Civil War period" in two places because the focus is on the period, not the event. The war itself didn't exist in Qingdao for the entire war period.
 * I reverted "The denunciation of anything Western as 'capitalist,' 'bourgeois' and representative of the 'imperialist world' reached a peak during the ideological extremism of the Korean War (1950–53) when the final vestiges of the Western economic and cultural presence were eradicated." to single quotes and no comma, for two reasons: (1) it is a direct quote, and that's how its written, and (2) Single quote marks should appear inside a sentence enclosed by double quote marks.
 * We have some differences of opinion about which preposition is most appropriate. I've reverted a couple that I think work better. As this article has been through two peer reviews, there's consensus for those prepositions, if we want to get detailed about it.
 * Other reverts were stylistic in nature. I think I've covered the most important, though. ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 22:10, 28 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Steyl is now Steyl-Tegelen. (See, , for example). Steyl-Tegelen is in the province of Limburg, which is not in the region known as Holland. I have made the necessary corrections. 75.2.209.226 (talk) 23:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * It was in Holland in the late 1800's and early 1900's, and that's what the source says that is cited there. Reverting. ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 23:50, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Neither Holland nor Limburg have changed locations since the late 19th century. Look at the maps:Holland, Limburg (Netherlands). They don't overlap. They're not even close to each other. You seem to be confused by the fact that the Netherlands has often been referred to as "Holland", so "Steyl, Holland" written years ago actually means "Steyl, Netherlands", not "Steyl, Holland region." 75.2.209.226 (talk) 00:13, 29 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Why would I "seem to be confused" by that? Have I made statements that show I've been affected by the fact that the Netherlands has often been referred to as Holland? Have I called modern day Netherlands "Holland" by mistake? Stick to editing and give up the assumptions of other editors' motivations. You never assume good things, and you're wrong more often then you're right. ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 00:29, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Article name

 * Is there more than one cathedral in Qingdao? if not, is there any reason not to call it simply "Qingdao Cathedral"? HeartofaDog (talk) 10:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Generally on Wikipedia, we name articles with the names of the articles' subjects. The name of the cathedral is "St. Michael's Cathedral" so that's the name of the article. ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 11:43, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Scarcely helpful. Many things - cathedrals among them - have more than one possible name. According to WP:EN the one to go for as the title is "the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language", and I'm not convinced that "St. Michael's Cathedral, Qingdao" is any commoner than "Qingdao Cathedral", which is shorter and equally accurate as long as there is not more than one cathedral in Qingdao and therefore a dab need: if there is, that would settle the question. Practice is divided on this, apparently mostly on national grounds, so there is room for a discussion, which needs to be settled before FA status. By the way, "generally on Wikipedia, we" try not to patronise each other.HeartofaDog (talk) 12:47, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I wasn't patronizing you. I was assuming good faith (I thought you didn't know the general naming convention). Would be nice if you could reciprocate that. Also, one should assume good faith even in the face of bad faith, so even if I was patronizing you, patronizing me back isn't the right choice. There are thirty-six sources in the article. More than half are English language sources. All of them--save two--refer to the cathedral as St. Michael's Cathedral. I have never seen nor heard the cathedral referred to as "Qingdao Cathedral." In fact, I have never seen any Roman Catholic cathedral referred to by the name of the city it is in. Probably because they all have names: not possible ones, actual ones. ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 13:08, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Update: I found a couple, like Manila Cathedral, but the reason it is listed that way on Wikipedia is because it is what it is called in common parlance. St. Michael's Cathedral is called St. Michael's Cathedral in English common parlance. In Chinese common parlance, it is simply called "the Catholic Church." ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 13:19, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Your point about "common parlance" is really what's at issue, surely. There is no consistency in how either Wikipedia or the English language deals with referring to cathedrals, which is why I raised it as a question, not as a statement. But the argument "that's its actual name so that's what I'm calling it" doesn't apply to cathedrals, because there are several different valid ways to refer to a cathedral, and whether or not you've come across it, Qingdao Cathedral is a viable option.
 * It's observable that articles on European cathedrals tend to follow the pattern "Footown Cathedral", while articles on US and ex-colonial cathedrals tend to follow the pattern "St X's Cathedral, Footown" - there may or may not be a logical reason underlying that, and there are exceptions both ways round. It may be a UK/US thing. But as FA articles are supposed to be stable I'm drawing your attention to the fact, whether or not you accept it, that there's a possible query over the title of the article. I leave it to you what if anything you want to do about it, but suggest that you might defuse it simply by adding "Qingdao Cathedral" as an alt name in the intro. HeartofaDog (talk) 14:27, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Why would you want to add an alternative name that is used by nobody? Doesn't make any sense. My argument isn't "that's its actual name so that's what I'm calling it." My argument is "that's its actual name AND is also what everyone calls it, so that's what I'm calling it." ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 16:17, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Well done for missing the point.HeartofaDog (talk) 16:31, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you, thank you very much. Can you make me a userbox that says "This user misses the point very well"? But to speak to your point (the one I've missed), what you're doing is essentially the same as showing up on the talk page of the Washington Monument and saying "Hey, is there more than one obelisk in the capitol? Why don't we call this 'Capitol Obelisk'? ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 16:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Can I just point out here that "we" (as in the world at large) understand that St Paul's Cathedral implies the Cathedral of London, not the Cathedral of Sao Paulo, and that it is always called "St Pauls'" not "London Cathedral". (For the information of those who are not British: There is no other cathedral in the City of London, the others are at Southwark and Westminster.) The Basilica of St John Lateran is never referred to as "Rome Cathedral", but that is what it is. And as for Notre Dame, we all know that means "Paris Cathedral", even though Chartres and Strasbourg and probably a good many others are also dedicated to "Our Lady". It seems that naming cathedrals according to their titular saint is not entirely limited to we Colonials around the edge of the Pacific.

HeartofaDog, Noraft is not the only person here who finds your statement about being "patronising" to be quite unnecessary and inappropriate. Please make allowance for the fact that different people may use language more or less formally, and that "We" doesn't necessarily imply the Royal plural. People who use it on Wikipedia may mean "Wikipedia editors in general", "We editors of this particular article", or "We boffins in this field, including the present writer". They might even mean "We, the congregation of St Michael's". Amandajm (talk) 10:19, 12 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Bye the way...Congratulations! I am delighted to see this on the front page, after all your hard work! Amandajm (talk) 10:22, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much! ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 14:26, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Chinese text notice
Hello, is there a reason why the box that says "This article contains Chinese characters..." is below the cathedral infobox and not above it, as would seem the more logical position? Loves Macs  (talk) 14:32, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I had it above, as per WP:LEAD. Someone moved it, and as I've already had this argument, I couldn't be arsed to move it back and argue about it again. ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 14:54, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it was creating some problem with formatting, and causing the main box to overlay the text of the introduction. Amandajm (talk) 15:08, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Catholic?
Is it controlled by the Roman Catholic church or by the Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association? From that article RCC is officially forbidden but most Chinese Catholics seem to be between both currents. --Error (talk) 21:51, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Every Catholic church in China is controlled by the CPCA. The current Bishop was recognized by the Vatican, though. ɳorɑfʈ  Talk! 23:58, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

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