Talk:St Albans/Archive 1

Punctuation
How many times will this page be renamed? I think it's up to about 5 now. I think the spelling without punctuation is more common: St Albans. That's what the council seems to use - http://www.stalbans.gov.uk/

AArrghh.. Still wrong it is St Albans, no dot and no apostrophe. Mintguy

Definitely no dot. Just checked Fowler, who says it is St for Saint, no dot (and he makes no mention of an alternative US usage). And you're right about the apostrophe too. oops. will fix -- Tarquin 13:18 Dec 27, 2002 (UTC)

Um. There's old talk lost in limbo somewhere at one of the other dozen or so names. But it's just about the name changing a lot. Urg. Must sort out Saint later... -- Tarquin 13:24 Dec 27, 2002 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree that St Albans should have no full stop and no apostrophe. However, I am curious as to why some persons seem to believe that St Peter's Street should NOT have an apostrophe. Road signs of various vintages (eg, at the southern end by the Old Town Hall on both sides of the street) indicate quite categorically that the apostrophe should be present. Similarly the house styles of both the Herts Ad and St Albans Observer seem to require the use of an apostrophe. The origin of the name of the street is quite clear: it is the street leading to the Parish Church of St Peter, aka St Peter's Church - hence St Peter's Street (WITH an apostrophe) (and, by analogy, St Michael's Street and St Stephen's Hill, etc.). 195.217.52.130 14:18, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I stand corrected (well, sit corrected). A quick glance at my garage rent bill shows that it is the council's lack of consistency that fooled me. Its website does not use apostrophes (although, for that matter, neither do modern maps, it seems). Printed staionery does. It should be monitored though - it looks like this might be a style in flux - Hertfordhire Highways doesn't use one on their roadwork signs. Icundell 18:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I have reinstated the apostrophes. I agree that this needs to be kept an eye on: a combination of lackadaisicality, laziness and ignorance, I feel.  Interestingly, St Peter's Church's website gives the church's address variously as St Peter's Street and St Peters Street (though it consistently uses the apostrophe in the name of the church) :-) 195.217.52.130 11:55, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that there's no apostrophe in St Albans. Of course, there was once an apostrophe; but it's dropped out of common usage now. I also share the preference for omitting the dot after 'St'. But this is a matter of preference, not a rule. Tarquin (above) cites Fowler, but Fowler doesn't say it's wrong to use a dot after 'St', he just says that he thinks it's better not to. Half the websites shown as links in the article use a dot at least some of the time, including http://www.stalbans.gov.uk/


 * All in all, I consider it unduly didactic for the article to begin with the words "St Albans (thus spelt, no apostrophe or dot)...". I shall be bold and remove the parenthesised words. Russ London 13:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Officially St. Albans, as St. stands for Saint it has a full stop to denote an abbreviation. Look at the title of the page at http://www.stalbans.gov.uk/

Abbey
I like this setup now.

I have removed the Abbey from the list of the notable buildings because the cathedral entry explains the cathedral was previously the abbey. Are they really two separate entities that a visitor could see as two spearate buildings? 194.117.133.118 14:08 Dec 27, 2002 (UTC)

Technically, it's a cathedral, but locals still refer to it as the Abbey RatherConfused 15:50, 2 February 2006 (UTC)RatherConfused
 * Yup. Actually the Cathedral and Abbey Church of St Alban.  Not sure how many other churches there are which are simlarly designated, actually - it may be unique. - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] 16:02, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed: what locals commonly refer to as "the Abbey" is, of course, the Abbey Church. The other parts of the monastery (eg, living accommodation/eating hall/cloister (exercise yard!)/outer walls etc.) have all gone (except for the Great Gateway) following the dissolution of the monasteries in 1536-1540. The church was purchased by the town from Edward VI in 1553 and used as a parish church. It wasn't until 1877 (NB. when it was 800 years old!) that the building was made into a Cathedral with its own diocese and bishop. Hence its "proper" name, the Cathedral & Abbey Church of St Alban, since it is both! In passing, you should note that "of St Alban" refers to St Alban the Christian martyr, not St Albans the town. Finally, I, too, think that St Albans is unique in this country in currently having a Cathedral & Abbey Church that's one building! 195.217.52.130 16:42, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't the Abbey be mentioned in the lede? It's really the reason for the existence of the town and mainly what tourists come to see. Alansplodge (talk) 12:20, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

stats table
Anone think this would be useful? It's adapted from one on the Stevenage page. That one also has a map, but I don't really do graphics, so if anone else wants to....Icundell 11:17, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * Looks good post it Lumos3 22:16, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * And had I actually followed a link I would have found it already exisitns on the City and District of St Albans page. Oh well, at least it prompted be to review the structure of the page.Icundell 17:30, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Abbreviation Appropriate??
Honestly,shouldn't this article be at Saint Albans rather than any abbreviated version? As I understand it,the omission of the dot after abbreviations is something that has arisen in the late 20th century in Britain,while the dropping of apostrophes from names that are considered possessives is a conceit of the US Board of Geographic Names (I would fire them all and replace them with opponents of this policy if I ever became President of the United States!) that may or may not have similarly-minded counterparts in Britain.But regardless,if the word "Saint" is part of the place's official name the alphabetization and article placement should not be under "St" but under "Sa".--Louis E./le@put.com/ 12.144.5.2 01:07, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * In every common use, everywhere, the simple 'St' form is predominant. It is what is used on all official documentation, maps and road signs. Modern usage drops the redundant full stop. The possesive apostrophe has not been used in the name of the city since at least 1897, when the Ordnance Survey produced some rather wonderful 1:2500 scale maps, repros of which I have open in front of me.  Nobody, looking for St Albans, would search for Saint Albans or Saint Alban's and redundant periods are just a pain. I can't speak for other places. That's their business. Read back and you will note that this discussion has kinda been had, including a cite to Fowler's. If you don't know what Fowler's is, you shouldn't be posting this kind of query Icundell 01:36, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Just to add to the well-made point above, locals (of which I used to be one) refer to the place when spoken as "SntAlbans" (ie almost as one word) and all maps, gazeteers, etc. will use "St Albans". You might just as well change all references to the US Capital City to "Washington Distict of Columbia" rather than "Washington DC"; we need to reflect actual usage rather than perceived historical correctness (imho, ymmv, etc). --[[User:VampWillow|VampWillow]] 16:06, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Well,I continue to disagree (to me a full stop is an indispensable identification of an abbreviation as such).One ordinarily sees Washington,D.C. and not Washington,DC in my experience.And people say "Dee Cee",pronouncing the abbreviation,while nobody says "St" with an S and T sound (only) when they refer to Saint Alban's.In any event a reference work should correct common usage,not submit to it.--Louis E./le@put.com/ 12.144.5.2 17:26, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Except that in UK English not only have the stops in DC been abandoned as unnecessary and ugly adornments - just as it is no longer used in AC or DC, the electrical terms - but the separating comma has as well. Since St Albans is a UK page, UK English prevails. I would also suggest that those of us who have actually lived here since we were born might have something to say about it, too.

Your comment about what reference books should and should not do, novel as they are, fly in the face of what all English language references have done since (and except) Johnson. Now Johnson was trying to prescribe, which is why his dictionary is remembered rather than referred to. Fowler isn't just a reference, it is the reference against which all others are measured. That is why all three editions are still in print.

But then, having just looked at your talk page, I note that you have other...um...different...views on punctuation. Icundell 18:59, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * A book one looks to to find things out ought to know better than one does oneself...not simply reflect popular misconception.I note that Whitaker's Almanack only removed the vital periods from abbreviations much later than you're trying to imply,and I think this a change for the worse,even if Fowler didn't.You can rest assured that if I ever write a dictionary,it will be carefully prescriptive rather than descriptive;the more information-based a society becomes the greater the stake in ending changes in usage in order to keep the repository of recorded knowledge intelligible to future generations.--Louis E./le@put.com/ 12.144.5.2 22:19, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And your dictionary would be unsold and unused because it would not do what a good reference work should do - provide enlightened guidance (although the morbidly curious mught want a copy, if only for the idiosyncratic type setting). That you are patently unaware of the revered position that Fowler holds in the English language betrays your ignorance (and, indeed, the depth of your ignorance is laid bare by the fact you think it descriptive). That everything you write betrays that you are not remotely interested in reason simply means that I do not have to waste any more time on your nonsense. Nice trolling, though. Icundell 00:43, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * I've heard of Fowler (and Murray,and Onions,and Burchfield...) but am unafraid to question their preferences.--Louis E./le@put.com/ 12.144.5.2 05:27, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Claims in Miscellany
I moved:

"
 * The first traffic lights in the UK were installed in St Albans at the junction of Holywell Hill and London Road.


 * St Albans has the widest high street in Britain.

"

because I couldn't find any evidence to back them up (and Stockton-on-Tees seems to have a better clain to the second one). (This was me Icundell 11:23, 1 February 2006 (UTC))
 * I am pretty confident the first one is correct (I've heard it before, my dad used to be active in the St Albans district road safety groups). Apparently it used to be the busiest road junction in Britain - I think that's the one anyway. - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] 20:17, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Then we need evidence, which as I say I can't find anywhere on That Interweb Thingy. Also see this. (I remember the claim about the busiest road junction - although it makes a certain sense, being where the A5 and A6 cross, I think there are one or two capacity issues.... Icundell 11:23, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

a recent visit to the st. albans museum confirmed claim 1 for me. Ashspirit (talk) 21:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Elsie Toms, The Story of St. Albans, White Crescent Press, 1975 "...So when travellers brought back news of the new-fangled traffic lights that were being installed in the States, St. Albans was the first (or maybe the second) town in the country to have them.."

Ryder Cup
What about some mention of the first Ryder Cup being staged between the US and UK at Veralum Golf course off London Road. The competition is named after Mr. Ryder, owner of Ryder Seeds (no longer in business), which was based in the building that is now Cafe Rouge (and was formerly a Royal Mail sorting office)

Postcode
Please don't removed AL3 and AL4 as postcodes. AL3 (which I added in March) covers the New Greens and Batchwood area, AL4, as another person notes, covers Marshalswick. Icundell 15:42, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Atmosphere
I moved this out:

"==Atmosphere== Herfordshire is unfairly often labelelled as a somewhat bland and uninteresting county. St Albans is certainly the jewel in the County crown in this case. It has an extensive and dynamic nightlife including a good deal of public houses and restaurants crowded into a relatively confined area. Anyone wishing to walk around the main town centre and surrounding streets will be rewarded with many interesting archeological treats such as the Roman Verulamium and historic treasures such as St Albans Cathederal. St Albans also has an unfair distribution of 'wonkey' streets and half timbered buildings which date back to the 16th century. "

since I cant see what it adds that isn't alreadyt in the article and also it is not exactly encyclopeadic. Comments? Icundell 11:11, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Holywell Hill
I grew up in St Albans (family members still live there). I and they do not say "Holly-well". We say "Holy-well". Although that doesn't mean that everyone has to pronounce it like we do... Honuswagner 02:57, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I grew up and still live here. The vast majority of people I know pronounce it as per the prickly tree. Icundell 15:57, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree, as does the BBC. What about "Catherine Street"?  -- ALoan (Talk) 16:28, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * What about Catherine Street? Icundell 17:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I also grew up there and frequently go back, and I'd also agree that in my experience, most people say "holly-well". There are a few who don't though... perhaps the two variants could both be mentioned?
 * But I'd disagree with the page on the BBC site on one point. The whole thing about the holy well is misleading - the name most likely didn't originate from that source at all. See.
 * Er, pronunciation of Catherine Street? Much as you'd expect - "kath-rin". --David Edgar 17:59, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I do expect and always hear kath-rin. Never heard it called anything else. Icundell 18:26, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Same here. Cundell of the packaging firm, incidentally? - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] 20:15, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Ah, Cundell Eve & Co of...Upper Lattimore Road iirc. Nope. No relation, as far as I know. Icundell 00:55, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, just my peculiar relations then (they pronounce it "Cath-rine" (with the "rine" emphasised and pronounced like "rind" without the "d"). -- ALoan (Talk) 11:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I always had my doubts about you :-) Icundell 11:24, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Well - it seems as if I am in the minority. Fair enough. Feel free to revert to the "Holly-well" pronunciation - perhaps with a comment that this is not universal. Honuswagner 21:50, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Notable People
Is this the place for a pop group who don't live in the Borough and aren't particularly well known? Wilmot1 19:52, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Why am I being removed from the list of notable people? Are there guidelines as to who should/shouldn't be included? I have been presenting the city's only drivetime radio show since 2009 and this seems to me to be as notable as some of the others on this list. I am quite new to editing Wikipedia so if I am in breach of any etiquette it is inadvertent and I'd be grateful for any guidance. Dapperdan75 (talk) 17:10, 19 April 2013 (UTC)


 * You're not so new that you haven't been turned down, and reverted, several times for your attempts to promote a local radio station. The issues here are manifold. (1) In order to appear in the 'Notable people' list for a place, there's a general rule of thumb that a person needs their own article. (2) In order to have their own article, a person's notability needs to be verified by reference to reliable sources. (3) You are required to comply with WP's rules on conflicts of interest; you're not supposed to create articles in order to promote their subjects, whether commercially or otherwise.
 * You definitely act as though you have a conflict of interest when it comes to this radio station. And I believe you already called for someone else to create an article about it, and were turned down because it's not really notable. Did you read and understand the advice you were given then? If the station's not notable, then being a DJ for it won't make a person notable, and being an announcer for a minor league football club won't either; and multiple claims to fame that are all separately too weak to qualify someone for inclusion won't readily combine to make them notable together. AlexTiefling (talk) 17:21, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Many Other Places
When "St Albans" or "St. Albans" is typed into the search box, should it link straight to the disambiguation page? There are many other places named the name. --Boy Cool67 02:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it's clear enough from the disambiguation notice at the top of this article that a disambiguation page exists to link other articles. I think this St Albans is considerably larger and more notable than other places with similar names, so I don't see a good reason to change the redirect.
 * In any case, if you search for either of these using 'search' instead of 'go', you do indeed get a list of all these places. --David Edgar 11:18, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree with David Edgar. The original St Albans is clearly the most likely destination for a link or person typing "St Albans" into Wikipedia.  With respect to all of the other "St Albanses" the English town has been a key focal point of UK history for well over 2,000 years (if you include Verulamium), and has vastly greater numbers of articles linking to it than to any other page with a similar name.  The redirect is surely correct as it is. Legis 17:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Moved from article - too long (cricket)
I've removed this from the article becuase it woefully unbalances it. May I suggest that it is more appropriate for an articel on the cricket club itself?

"The cricket club in St Albans, has a long history. The club has been one of the premier clubs in the Hertfordshire league for many years and has regularly challenged for league honours. The earliest recorded match involving St Albans we have found dates back to 1805 when a combined Rickmansworth and Uxbridge took on St Albans in two day game in Cassiobury Park. The combined team were victors by an innings and 20 runs, despite St Albans fielding Frederick Beauclerk and Silver Billy Beldham. The following year a return match was played at Lords with almost the same sides competing again, however this time St Albans emerged victorious by 21 runs.

By the 1820s St Albans was considered the strongest club in the county, on the 30, 31 August 1828 St Albans challeneged challenged the rest of Hertfordshire to a match at St Albans, justifying odds of 5 to 4 on them by winning by 4 wickets. At this time the shoe-maker brothers G. and J. Taylor were both fine batsmen, and J. Lacey an excellent bowler. Also playing at this time were Lord Grimston and Hon E.H. Grimston who batted at 8 and 9. A return match was played a fortnight later at Ware Park, which was won by the county by a similar margin. On 19 August 1830, the Mercury proclaimed St Albans as the Champiions of the county, provoking the Welwyn Club's Secretary to issue a challenge to "play St Albans or any other club again and again". Welwyn had beaten St Albans once by 5 wickets and lost the return only by 2 runs, and were understandably unhappy about the Mercury's claim. St Albans brothers J. And G. Taylor responded to the Welwyn challenge by going to Welwyn, where they found the Welwyn club declined to play either at No Man's Land or at the St Albans (which according to the rules of cricketing the challenging parties were required to do). The brothers wrote to the Mercury expressing Welwyn's failure to play, and further stating : " We also beg to state we have no objection to play any two brothers for 5 or 10 pounds a side. We should prefer the two Otways. Our money is ready at the Bell Inn, St Albans." There was no record of any games having resulted from this letter.

The next few years saw a period of inactivity for the St Albans club. The Mercury was quick to point out " The town club, which but a season past, was so far famed as champion of the county, seems to be buried in oblivion, we know not whether from a lack of its patrons or a want of a proper unanimity between its players. While a few games were played over the next few years against Hatfield, and Redbourn, it was not unitl the late 1850s that the club regained its former reputation. In 1865 the club moved next to Christchurch on Verulam Road, where Worley Road now stands. At the same time the club introduced an unpopular rule "No person living in St Albans who is not a member of the Club will be admitted to the ground". This unorthodox method of increasing membership, was forced to be quickly withdrawn after it had the reverse effect. Needless to say, it is rather different, and everyone is welcome to come and watch the team play at Clarence Park. The present St Albans club dates from 1898, the Clarence cricket club renamed itself to St Albans Town CC, and began to hire the Clarence Park ground that we use today for their home matches.

The clubs most successful season of recent times was 1994. In this year the 1XI won the league, as did the 2XI, with the 3XI came close with 3rd place. We also won the Furnell Trophy, now known as the Becker cup. For many years the club has been used as the counties home ground and the excellent facilities, and setting at Clarence park reflect this. Many cricketing greats have played at the Clarence park ground including Ian Botham. From 1989-1992 Shane Thompson played for the club before gaining a regular place in the New Zealand test side. Today's cricket is doubtless very different to that played at the beginning of the twentieth century, but I am sure it was every bit as competitive back then.

Taken in part from "Cricket in Hertfordshire" by R.G.Simons (president H.C.C.C) Thanks also to Jim Hind, Former Chairman St Albans Cricket Club." Icundell 13:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

MPdetails
Can you change the MP details from Kerry Pollard (Labour) to Ann Main (Conservative)? However she may not last much longer as she has been caught fiddling her expenses —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.129.242 (talk) 22:17, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Overnight coaching stop
This claim is dubious - at 20 miles from London it would make a good overnight stop if you were walking, but by horse it would have been the first horse-change and meal stop.

Unless someone complains and comes with a reference, I will change this suitably. Pemboid (talk) 07:28, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Ziggurat?
Is there any good reason why the topmost image in this article is the Ziggurat rather than some more established icon of the city, such as the Cathedral, the Clock Tower, or the Abbey Gatehouse? AlexTiefling (talk) 11:28, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

I came here to ask this myself. What fool thought "Hmm...St albans....what does everyone need to see the second they learn anything abou St Albans....I know, the head office of some company". The image should be replaced with a landmark in St Albans. The Town Hall, Cathedral, heck even the ugly Council office would be better than what's been put on there right now. --86.8.80.137 (talk) 21:46, 23 December 2012 (UTC)