Talk:St Augustine's College, Sydney

Photo of Augustine
Re/ the current photo/litho of Augustine, there is scholarly discussion over whether St Augustine of Hippo was part or even fully African (ie. black or Arab) since he was a Roman citizen of North Africa - and there are no images of him from his time. It is conjecture at this point. Would it be a good idea to include this as a note on the page - or even provide some alternative possible images? Any comments from wikipedians? Njamesdebien 08:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * When I added the small thumbnail to the article a while back I just went with the image that was on the St. Augustine page. I think altering the current caption would be the best way of fixing this issue; I think the caption on the St. Augustine page probably fits best: "St. Augustine of Hippo as pictured during the Renaissance". I'll change it to that. --Mitch119 11:00, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Non-notable Sports People
I removed the following names from the "Alumni" list because I couldn't find any information (pretty much at all) about them or what they have done. If someone finds any info about what they've done (what club they played for, etc.) then I'll gladly add them back into the alumni list with a note beside them about who they are and what they did (like the rest of the people in the alumni list). Mitch119 12:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Sam Murphy (basketball)
 * Greg Highfield (Australian Rules Football)
 * Glen Dunsmore (water polo)
 * Ashley Jones (soccer)


 * Is that Mitch? Can't see who you are. Don't disagree with your editorial decision - even though these guys were school legends on their time (!). Well, I knew Glen and Ahsley. Glen was often on TV playing basketball (cant work out where the water polo comes from, though he did play it also) Cor Unum 11:51, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, sorry, I must have misplaced my signature. ;) Thanks for putting some info on Glen Dunsmore in there... I'll be sure to ask a few people about the other guys (although I bet Lucas Neill has pretty much replaced them as the big "school legend" these days - with the soccer world cup and all). Mitch119 12:13, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Name change
I've changed the name of this article from St. Augustine's College, Brookvale to St. Augustine's College (Brookvale) because the school itself doesn't have "Brookvale" in its name. Because there are multiple St. Augustine's Colleges, I think it's best to have the location of each school after the name in brackets. I've noticed many other schools are named this way. Anyone disagree? Mitch119 08:52, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't disagree-except have you back=tracked and checked the hyperlinks to the former name of the article and changed them accordingly? cheers Cor Unum 09:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * All links to the former article will redirect to the new article. I re-directed the double-redirects to the new article so everything is in working order. Mitch119 11:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Use of "Brother" or "Sister"
Mitch - I'm not convinced by your gender idea here. The schools have always been referred to (in my hearing) by the Augustinian friars as "sister schools" because it's not about the gender of the students, but as I recall, the gender of the latin word "schola" (school) which is of the feminine gender in the language. Likewise nations are called "she" in English (like Britain "Brittannia" or France "Gallia" - whose images are females), and cities are called "she" (ie. sister-cities, not brother cities (although urbs/urbem in neuter gender in Latin I think- so I need to do some research on this. I recall Jobbie O'Brien teaching me that). The Germans weirdly call their nation the "Fatherland" (and look where it got them). No aspersions are being cast onto the boys of the school (or aged alumni like me either) by reference to "sister schools". I'll go away and look into this - but I'm pretty sure you're using a novel term here that is not traditionally the ways the schools have been described (and may be just wrong). I'll be back on this. I haven't reverted at this point. Call me obsessive - but that's wiki! Are you going go to the Black tie dinner I've just seen invites issued for through SAOBA? cheers Cor Unum 09:42, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I changed it initially because of the way Villanova was refered to as a "Brother school" in a recent St. Augustine's College newsletter. See here |here (PDF format). But really, I'm fine either way so I'll change it back to the more official name. And no, sadly I don't think I can make it to the dinner as I've got commitments for that weekend (9-10 Sept), but I'll see what happens. Mitch119 11:54, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Rating of the article
Hmm. Low importance? I will now stop spending much time on the article (I had been thinking on ways to improve it); though in this post-modern world you'd have to ask what those ratings actually mean in relation to particular schools and what they do or don't do. If wiki has a "schools project" then I presume there is some importance to categorising and identifying the nature of schools as seminal culture-building institutions within nations. In my view; a well-run Augustinian school (with clarity and scholarly appreciation as to its Augustinian approach) is important for a number of reasons - not least because it disseminates culturally quite directly one of the axiomatic philosophical approaches that have built the character of Western Civilisation. It has a philosophy with real clarity and character. There are only two in Australia that do this so deliberately. They are not Jesuit schools that select student acadmeically and therefore produce good academic results through intellectual discrimination. Is it realistic to consider Augustinian schools a low priority project if a reader is trying to understand why schools have different characters and how they change the social agenda? I disagree with the low priority rating. In the bigger picture of Australian schools, St Augustine's and Villanova provide a unique formation for students. The rating should be "mid".

Cor Unum 09:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I understand your concern, especially when you have put in a lot of effort to the project - keep in mind the importance rating is as part of all of WP:AUS. By the way, Jesuit schools don't necessarily select students academically, while St Aloysius' College does, St Ignatius' College, Riverview does not. Keep up the good work! Jpe|ob 09:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I've offended you in anyway with my rating, but please keep in mind that the rating of this article is in relation to all Australian wikipedia projects, rather than in relation to all schools featured on wikipedia. As you probably know, when I initially rated the school, I rated it as "Mid" importance. However, after learning I was required to leave "comments" justifying the rating I found it hard to formulate and come up with reasons why I rated the college at that rate. Because of my inability to do this, I instead took the easy way out and rated the school as "Low" importance. I'm sorry and apologize if you took offese to this. After reading your reasons of this rating I agree with you; the college should be rated at "Mid" importance. The school is quite well-known in Sydney (and especially so on the Northern Beaches) and is quite a rising 'force' in today's education market. I shall make a few edits to the "comments" section of the talk page, quoting what you have said here.

Secondly, I am very sad and I apologize that my brash and irresponsible edits have dulled your interest in editing and adding to this particular subject on Wikipedia. I (and a lot of other people) very much appriecate the amount of great work you have put into this article. On a more lighter note, it has come to my attention that the teachers of the college have "discovered" this article here on Wikipedia. They, so I heard, were very surprised that the article was even on here and so even more so that it was so in-depth! I have also heard that many current students have discovered this article here. This means (that since they're likely to be tempted to vandalize the page) that we must take care and fight against vandalism appearing on this page. Just a note. Happy editing! Mitch119 10:05, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

All is forgiven
No real offence taken - so no need to apologise. I have recovered my good humour now, and have restored my enthusiasm for the article. It's now all about getting the rating improved further by making the article better.

I looked again at the ratings: Mid This article is relatively important to this project, as it fills in some more specific knowledge of certain areas. Low This article is of little importance to this project, but it covers a highly specific area of knowledge or an obscure piece of trivia

And I am still convinced this article deserves a "mid" rating because it is describing a culturally formative institution like a school (for better of worse). This is not either very specific knowledge, obscure or trivia - rather it is trying to get a handle on an institution that pumps out (over 50 years) thousands of Australians who have formed values influenced by it, and who go on to implement these (for better or worse) in the broader culture.

The thing with institutions like schools and their character is the further they move along historically from the founders, the more they tend to compromise their values and become sort of indistinct and non-noteworthy; just part of the background. The good fortune of 20/21st century oz Augustinian schools is that they are now more Augustinian now than at their foundation, because the order is undergoing a focussed renewal in Augustinian studies (which actually have worthwhile content unlike some of the minor 19th century orders with founders tied to their historic milieu and lacking punch and relevance accross the centuries like Augustine). Augustinian governance arrangements in Australia ensure the order have significant input into their schools even through the friars are not on teaching staff in Sydney.

I have contacted some key Augustinians in Australia and Ireland to draw their attention to the articles - so I am glad this has reached the schools now. This should spark some decent debate about what should be in the article and get things going again. we may even get some more contemporary reports on what has happend to the music and drama in the school.

By the way- I didnt mean to be rude to the Jesuits; though it is quite true to say that Augustinians differ from Jesuits (at least officially) in terms of the principle of inclusiveness (and I might add the Brookvale school had academic entrance exams when I went there - my understanding is they have moved on from this non-Augustinian practice and stopped the entrance exams). Aloysius is academically selective; Riverview is economically selective (with the exception the scholarships they offer). The Jesuits have always been clear about their aims - and often they have favoured the targeting of the ruling classes and intellectuals (not all of course- look at them in South America!). And I don't mean to suggest this is wrong - just not Augustinian. Some of my best friends are Jesuits, and I respect their order - but their general character is remarkably different to Augustinians.

cheers Cor Unum 06:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Table of Contents
What has happened to the table on contents in this article? It seems to have vanished completely from sight. Mitch119 10:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Staugustines50thyearlogo.gif
Image:Staugustines50thyearlogo.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:24, 24 January 2008 (UTC)