Talk:St John Ambulance (England)

Proposed splitting of Wales and England & Islands sections
Since SJA in England (and the Islands) and Wales are operationally and administratively distinct, why should the organisations not have separate articles, just as SJA organisations in other countries? I am suggesting the titles St John Ambulance (England and the Islands) and St John Cymru Wales. --Kwekubo (talk) 17:59, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with splitting these articles to distinguish the different priories, within the Order of St John their are different priories for example the Priory of England (| SJA England Website) and the Islands and the Priory of Wales (| SJA Wales Website). England and the Islands and Wales are two seperate Priories within the Order of St John and should be seperate articles to distinguish this, i agree with Kwekubo that it is split into St John Ambulance (England and the Islands) and St John Cymru Wales. TomDWilliams (talk) 00:40, 14 November 2010 (UTC)

I also agree. Two separate articles would make more sense for the two separate organisations.  Timothy Titus Talk To TT  05:57, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * One note though - we need to give careful consideration to the article names. I DO NOT think that St John Cymru Wales is appropriate. The organisation's own website makes it clear that their official name is St John Ambulance Wales, whilst "St John Cymru-Wales" is used as a style on their logo. The article name should match the actual official name of the organisation, namely "St John Ambulance Wales". This would also match the style of the other national St John articles, all of which (apart from Hong Kong) are known as "St John Ambulance Country" or "St John Ambulance in Country". Timothy Titus Talk To TT  17:12, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


 * 'Support' - Though noting the above: the SJA in Wales website is inconsistent, it's varyingly St John, St John Wales, St John Cyrmu - Wales, St John Ambulance, St John Ambulance in Wales. The Charity Commission lists them as 	"ST JOHN AMBULANCE IN WALES (PRIORY FOR WALES)" and the English organisation as "ST JOHN AMBULANCE" - so I suggest "St John Ambulance in Wales" and "St John Ambulance in England" (the former being the name of the organisation, the latter being a descriptive term). PoisonedPigeon (talk) 18:56, 2 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, the article should definitely be split: I suggest we try to stick with the organisations' actual names, because that is what the articles are about. The Welsh article should definitely not include "Cymru" - like many public/voluntary-sector organisations, it uses a form of bilingual name, but formally the Welsh is separate, and the spirit of our naming conventions (though the letter does not extend to such names) is to use the most common, English title. ninety:one  22:46, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Result seems clear, so I've started the move process - do join in!  Timothy Titus Talk To TT  11:03, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Inaccuracies with information regarding St John Ambulance (England and the Islands)
Hi,

I look after PR for St John Ambulance in the UK, and it has come to our attention that a large portion of the content included on the St John Ambulance in England and Wales Wikipedia page is factually incorrect. We are two separate organisations and should be recognised as such but currently it looks like we are one organisation which may be confusing to viewers of the page. Much of the information about our organisation is inaccurate and, as we expect many of our followers to use this page as a basis for their knowledge of our organisation, it is imperative that we amend these mistakes as soon as possible.

We have already tried on a number of occasions to go in and edit the current copy, however our changes have been reverted almost immediately back to the original, incorrect facts.

If someone could get back to me as soon as possible regarding the best course of action, it would be much appreciated. I can be contacted at pr@sja.org.uk.

Many thanks, Emma Sheppard Head of PR St John Ambulance (the Priory of England and the Islands) 27 St John’s Lane, London, EC1M 4BU 020 7324 4211 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.105.163.251 (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Emma, It may be a good idea to create an account to do the editing with. It is common for some editors here to accidentally revert edits by IP users if they look like vandalism (even if they are not) Gavin  Ting  12:18, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I think everyone knows that SJA England and SJA Wales are two separate organisations. There is an on-going debate about whether to split to two pages - you are welcome to join in that debate. Many of us who regularly edit on this page are also members of St John Ambulance.  Timothy Titus Talk To TT  20:23, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Emma - sorry if you've experienced some difficulties in the past. As Gavin suggested, it's best if you register an account (top right hand corner) so your edits can all be attributable to you.
 * Regarding the incorrect information: the general rule on Wikipedia is that if you think something is incorrect, you either:
 * correct and and add a reference to support the change, or
 * remove it and raise it on the talk page.
 * Just going in and "correcting" something seem like the obvious thing to do, but remember - to another user, it'd look like another unsourced change.
 * It's also quite important that you note our guideline on conflicts of interest. The gist of it is that it's probably best if, when you see a problem or inaccuracy, you raise it on the article's talk page (as you have done here) rather than try to make the edit yourself - that is generally discouraged. I hope this is useful to you, and if you have any further questions or comments, please don't hesitate to raise them here. ninety:one  20:53, 3 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi Emma, one other point. I note you work for SJA in a PR capacity; I'm sure you've already registered (mentally) that this project is an encyclopedia and not a PR exercise - we have had experience in the past (with other organisations) of difficulty caused by the conflict between PR and fact - they are often based on the same underlying information, but with a differing 'spin'. I'm not suggesting there's anything wrong with SJA (as stated above, I'm a life-long member of the organisation), merely pointing out that we have to remain factually-based, and not part of a PR machine. The other advice above is all good - try using talk pages, try registering for an account, and use references when you make changes.  Timothy Titus Talk To TT  10:34, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Merger of Association & Brigade
This article quotes 1968 as the year of merger, but that cannot be correct. All through my active St John Ambulance Brigade career (in the 1980s) we were two organisations. All my paperwork (still extant) refers to us as "St John Ambulance Brigade" and all my training documents and certificates are issued by the "St John Ambulance Association". I personally was teaching English cadets about the two different organisations in the late 1980s. The two merged in different years in different countries. It was 1968 in India, 1945 in Ireland, and 1972 in Malaya. The merger in England & the Isles was, I think, in the early 1990s - I remember it happening. It would be good to get this date correct, and to find a source for it (an English source, bearing in mind that the date differs between different countries).  Timothy Titus Talk To TT  18:51, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

St. John and Scotland
Further to the comment about "Brigade" being correct for 1908 regarding cessation of operations in Scotland - it was _only_ the Brigade which ceased to operate in Scotland, the Order (under a different Priory) still operates providing charitable support for mountain rescue teams and others.--MBRZ48 (talk) 04:57, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Unreferenced sections
Hi, I've been employed by St John to review this page and ensure it is up to date. While reviewing the content, I've noticed that a lot of the information in the volunteering section is now unreferenced, and believe that, since the closure of the Members site, no relevant information now exists in the public domain. I have removed the following sections from the page for now, but would of course be happy to discuss their reinstatement, if people can point me in the direction of the correct information, although I would add that the information does seem to unbalance the content of the page as a whole, and might be better suited to a separate page on St John Ambulance volunteer qualifications. I've removed the following information:

Qualifications in First Aid and Allied Subjects
Qualification levels for first aid volunteers (in order that they have to be achieved):
 * Trainee First Aider (TFA)
 * First aider (FA)
 * Advanced first aider (AFA)
 * Patient transport attendant (PTA)
 * Emergency transport attendant (ETA)

Volunteers start as Trainee First Aiders and then, after a period of supervised practice and passing assessments, become first aiders, then, usually after a probationary period of six months or more and provided they can demonstrate significant experience as a first aider, they can move on to become Advanced First Aiders; then, if suitable, patient transport attendants (PTA) and finally, emergency transport attendants (ETA).

Beyond the initial qualification of First Aider, volunteers can train in additional medical skills as they progress up the qualifications ladder. Where previously members were able to study some of these advanced skills (such as administration of the medical gases oxygen and Entonox) as optional 'bolt-on' modules once they had reacted the level of First Aider, the use of medical gases is now a core Advanced skill and can only be performed by an Advanced First Aider. Similarly the use of an automated external defibrillator (AED) was previously held as an advanced skill which could be studied as an optional bolt-on, but is now incorporated as a core skill for all First Aiders. For those wishing to go further still, the organisation runs two internal qualification courses known as Patient Transport Attendant and Emergency Transport Attendant (formerly Ambulance Aid level 1 and 2 respectively). These build upon the first aid skills with additional skills required for ambulance crewing. Those attaining the first level are allowed to crew St John vehicles and provide Patient Transport services (PTS). Those attaining the second level are additionally called upon to crew emergency ambulances as necessary. Training of the Ambulance courses (especially the second) are sometimes undertaken or supplemented by the NHS Ambulance Services.

The use of Cycle Response Units has been introduced by the organisation. The cycles used by St John Ambulance are custom designed and built for the task, with strengthened frames to take the extra weight of the large quantity of medical equipment they carry, including oxygen cylinders and AEDs. Members acting as Cycle Response Units are additionally trained with commercial cycling courses and must demonstrate a reasonable level of fitness. They wear a dedicated cycle uniform, replacing the conventional operational uniform.

Trainee First Aider
Designed to be an introduction to what St John Ambulance is about, the course replaces the old 'induction' and brings in a variety of key skills and concepts vital for any future operational first aider. The two day course covers:


 * Communication & casualty care
 * Incident management
 * Primary Survey (casualty assessment)
 * Unconscious casualty & recovery position
 * Compression only resuscitation (Vinnie Jones style)
 * Bleeding & bruising (minor)
 * Burns & scalds
 * Fainting
 * Choking
 * Bites & stings
 * Shock (recognition & treatment)

IPC (Infection Prevention & Control)
 * Introduction
 * Personal hygiene
 * Care of uniforms
 * Effective hand hygiene
 * Effective use of PPE

Moving & Handling Principles
 * Relevant Health & safety information
 * Spinal Anatomy, relevant structure & function
 * Causes of back pain
 * Risk assessment & planning
 * Basic rules & positions

First Aider
Once members are familiar with basic first aid and life-saving skills, the First Aider course provides them with a very comprehensive look at a wide variety of first aid principles and skills. All further training builds on what is taught on this course. If members complete the course successfully, they are permitted to treat on duties as a First Aider. The course typically lasts two days and consists of practical and theoretical training and a final assessment of competence.

The syllabus consists of:


 * Role of the FA
 * Governance & documentation
 * PPE, Management of waste etc.
 * Resuscitation - Basic life support (all ages)
 * Resuscitation - Use of face shield / pocket mask
 * Secondary survey
 * Bleeding (severe)
 * Allergic reaction
 * Auto-injector
 * Low blood sugar
 * Bone, muscle & joint injuries
 * Asthma
 * Casualty management outdoors
 * Childhood conditions
 * Stroke
 * Seizures
 * Eye injuries
 * Head injury
 * Administration of medication
 * Chest pains
 * Mental Capacity Act (consent)
 * Meningitis
 * Abdominal pain
 * Heat + cold extremes
 * Poisons
 * Spinal injuries
 * Foreign objects (ear, nose, eye)
 * AED (Automated Defibrilator)
 * Incident management
 * Research into CPR & defibrillation
 * Basic anatomy and physiology of the heart
 * Practical Introduction to AED and use of AED protocol

Advanced First Aider
Once members have gained significant experience on duty and are confident with their first aid skills, they can progress to be an Advanced First Aider. This builds on their qualification as a First Aider by going into more depth about the medical conditions that AFA's may come across and by giving them the use of more advanced treatment and observation equipment. This added knowledge and improved skillset provides the AFA with more confidence when treating casualties, helping them to provide a higher standard of medical care.

The Syllabus includes:


 * Role of the AFA (inc. Governance & Documentation)
 * Blood oxygen measurement
 * Mental Capacity Act (consent)
 * Spinal immobilisation using collars
 * Fracture immobilisation using splints
 * Removing a crash helmet
 * Patient care positioning
 * Use of equipment carried on MTU
 * Body temperature measurement (tympanic / electronic)
 * Blood pressure measurement
 * Use of spinal boards

Medical gases are an advanced first aid skill and are extremely valuable in the right circumstances. Oxygen is used to treat critical conditions (such as cardiac arrests and asthma attacks) and Entonox is used in relief of severe pain (usually fractures). Members must have a good amount of experience before venturing into these skills; the Advanced First Aider must know when to use gases and what safety precautions must be taken.


 * Medical gas cylinders (safety, storage & preparation)
 * Oxygen - casualty assessment
 * Oxygen therapy (inc. suction & oropharyngeal airways)
 * Oxygen as an adjunct to resuscitation
 * Entonox as an analgesic gas (pain relief)

Moving & Handling for Advanced First Aiders
 * Use of carry chairs
 * Use of carry sheets
 * Use of folding (Furley) stretcher
 * Use of wheelchairs
 * Use of ambulance trolley beds

Patient Transport Attendant
This course is aimed at the scenario of transporting by ambulance a patient whose condition is stable (typically chronic) and not expected to deteriorate. For example, an inter-hospital transfer may fall into such a category. On its own, the qualification usually will not allow you to crew an ambulance on a duty and bears a strong resemblance to the Advanced First Aid qualification, although the skills gained can be useful on duty. There is a strong emphasis on good patient handling.

Moving and handling of patients/casualties (6 hrs)
 * PTA: Role & responsibility
 * Infection prevention & control (clinical)
 * Vehicle inspection & use
 * Ambulance familiarisation
 * Radio communication protocol
 * Patients with chronic conditions
 * Medical gases
 * Mental health
 * Safe manual handling techniques
 * Ambulance carry chair
 * Pole and canvas stretchers
 * Carry sheet
 * Furley stretcher
 * Orthopaedic scoop stretcher
 * Ambulance trolleys (Pioneer and Falcon)
 * Wheelchair

Emergency Transport Attendant
This covers the competencies needed to provide accident and emergency care inside and outside of an ambulance. It is a high level First Aid course with a rigorous examination at the end, and in addition to the time commitment for formal instruction, candidates should expect to put in extra practice time. Significant experience of hands-on First Aid is essential.

Patient Assessment:
 * Extended primary survey
 * Taking of observations (blood pressure, oximetry, chest auscultation and palpation)
 * Patient assessment scenarios
 * Fracture management
 * Use of ambulance trolleys
 * Spinal immobilisation: cervical collars, rescue board, scoop, KED
 * Head and chest trauma
 * Trauma and medical scenarios
 * Paediatrics
 * Maternity
 * Assisting the paramedic

Thanks and best wishes,

Ben

Benjaminbrill (talk) 09:01, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Work with young people section
Hi,

I've been employed by SJA to update this page. I've been unable to find references to the following subsection of Working with Young People, so have removed - happy to reinstate if people can point me to current content online or elsewhere.

Cadet leadership
Cadets in St John Ambulance are encouraged to attend cadet leadership courses. These courses are progressive and intended to give cadets the skills to take a more active role within their unit. The courses teach skills which enable cadets to be promoted to NCOs within their units. They can then progress and attend further courses designed to improve said skills. Ideally all cadets promoted to the ranks of cadet corporal or cadet sergeant should have completed Cadet Leadership 1, and those promoted to leading cadet should have completed Cadet Leadership 2. Both cadet leadership courses also count as a subject towards the cadet's Grand Prior Award. Following the Cadet Leadership 2 course, Cadet Leadership 3 allows cadets to learn the skills required to take on an assistant youth leader role within their units, and includes the BTEC-accredited Essential Skills in Youth Work course.

Best wishes,

Ben Benjaminbrill (talk) 09:17, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Vehicles
Hi - I'm being employed by SJA to update this page. I've been unable to find up to date information on the site about SJA vehicles, so have removed the section from the page. It's pasted below - if anyone can provide up to date links or content, I'm happy to reinstate/update.

Thanks,

Ben


 * With respect, that is a serious conflict of interest. WP:COI. Wikipedia pages are not maintained by their subjects. You should not be removing sourced material. As for material with deadlinks, that should also be left intact, and marked with a deadlink tag, so that editors can research fresh links.  Timothy Titus Talk To TT  15:03, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Vehicles
As individual (local) Divisions of St John Ambulance have historically been responsible for providing their own vehicles, these have taken many and varied forms, beginning with horse-drawn ambulances. Even into the late twentieth century, with some centralisation of control and classification of vehicle types such as Motor Ambulance Units (the title arising historically as a distinction from horse-drawn units), First Aid Posts and Rapid Deployment Vehicles, there remained within the organisation an enormous range of deployed vehicles of different types and even assorted local vehicle liveries. Some ambulances were donated second-hand from industrial plants, some were purchased (from different suppliers) and some were local conversions of commercial vehicles. At the start of the twenty-first century, new legislation regarding emergency ambulances effectively rendered a significant proportion of the then current St John Ambulance fleet redundant. The solution was the development of a specialist St John Ambulance vehicle, which was designed jointly by the organisation and vehicle manufacturer Renault. The result was the Crusader 900 ambulance.

An early assessment suggested that 100 of the Crusader ambulances (costing, at that time, £40,000 each) would be required immediately, representing an investment of £4 million. In 2000, St John Ambulance committed itself to raising £2 million by public subscription, whilst English and Welsh Freemasons committed a further £2 million, supplying 50 Crusader ambulances which were handed over in local ceremonies across the country during 2000 and 2001. This very large donation allowed the rapid transformation of the national St John Ambulance fleet of front-line ambulances within a much shorter time-scale than could otherwise have been possible. Subsequently, many local Provinces of Freemasons have maintained relations with their local St John Ambulance County units and supported the running costs of these vehicles or even donated further (additional) Crusader ambulances.

By 2004, the national St John Ambulance emergency vehicle fleet was in a standard corporate livery, with standard vehicle types:


 * Crusader - a front-line emergency ambulance, based on the Renault Master (or similar);
 * 4x4 Ambulance - a 4-wheel drive emergency ambulance, based on the Nissan Patrol (or similar), but with additional headroom, for rural and off-road deployment;
 * Support Vehicle - Either based on a Van, a Car or a 4x4 vehicle, Support Unit's can be used for a variety of purposes. For instance, a Support Car may be used to carry members to and from duties, in a logistical capacity, or even as a response vehicle on larger duties. Support Van's are normally used only for logistical purposes. Mini-buses are also available, and can be used for Logistics or Member Transport. Occasionally these are also used to transport low priority patients.

Specialist Vehicles
St John Ambulance also maintains specialist response options in particular locations, such as the Motorcycle Units, Cycle Response Units, as well as larger vehicles or trailers used as static First Aid posts.

Paid editing
I have tagged this article for COI and have added the connected contributor tag to the top of the article, as is a paid editor, who is not following the WP:COI guidelines and has directly and extensively edited this article. My attention was called to this by a posting a COIN here. Jytdog (talk) 19:40, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Naming Proposal
So I've been considering a way to organize the Wikipedia pages that deal with the Order of St John and St John Ambulance. Since the St John Ambulance is officially an organ of the Order of St John, it makes sense to me to change the name of all the national ambulance pages to something like Order of St John in (COUNTRY). What are your thoughts on that for this page? I'm posting similar requests for feedback on the other national ambulance pages. You can see my idea of how the navigation would look at my sandbox the newly created Order of St John in the United States page. I'd love to read any thoughts on this.--dave-- 01:08, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Well...it's been a month and a half an no objections have been raised here or elsewhere. I will, thus, move forward with some changes. Thanks!--dave-- 16:19, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on St John Ambulance (England and the Islands). Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20131203025604/http://member.sja.org.uk/ylt/Default.asp to http://member.sja.org.uk/ylt/Default.asp

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 09:54, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Updated 12/10/19
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I've done some tidying up: adding Physiotherapists as HCPs, removing the reference to non-paramedics having to qualify as a PTA/ETA in order to crew an ambulance (whether you are competant to crew an ambulance is now one of the points for discussion during the annual HCP appraisal, not automatically granted to paramedics, and not about doing the PTA/ETA course). I've also changed the LINKS section to update the new terminology of Student Volunteering, and fleshed out the section on volunteer training with an overview of what the different levels of training involve, as well as a few minor edits for clarity.

Someone simply reverted my edits in their entirety this afternoon without putting anything on the talk page, so I've rolled them forward again - do feel free to re-edit or criticize on the talk page.

Tom 31.185.38.9 (talk) 14:18, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Peer Review
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