Talk:St Just in Penwith/Archive 1

Cornwall Country designation - England or United Kingdom
"It's good to talk!" and this is the place for it.LessHeard vanU 21:14, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * there's actually a discussion going spread over the different User Talk pages User Talk:Steinsky, USer Talk: Pediac, I will try and move most of it here Mammal4 21:19, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

My fault for opening up the discussion page, I guess, but the following talk has very little to do with the article "St Just" in particular - more for Cornwall as a whole. Can someone with some tech skills find a proper venue for this (worthy) discussion, make a link and redirect wotsit, and either transfer the following or archive it? (ps. I am aware that I have contributed below.)LessHeard vanU 15:36, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The following is an archive of a discussion which was Started at User talk:Pediac, moved here, and continued at WikiProject UK geography. While discussion may be continued after this section, please do not alter the archive.  The concensus reached at WikiProject UK geography was that home nations should be mentioned in all articles about places in the UK.  No cencesus was reached regarding the additional mention of the United Kingdom, and this remains optional.  Joe D (t) 15:58, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

By removing context from place articles, which makes the articles less concise and less useful to Wikipedia readers, you give the impression that your motive in editing is not to improve the encyclopedia. I hope I am wrong in considering that posibility. Please stop! Joe D (t) 19:56, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Steinsky.... By replacing context from Cornish place articles, which makes the articles less concise and less useful to Wikipedia readers, you give the impression that your motive in editing is not to improve the encyclopedia. Why is it so necessary to emphasise Cornwall is in England all the time? Surely using "United Kingdom" is neutral enough to suit both POVs, and is still factual. Also the continual badging of Cornish articles with English flags is not helpful. Please stop! Pediac (t) 20:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Your childish reply does not fill me with confidence. There are several reasons why I consider you and Mammal4 to be incorrect that using UK is adequate and WP:NPOV, but right now arguing that point is not near the top of my priority list.  I have again reverted your edits to the infobox however, which are just plain incorrect, and had an irrelevant edit summary. Joe D (t) 04:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok guys - calm down! This England/United Kingdom issue keeps cropping up again and again see Talk:Carbis Bay. Neither England nor Uk is wrong. However, unlike other England geography articles, most writers for Cornwall entries use Uk. This is the consensus, and this opinion should be respected. I have tried to come up with some compromise on this, by using both England and Uk in the description (e.g St Just, Cornwall, England; a constituent of the United Kingdom. I think that this is the fullest answer, and covers both points of view, however, I have had no feedback on this.  Unless some sort of agreement is reached, then this will continue to crop up again and again.  I'm sure we could all spend our time better by improving the depth of content in these articles, rather than reverting back and forth over this small point! :)  Mammal4 20:40, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * I think UK should be correct, it is the political entity that is legally recognised outside of the British Isles (ps. that is a useful geographical term without political connections). The United Kingdoms are those of England and Scotland, and as the principality of Wales is included within the definition of Enland in that context - then Cornwall in whatever political interpretation is too. (er, does that make sense?) Mind you, I agree with the opinion of "lets get the article detail out, and worry about policy later".LessHeard vanU 23:14, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

However, unlike other England geography articles, most writers for Cornwall entries use Uk.
 * In my experience this is not true. A small number of editors systematically edit out references to England from Cornish articles, often making them factually incorrect in the process, e.g. with Land's End, Sennen, St Just and Cape Cornwall.  For example, the reference to England that you deleted from the intro to the Penzance article was added by a Mebyon Kernow member who recognises that Wikipedia is here to describe the world as it is, not how they wish it to be.  Most of the early articles about Cornish places described them in England, until these few hard working editors removed all such references.

This is the consensus, and this opinion should be respected.
 * Where was this consesus agreed upon? There is an appearence of consensus because a few POV pushers have devoted a lot of time to creating that appearence (and not much time to anything else on Wikipedia), which other Wikipedians without the vested interest have not been able to keep up with.

I have tried to come up with some compromise on this, by using both England and Uk in the description (e.g St Just, Cornwall, England; a constituent of the United Kingdom. I think that this is the fullest answer, and covers both points of view, however, I have had no feedback on this.  Unless some sort of agreement is reached, then this will continue to crop up again and again.  I'm sure we could all spend our time better by improving the depth of content in these articles, rather than reverting back and forth over this small point! :)  Mammal4 20:39, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
 * If you wish to discuss this further, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography may be the best place for it. Joe D (t) 04:20, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Just for the record, I did not edit out the England on Penzance's page as Steinsky suggests, but actually put it back in to try and resolve an editorial conflict. He is either confusing me with Pediac (who removed the England) or Reedgunner the hard working Mebyon Kernow editor? :) Mammal4 07:35, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


 * In reference to the comment about a small number POV pushers editing England out of Cornwall articles - having just looked through a lot of the articles in question, I'd say that firstly, it is not a small number but many different users who often also add significantly to the article with useful local knowledge, not rv ping pong with the term England (in the style of User:Team Kernow). Secondly, a Uk/England consensus was not agreed apon as such, but the fact that so many Cornwall editors write this means that it is worthy of discussion - Just because the original Stub creator wrote England does not make it bullet proof! - I have been trying to get some sort of agreement on this Steinsky, but you have ignored/not commented on the suggestions thar I have made! Mammal4 08:32, 1 May 2006 (UTC)(t)

Here is some previous discussion from Talk:Carbis Bay that I think is relevent
Steinsky, Is there a wiki-policy on this Uk/England thing with respect to Cornwall? A lot of the Cornish towns and villages entries I feel could do with expansion/wiki-integration, and as I know something about this, I am prepared to put in the work here. I notice this England/Uk thing cropping up on several pages going back and forth between the two designations. Some of these seem to be motivated by Cornish nationalist sentiment; the place for which I think is here where there is a well balanced article discussing both sides. I personally think that Uk is the better way of stating the designation. It’s not wrong to say England, but England is not a fully autonomous country (there is no English parliament), being part of the United Kingdom. It would make sense to me that the location be stated using the larger political unit - the United Kingdom signs national treaties and has membership of the EU, not England. Carbis Bay, Cornwall, England, UK would also be fine I suppose, but I think it is a bit longwinded! What do you think? - R 11-Apr-06I don’t really want to get stuck in the middle of some editor clash, I would rather spend my time improving these Cornwall entries, but would also rather that the entries I expand be consistent - Mammal4.


 * England is probably the most concise way of describing it--go for a larger area and you loose some of the details, go for a smaller area and half the readers won't know what you're talking about. 95+% of settlements in the UK use the home nation, so it's also good to keep some consistency between articles. Joe D (t) 15:07, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * There is some merit to what you say about consistency, it does seem that a lot of the articles use the home nation. However, it certainly seems much more prevelant in the Cornish settlement articles that either Uk is used, or that there is some friction over the use of terms.  It seems sensible to come to some sort of compromise about this, otherwise people who have a problem with the idea of Cornwall being part of England will continually keep coming in and changing the wording to country of Cornwall, or Duchy of Cornwall - I even saw Palatine of Cornwall somewhere!  If wikipedia is about consensus then it would seem sensible to include this variation in opinions into the articles.  I think that United Kingom is actually more concise, as it includes more information about the geo/political status, but understand that you think England should be included.  How about something like "Carbis Bay is a bay, beach and village near St. Ives in the county of Cornwall, England, United Kingdom" or "Carbis Bay is a bay, beach and village in the southwest of England in the county of Cornwall,United Kingdom"?  - Mammal4 11-Apr-06


 * Don't see the issue here. England and UK are both true; both terms are equally well known and England is the more precise term. So England should be preferred. If there is a consistency issue we can change the other articles. DJ Clayworth 17:48, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Cornwall has a small but active nationalist element. The debate seems to be whether changing the style of one of the identifying larger political units. as an edit of itself, is NPOV. A very loose analogy would be the spelling of Quebec/Quebecque being a matter of edit/reversion.LessHeard vanU 18:32, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Cornwall is not legally a part of England, it has been illegally occupied by English forces since the 14th century,. it was illegally annexed by England some time in the 15th century. Describing Cornwall as being part of England is factually incorrect and promotes ingnorance of Cornish history and it's identity
 * Er... can you give an example of a legal annexation? Just point to a country or culture that said to a neighbour, "Please could you send a large body of men over our borders, kill or incapacitate our armed forces, remove the existing hierachy and impose your rules which favour yourselves."? Actually, all annexations are legal since it is the who annexors make the rules and are generally very nasty to those who disagree. I hope this sets you right about that part of your comment. LessHeard vanU 15:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * This page is for discussing editorial issues relating to the village of St Just, it is not intended as a general chat forum. The editorial issue in question was settled months ago.
 * a)I wasn't commenting on the validity of the Cornish Nationality question, I was poking holes in the grammatical illogic of illegal annexation, b)the Penwith Project advocates the use of both England and UK, and c) please sign your comments.... ;~) LessHeard vanU 18:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * a) I was replying to the anon, not you. b) I know, I took part in those discussions. c) oops, I got so carried away formating the above discussion as an archive that I forgot to finish writing my comment! :) Joe D (t) 20:55, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Plain or plein?
The article indicates a place known as "Plain an gwarry" the image "Plein an gwarry", any preferences? I'm for "Plain" as we call it locally. Serpren (talk) 06:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Probably just a spelling mistake - I've only ever seen "plain". DuncanHill (talk) 06:28, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Family memories (moved from main page)
I have moved the following from the main page, where it was added by an anon IP editor: Most of the following information was given to me by my Grandmother Mrs Harriet Georgina Spray whose maiden name was Millett. Grandmother Spray "sprang" from the Bosavern Millets of St. Just in Penwith. She was born in 1875 and lived with her parents and 16 brothers and sisters at "Venayre" Lelant. It is several years since I visited St.Just in Penwith Chuch so my memory is not so sharp but I remember from compiling the family history (with help from my Grandmother)that in St. Just Church Lady Chapel; beneath the floor (which is now carpeted), lie several members of the Millett Family. On the wall of the Lady Chapel there are also several names of the Millet family who died in the same year; maybe of some disease?. The Milletts originally came from France in the 1600's. The Millets of Bosavern, St. Just,were quite a large large family and became renowned in St Just and Cornwall - they made their fortunes in mining and farming. They also did a bit of smuggling - Brandy maybe? - One story told to me by my Grandmother was that of one of the female Millets who had a Revenue Officer as a fiance, (which could have been quite awkward if the family was involved in smuggling) - One night during a confrontation between the Revenue Officers and smugglers on Sennen beach the fiance was shot dead. - Convenient or what? It was told to me that sadly the female Millet died soon after this incident, of a broken heart. One of the Millet family became Vicar of St. Just Church. Im not sure when but when lime and plaster were being taken of the walls of St. Just Church at sometime, ancient wall paintings were discovered - one being of St. George killing the Dragon? Moved by DuncanHill (talk) 11:33, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

St Just in "Penwith"
Since the District Council of Penwith was abolished 1st April 2009, does this article need moving to a new title - such as "St Just in West Cornwall"? I am minded to keep it as it is, since it is currently the usual term used and also the old District was based around the original Hundred of Penwith so might be considered as historically accurate anyway. I am posting this here, in the hope of a few replies, so that if it does stay like it is then some young whippersnapper cannot come along and move it to some new title with the excuse that there was no discussion about the "wrong" name. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:28, 14 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The hundred of Penwith existed many centuries before the District was established in 1974; changing it also complicates the distinction from St Just in Roseland.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 14:16, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

Most westward town?
Per this comment, "According to Ordnance Survey St Just at 5deg 40 West is not the most westerly town in the UK. This honour goes to Mallaig in Scotland which is situate at 5 deg. 49 West." which was added as an edit to the article page, and a quick look at the geo numbers on both articles, I have changed the text. I note that St Just was said to be the most westward in mainland Britain, and have been unable to ascertain whether Mallaig is on the mainland - but it appears to be. Anyone more familiar with this stuff is welcome to confirm or revert the article. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:47, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * From looking at a map, I'd say that Mallaig was on the mainland, so I'd stick with your edit. If you're still unsure you might want to ask this on the Mallaig article talk page - as also it might be useful to include this fact, with regards to Mallaig, on its page. Zangar (talk) 14:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Mallaig certainly is on the mainland. These things can be hard to define in absolute terms.  Acharacle is a post town and its centre is perhaps marginally further west still.  Kilchoan lies much further west, and is the main settlement for many miles around, but probably couldn't be described as a town.  I have to say it seems to me slightly absurd to class reading a map as original research, but it's hard to see how it should be cited.  We have a similar problem with editors claiming that Fair Isle is closer to Orkney than Mainland Shetland &mdash; if you read the map and do your Pythagoras it clearly isn't, but it's difficult to provide a reference for this.  --Deskford (talk) 22:38, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think we can go by "verifiable" to say that St. Just is most westerly on mainland England & Wales, even if not sourced, since all of the above are in Scotland and I am certain that there are references for St Just being "most westerly" (but of what?). The Scottish towns mentioned may need to find sources if they are to be described as "most westerly". LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:22, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd assume that this source is good for St Just, as it is produced by the BBC, even though not a mainstream news article it's not a blog. And there's always this one for Mallaig, although it notes it's the most westerly port and not town. Zangar (talk) 12:50, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I note that the penultimate paragraph of the Mallaig ref refers to the place in a contemporary phrase as being a village. I suppose a bit of research should find out whether the place has a town council or is otherwise deemed a town, but that is perhaps something for the Mallaig article editors to attend to. I shall copy this comment to that talkpage. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:01, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * A further reference on the Mallaig article page refers to the place as a village. I shall amend the St Just article to note most westerly mainland town. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:09, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

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