Talk:Staff (music)

Note that terms suck as quaver and breve aren't use in the united states. They shouldn't be necessary for Musical staff information. --Sketchee 06:08, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)

This was on the Musical staff page itself. I removed and put it here

This is a STUB. More words could be moved here from Musical notation


 * This article is roughly merged from two other pages. Will work on it later -- Tarquin

By the way, it looks like this page need edition, as nobody made it better yet. Any volunteer? Yves Done. Stuff I've removed is below -- Tarquin 11:00 Sep 10, 2002 (UTC)


 * used for musical notation. A note is symbolised by a round symbol, which may be on a line between two lines or touching an outer line. A 5-line staff so provides places for 11 notes. The notes are spaced according to a diatonic scale, whose key is specified by the key signature.
 * The musical staff is a set of five parallel horizontal lines and the four spaces between them. Lines and spaces are assigned notes by means of a clef, which is placed at the beginning of the staff. Ledger lines are used to write notes above or below the range of the staff. The musical staff can be thought of as a graph of pitch with respect to time; pitches are roughly given by their vertical position on the staff, and notes on the left are played before notes to their right.

What? Hyacinth 19:18, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Stave" is probably an incorrect backformation of the plural, like saying "loave", "leave", "beeve", etc.

Staves were not always fixed at five lines -- in particular five is not the most that was used, nor were all staves in one publication the same. eg Girolamo Frescobaldi's Toccate d'Intavolutura had grand staves of six lines over eight, a mindbending thing to try to play from. User:Kwantus|Kwantus 23:56, 2005 May 8 (UTC)


 * Re: "'Stave' is probably an incorrect backformation of the plural, like saying 'loave', 'leave', 'beeve', etc."


 * The Oxford English Dictionary puts it thus: "[A back-formation from staves pl. of STAFF n.]." TheScotch 07:36, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Great stave
User:84.51.162.26 just changed the following
 * grand staff (British - great stave)

to internationalisation
 * great stave(Brit) or grand staff (Am)

labelling it "internationalisation". This does not reflect my understanding of the MOS on international English. This article is written in American English, and British terms should be in parentheses. It's impossible to write articles trying to give equal weight to different terms. Comments? &mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 00:16, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I think that was the right thing to do. The appropriate guideline is Manual of Style. Neither dialect is dominant enough in music to justify giving more weight to one term or the other when presenting them initially. The only reason for choosing either AmE or BrE for articles like this is the first editor's preference, which in this case is American English. Hairy Dude 13:26, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I just looked up staff and stave in Grove on-line. Grove is a British work--at least the first and second editions were British works. The Stave entry says merely, "See Staff." The Staff entry uses staff repeatedly as the singular form and staves repeatedly as the plural form and does not mention stave at all (nor, for that matter, does it mention staffs). In the first place, I don't see why wikipedia music articles should not follow Grove's example--in this respect and most others. In the second place, although it does appear ancedotally that stave is more common in England than it is in the United States, I'm not yet convinced that England is monolithic in this regard. TheScotch 06:28, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

The Oxford English Dictionary records that staff, in the musical sense, has been used in England since at least 1662. TheScotch 06:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

All of the above in respect of British use of the word "Stave" seems true (early editions of Grove say "see Staff", it's a back-formation, etc.), but as of 2008 British classical musicians overwhelmingly use the word "stave" (e.g. "off the stave", "four-line stave", etc etc.). Regardless of what is more historic, I think Wikipedia should reflect modern usage. (JB, 8pm on a Monday in August 2008). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.73.26.129 (talk) 19:02, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

"Unified notation" or however it should properly be called -- Often, in old audio sequencing software (specifically on the old b&w macs), a "grand staff" (bass+treble) was used as interface to enter and display notes. The two staffs/staves(?) however were laid out in a way that a space, equivalent to one line - representing the middle C - separated the upper and lower staves. I guess the best way to explain it, would be as a single, large 11-line staff with the center line being "transparent". Of the remaining 10 lines, 5 were on top (treble clef) and 5 were on the bottom (bass clef) This gave a linear approach to representing pitch across the audible spectrum, as opposed to having piano-style separate staves, one for each hand, which pitch ranges (normally) obviously overlap.

Does anyone understand what i'm talking about, and if so, how come there's so little usage of such notation?

(oops, forgot to sign) Delt01 20:35, 15 August 2012 (UTC)


 * There's little usage of that notation because:
 * when staves were invented they usually only used one at a time (and are still mostly used that way today)
 * Grand staves are principally used for piano music, and generally each staff represents the music for one hand, so you might need ledger lines below the treble staff or above the bass staff
 * The space between the staves is needed for dynamics, slurs, and other expression notation.
 * There were some experiments in the early 17th century in which staves with more than 5 lines were used for keyboard notation, but it was quickly abandoned. &mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 22:05, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Score
It would be nice if this article, or probably a new separate article discussed the historical development and typical layouts of a full symphony orchestra score (+choir), band score, misc instrumental scores, etc. This page looks like a good starting place for ideas for organizing this kind of information. The sheet music article also seems to want to relate somewhat to this idea, although neither this page, that one, nor any other pages that I've seen discuss this topic at all. If I have some time, perhaps I could begin such an article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.70.15.180 (talk) 17:51, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree that this would be a useful topic, but it probably belongs on the sheet music page, not here. &mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 23:27, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Runes

 * "In runes stave is vertical line. Staveles runes exist. in Polish language stawi prononce stave mean put into standing position"

This doesn't seem to have anything to do with music, so I've removed it. Puckdude 05:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Bad Article
Really... bad. Buster 18:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Missing History!
I was very disappointed to find absolutely nothing about the history and development of the staff. --a sincere reader —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.201.182 (talk) 19:51, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I have heard that there was historical 11-lined staff called "the great staff". Let me dig into it. --Octra Bond (talk) 08:04, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There is some here: Musical notation and here: Neume. But agreed, this page could use some more history. &mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 16:44, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Alright, I looked around on some other articles, and found some information [on the history of the staff] and paraphrased it into here. These music pages didn't have any citations, though.  I'll see if I can find any. Rustyfence (talk) 14:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

heh, see comment i just added under "great stave" =) Delt01 20:45, 15 August 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Delt01 (talk • contribs)


 * C.Sachs in his "The Rise of Music in the Ancient World" suggests that staff notation, which is a bit illogical for the western music based on octaves (why if you put note on a line, note octave higher will go between lines?) is reminiscent of third-based music from early-medieval Europe. Maybe some more research has been done on this topic within last 60 years? 83.31.186.113 (talk) 21:29, 14 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I've rewritten the history section to provide more detail. Still looking for an image example of Guido's staff with the F-line colored red and the C-line colored yellow. The reason for the seeming illogic mentioned above is that at the time staves were invented people thought of melodies in terms of hexachords, so octave transposition really didn't enter into their consciousness. This predated "third-based music" -- the principal polyphonic music of the time was parallel organum. &mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 18:22, 15 March 2013 (UTC)

physics of sound
http://method-behind-the-music.com/mechanics/physicsPhysics of Sound Traveling Waves

Sound is produced when something vibrates. The vibrating body causes the medium (water, air, etc.) around it to vibrate. Vibrations in air are called traveling longitudinal waves, which we can hear. Sound waves consist of areas of high and low pressure called compressions and rarefactions, respectively. Shown in the diagram below is a traveling wave. The shaded bar above it represents the varying pressure of the wave. Lighter areas are low pressure (rarefactions) and darker areas are high pressure (compressions). One wavelength of the wave is highlighted in red. This pattern repeats indefinitely. The wavelength of voice is about one meter long. The wavelength and the speed of the wave determine the pitch, or frequency of the sound. Wavelength, frequency, and speed are related by the equation speed = frequency * wavelength. Since sound travels at 343 meters per second at standard temperature and pressure (STP), speed is a constant. Thus, frequency is determined by speed / wavelength. The longer the wavelength, the lower the pitch. The 'height' of the wave is its amplitude. The amplitude determines how loud a sound will be. Greater amplitude means the sound will be louder.

Properties of a wave Interference

When two waves meet, there can be two kinds of interference patterns; constructive and destructive. Constructive inteference is when two waveforms are added together. The peaks add with the peaks, and the troughs add with the troughs, creating a louder sound. Destructive interference occurs when two waves are out of phase (the peaks on one line up with troughs on the other). In this, the peaks cancel out the troughs, creating a diminished waveform. For example, if two waveforms that are exactly the same are added, the amplitude doubles, but when two opposite waveforms are added, they cancel out, leaving silence.

Constructive and destructive interference Standing Waves

Vibration inside a tube forms a standing wave. A standing wave is the result of the wave reflecting off the end of the tube (whether closed or open) and interfering with itself. When sound is produced in an instrument by blowing it, only the waves that will fit in the tube resonate, while other frequencies are lost. The longest wave that can fit in the tube is the fundamental, while other waves that fit are overtones. Overtones are multiples of the fundamental. The areas of highest vibration are called antinodes (labeled 'A' on the diagram), while the areas of least vibration are called nodes (labeled 'N' in the diagram). In an open pipe, the ends are antinodes. However, in a pipe closed at one end, the closed end is a node, while the blown end is an antinode. Thus, closed pipes yield only half the harmonics.

Fundamental and harmonic standing waves Transverse Waves

If a string that is fixed on both ends is bowed or plucked, such as in a violin, vibrations are formed that are in a standing wave pattern, having nodes at the fixed ends, and an antinode in the center. Several harmonics are also produced, in a similar way to the standing wave.

Different modes of transverse waves Overtones

Overtones are the other frequencies besides the fundamental that exist in musical instruments. Instruments of different shapes and actions produce different overtones. The overtones combine to form the characteristic sound of the instrument. For example, both the waves below are the same frequency, and therefore the same note. But their overtones are different, and therefore their sounds are different. Note that the violin's jagged waveform produces a sharper sound, while the smooth waveform of the piano produces a purer sound, closer to a sine wave. Click on each wave to hear what it sounds like. Keep in mind that all are playing the same note.

A sine wave The waveform of a violin THe waveform of a piano Try It Yourself - Interact With Sound

To help understand how sound works, download MouSing. It's a software theremin: an electronic instrument that allows direct control of pitch and amplitude. By moving your mouse horizontally across the screen, you alter the wavelength of the sound being produced, and thus the pitch (displayed in Hz on the bottom of the program). The higher the frequency, the higher the pitch. By moving the mouse vertically, you alter the volume, or amplitude, of the wave. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shiblee Shahed (talk • contribs) 09:10, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Staves (staffs?) extending beyond 4 octaves?
Update: Ok, I found a partial answer to my question which prompted more questions. I won't repeat all of it here, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Piano#Update:_The_diagram_looks_wrong_.28was:_.22Explain_the_8_and_15_in_the_diagram_which_shows_the_range_of_the_piano.3F.22.29

But, I have one additional unanswered question that I didn't ask there--how is it that 8 represents one octave and 15 represents two octaves? It seems to me it should be 8 and 16 (or maybe 7 and 15).

Original Question: — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rhkramer (talk • contribs) 18:57, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I think the easiest way to ask my question is this--please look at the Piano article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano), and, specifically, at the grand staff shown in the box in the upper right hand corner of the page intended to show the range of the piano.

Notice the use of the 8 and the 15--presumably, they are somehow allowing the entire 7 octave range of the piano to be shown on the grand staff, which normally can show only about 4 octaves.

Can someone explain how to interpret those marks (and any other marks on the grand staff that are relevant to my question)?

Shouldn't that be explained somewhere in this article?

Hmm, I'm debating whether to also repeat this comment question on the Piano talk page--I'll do so and mention there that I've put the same question here--I'm hoping someone with the relevant knowledge will find the question one place or the other.

Rhkramer (talk) 17:57, 21 April 2013 (UTC)


 * The numbering of intervals is inclusive of the points on both ends, so a second is two adjacent notes. Two notes with one in between (ignoring some details) is a third, even though it's twice as far. So the arithmetic doesn't really work. You have to move up seven "white keys" to get to the octave, but since we count both ends, that make the interval of an eighth, or octave; twice that far is 14 notes, which adding both ends gives a Fifteenth. Music terminology was definitely not created by scientists. Hope this explanation helps; more detail available at Interval (music). &mdash;Wahoofive (talk) 21:18, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Great and grand stave (or staff)
The article gets this wrong. It gives no indication that the earlier and indeed primary application – at least of "grand stave [or staff]" – is for a more-or-less fictitious entity with eleven lines, the middle one being a line for middle C. I cited OED in support of my fix for this, but was summarily reverted. Standards are lower since I was editing here, that's for sure. I have applied a "Dubious" tag, and it should stay until there is a careful improvement on this point. One that is supported by sources. 49.190.56.203 (talk) 00:13, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

The use of "pentagram" as an alternative to "staff"/"stave"
Even though the word "pentagram", indeed referring to the five lines of the present-day musical staff, has seen occasional use in the music world, I was not able to trace the origin of its use, and major dictionaries all seem to list the word as referring only to the five-pointed star. Does any additional source exist that can justify this use, or is this word merely an artifical borrowing from another language, such as Spanish pentagrama? – StrongestStrike (talk) 12:46, 21 December 2023 (UTC)