Talk:Staines-upon-Thames/Archive 1

London Stone
I have made a slight edit, changing a portion of the text pertaining to 'the London Stone' to emphasise that it is distinct from the 'actual' London Stone (located in Cannon Street in the City). I also removed the link (which was to the Cannon Street stone Wikipage) since I couldn't see any relevence or connection. Feel free to change it back however if I am incorrect 81.132.19.234 04:41, 21 November 2005 (UTC) Cheers, Fatbob

Jewish Rabbi
Does this article need the word 'Jewish' in front of the word 'Rabbi' (which surely should be capitalised? chrisboote 13:53, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

David Tennant?
David Tennant (the current Dr Who as of January 2007) is listed under famous residents. I'm not aware he has any connection with the town. Can anyone provide a citation for this listing? Robertf999 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.188.103.123 (talk) 23:19, 6 January 2007 (UTC).

Oldest Pub
Where does the information that the Jolly Farmers is the third oldest pub in England come from? I've lived in or near Staines for 60 years and have NEVER heard this. Egham1 23:26, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The Ostrich, in Harmonsdworth also claims to be the 3rd oldest pub. I've never heard that about the Jolly Farmer either chrisboote 12:53, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Appears it was the Weatsheaf and Pigeon but appears to have been changed to the Jolly farmers on the 20th of December 05. I have reverted to original XadamX13:00 January 2006 (CET)


 * It still has to be verified that the Wheatsheaf and Pigeon is the 3rd oldest pub in England. The editors have also asked for a citation for this statement.  British History Online references the Cock, Swan, Hart, and the George as being mentioned in 15th and 16th century but no mention of the Wheatsheaf.  URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.asp?compid=22225


 * I would vote that unless this is qualified by the 21st February, it is removed. Anyone second this? XadamX 12:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I second that. Dpoulter 18:30, 10 Feb 2006


 * This has now been removed. 193.254.155.48 13:15, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

The Wheatsheaf and Pigeon (known locally as the "Wee and Pee") used to be my local. It is not the third, nor hundred and third, nor thousand and third oldest pub in the country. It may possibly be the ten thousand and third oldest pub. On a similar note, I have removed references to a putative Trabant owner's club meeting in town. Someone's having a laugh. I shall be keeping an eye on you.

58.10.64.227 10:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC) So who are you?

The Jolly Farmer (assuming I correcly understand which pub you mean - opposite The Swan?) is south of the Thames, and therefore in Egham Hythe anyway. Claval 16:44, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

More Ali G
We need more Ali G references, maybe a whole section, especially one talking about the irony of him saying he is from the Westside of the Staines Ghetto.
 * And how West Staines Community center is going to be demolished for another heathrow runway...but "who cares...Satines is a ****hole..." --Dee4leeds 14:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

As the reason most people have heard of Staines is through Ali G, yes he deserves mention. But he's not real so not in the History section! MorganaFiolett 13:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I think he deserves more of a mention - the choice of Staines was deliberate as it represents a typical suburban middle-class area with lots of wannabe Gangsta youths. --MartinUK 23:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Michel Le Gray / french resistance
The article Michel Le Gray is up for deletion, and the consensus so far is that it is a complete hoax. See Articles for deletion/Michel Le Gray. This article (Staines) includes the following:

''Staines was famed during World War II as the English base of the French war resistance.[1] The council offices have an extensive collection of artifacts once belonging to the resistance on semi permanent display. Of particular distinction in the display are the personal possessions of Michel Le Gray, a prominent member of the French resistance (of Polish descent) who returned to battle the Germans on the day they evacuated Paris, but was tragically shot by a farmer protecting his livestock, while travelling through the French countryside at night. A plaque honoring Michel Le Gray can also be found on Thames Side.''

The references provided in the article do not seem to verify this at all. Can anyone verify any of it? There is also a picture in the article, supposedly of Le Gray, supposedly from the "Staines archives". heqs 06:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Removed disputed/hoax sections and fake refs. heqs 08:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Another example of this humourous hoaxers work can be found at search.com under Michel_Le_Gray  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.73.170.59 (talk) 13:02, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Pontes
Should not it be Ad Pontes 'At the Bridges', referring to bridges over the Thames and the Colne. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.73.170.59 (talk) 13:52, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Famous residents
You see to have forgotten about the "prince of cricket" Ranjitsinhji who owned Jamnager House by the Thames in Staines.

Brian Connolly, lead singer of the group Sweet from the 1970's lived in Staines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.20.206.92 (talk) 03:42, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Willing?
"Staines has two football clubs; Staines Town F.C and Staines Lammas F.C that are both willing." - willing to do what? I'm American, so maybe that's English slang, but it doesn't make any sense to me. --AW (talk) 22:45, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Anyone? --AW (talk) 07:27, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

German news


--Stone (talk) 15:41, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Change of name
Why is there no mention of the attempts to change the name to "Staines-upon-Thames" from the plainer "Staines"? Surely an official name change by the local authorities is of historical importance.--User:stoggler 11:27, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Editing War!
Oh my goodness! We seem to have a real editing war going on between two or three people who keep reverting each other’s edits and adding more and more pointed references to back up their own ideas. Can we please discuss this on this page, agree on a middle ground and then edit the main page accordingly. It seems as though one source says that there was a high level of support for this name change, whilst looking more carefully into the maths of the situation reveals that support may have been less enthusiastic than the councillors would have us believe. This is something that I’m sure has happened before with council decisions all over the country. It raises questions of proportional representation, size of consultation group, level of response and many other issues.

However, can we just say something along the lines of,
 * “There will be a formal ceremony on 20 May 2012 to mark the official renaming. This follows enthusiastic discussions as to whether to go ahead with the change. Parties on both sides of the decision put forward good arguments for and against the new name and there was much discussion as to whether the general populace was truly in favour of the change. The idea to change the name originated with the Spelthorne Business Forum, however others, including local football team Staines Town F.C., campaigned against the change.”

By dropping the issues involving numbers we can talk about the change, mention the contention involved, and yet stay neutral. What do we think? AndrewJFulker (talk) 12:34, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * There are so many things wrong with what you have written here, I will respond to it after Northern Winter responds on his talk page. Moriori (talk) 20:29, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
 * I’d like to know which bit you disagree with. Is it discussing the article here before we edit? Or do you not want to compromise on a middle ground? Or is it remaining neutral that you don’t agree with?


 * I appreciate that my suggested wording is by no means definitive, that’s why I said it could be ‘something along the lines of’. I felt that my comments might help stop the edit war, open up discussion of the article in the correct place, and help us move on with a more non-contentious article in line with the rules on neutrality. I’m perfectly happy for you, or any other contributor, to suggest a different edit that helps us in this direction and ends the public argument that we have seen in the last few days. AndrewJFulker (talk) 12:58, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Hi - This is Northern winter. Thank you, AndrewJFulker, for your defence of my edit. My apologies if I am not going about this the right way, and if this is not the correct place to issue a cry for help, but I found Moriori's edits of the Staines Wikipedia page to be unnecessarily polarising. I accepted his (or her) first point that my counter-arguments were not properly references, so I re-wrote it after it had initially been deleted by Moriori. In return, I received a threat of being banned from editing, which seemed a bit harsh; he also pointed out that the pages I had referenced were not very clear, and I accept that is true. However, they do say what I said they did, and it's hardly my fault if pages on an external site (an official site of the local authority) were not presented all that well. However, the pages exist, and they are not ambiguous. The "70-80%" claim would appear to be fictitious or at best anecdotal, however. I have never before been involved in an "editing war" nor have I had cause to respond to anyone about any of the few edits I've made, so I had no idea I was expected to (or even allowed to) respond to Morioni, and even less idea how to do so. I feel that your suggested working above is really not too bad - at least it does let the reader know that the change was far from universally popular, which was really the point I was trying to make, and which was certainly not brought out by Morioni's edits. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Northern winter (talk • contribs) 15:08, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
 * So let's see what you have actually been doing.
 * You removed valid information from the article, sourced to the BBC
 * You later added unsourced POV
 * You later changed referenced information by inserting unreferenced information
 * You did the same thing again later, but this time with a different figure
 * I reverted your edit, and you then removed the entire fully referenced sentence. You must have seen my edit summary, "RV the referenced info"
 * MRSC reverted you, and left the edit summary "Reverted content blanking"
 * Yet again you removed referenced material and replaced it with information which is very POV.
 * I reverted, with the edit summary "rv to referenced, and minor addition". Your reverted yet again, without explanation.
 * I reverted again, with the edit summary "rv to referenced version". You reverted once, today, without an edit summary.


 * You continually removed valid information which was adequately sourced. You never left edit summaries. You never took notice of others' edit summaries. You never responded to two message left on your talk page re removing referenced material. You inserted POV such as "pitifully small" response, "mere 2%" etc. You have inserted other information which is anti name change, such as the unreferenced "the proposal has proved unpopular among Staines residents." You say here the "70-80%" claim would appear to be fictitious or at best anecdotal". That is your POV, and it is inaccurate because the stat comes from a verifiable, reliable source. Read the first sentence at WP:VERIFY. It says the "threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."


 * The information you have put in the article, replacing valid information is a gross cherrypicking distortion of the references you provided.


 * You trawled numbers to show a low response to the consultation, as if that should somehow negate the whole thing.


 * Somehow you missed the council summary given in one of your references, namely, "A total of 662 responses from individuals and organisations were received, of which 428 were supportive. Looking at types of respondents both businesses and Staines wards residents had a majority of responses in favour."


 * Two thirds of the respondents were in favour.


 * I am removing the information which I have demonstrated is unbalanced, and I am restoring the information which is adequately sourced.


 * User:Northern winter, please read the message i have left on your talk page at User talk:Northern winter. Moriori (talk) 00:31, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Moriori - I shall leave a message on your talk page. AndrewJFulker (talk) 20:00, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
 * So you did. Pity you didn't first read and comprehend the info two posts above this. Maybe then you wouldn't have insulted me. Moriori (talk) 20:46, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Why do we edit?
Dear DavidStaines, thank you for your recent contribution, it is appreciated. However this page seems to be under the constant supervision and sole control of one particular editor. Nobody is sure why they have the authority to overrule all other contributors and they will freely delete your posts, even if they are adequately referenced. You could try to fight them (believe me others have) but you will not win. They will delete what you write, dismiss your references as biased and even block you from editing if you don’t agree with them. I don’t think they live in Staines, but they think that they know more about it than those who do. But, once again, thank you for your contribution, we read it in the edit history because even the tyrannical pencil of the censor cannot erase it from there (yet). AndrewJFulker (talk) 14:29, 13 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess I am that one particular editor so let me repeat here the paragraph about Staines-upon-Thames, as I left it.
 * "On 15 December 2011 the Spelthorne Borough Council voted to change the name of the town to Staines-upon-Thames, with the aim of promoting its riverside location and boosting the local economy, and a formal ceremony on 20 May 2012 will mark the official renaming. Information presented at the council meeting indicated residents of many electoral wards in Staines were up to 70-80 percent in favour of the change providing it would not cost them money. The name change proposal originated with the Spelthorne Business Forum. There were some public objections, and the local football team Staines Town F.C. campaigned against the change, attempting to present 134 signatures to the council but they were not received.
 * It is concise, accurate, balanced and encyclopedic. It fairly says there were people for and against the proposal.


 * You asked "Why do we edit?" In most cases it is to improve Wikipedia, to add information to the great Wiki knowledge base which is an encyclopedia, not a fanzine or blog or forum for witch hunters. There are rules and guidelines, set by the the Wiki community. One of our five pillars says "We strive for articles that document and explain the major points of view in a balanced and impartial manner...... Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong here."


 * I live 12,000 miles from Staines and have never been there, but that doesn't preclude me from being a good editor on this article. I have never met LeAnn Rimes or Melanie Amaro either, and I have no real interest in pop singers, but I have edited those articles to improve them (and several thousand others). Moriori (talk) 22:36, 13 February 2012 (UTC)


 * There are so many things that I know nothing about. I find that the best way to find out about things is to ask an expert. I would like to think that the articles that pertain to medical matters on Wikipedia have been touched by those with expert medical knowledge. People with professional knowledge about engineering may have contributed to articles pertaining to their area of expertise. A fan of a celebrity may be aware of information that the average member of Wikipedia may not have come across. And when I want to find out about a specific place I would rather hear from someone who lives there and knows it well; they probably have more information and local knowledge than people who just have a vague, academic knowledge of the place. If I’m editing a page on a subject that I know little about I confine my edits to layout and grammatical syntax and leave the facts to the experts.  AndrewJFulker (talk) 09:58, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It's called research. Moriori (talk) 20:11, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * WP:NOR AndrewJFulker (talk) 14:45, 7 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I said research, not original research. Moriori (talk) 20:34, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Domesday map?
A bit puzzled by the text that says that the town:


 * appears on the Middlesex domesday map in the Domesday Book of 1086

As far as I'm aware, the Domesday Book is essentially a list not a map. Searching the web for 'domesday map', all I really get are web sites that link modern maps to text from the Domesday Book. No sign of any maps from 1086. So I'm going to amend the text to remove the reference to maps. If I've misunderstood, please feel to revert, preferably with an explanation. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 10:49, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

A Word of Warning
To all those good faith editors of this page about Staines. We do appreciate all your knowledge and hard work. We know that you have lived in Staines perhaps all of your life. We know that you have an intimate knowledge of the town and all its workings. Maybe, like me, you have a family history with the town that goes back generations and are related to sons of the town listed on the war memorial. You can probably remember where that war memorial used to be before they moved it. Twice (or more). You can name the famous characters of the town and know why the roads and schools are named after the people they are named after. Indeed you have a wealth of knowledge that is both valuable and interesting. You may have been present at momentous events in the town’s history, or in the room at council meetings where decisions were made. I only wish that you were allowed to edit this page and add that information.

Unfortunately there are those who will not allow this. They will delete your information, revert your edits and label your contributions as “appalling”. You are right, this is a terrible thing. It is selective censorship by the few and it is done in a bullying and aggressive manner. We have tried to open a reasonable discourse, but this has not been accepted. Suggestions to “find the middle ground” and “remain neutral” or to “talk about the change” have been met with responses that tell us that we “do not comprehend”. We have met with a stone wall that does not allow compromise, with a bullying attitude. We are threated that we will be blocked, and we have been blocked.

This saddens me. And as much as I like the town and visit it regularly (unlike editors who live on the other side of the world) I will no longer visit this page. If it is not edited by those who know and love the town best, then I do not want to read it. AndrewJFulker (talk) 14:07, 19 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I grew up in Staines and it frankly baffles me that anyone could love the place - let us not forget that until the lino works closed Staines's most notable feature was its incredible smell, let alone that the town's principal claim to historical fame was being burned to the ground by Boudicea, and who could blame her, but:


 * If the name change was a stitch-up - and realistically I imagine it was - Wikipedia will only reflect that if there are reliable sources demonstrating that it was a stitch up. That's all that's going on here. Pinkbeast (talk) 16:30, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Staines-on-Thames
I see someone has changed all the instances of Staines to Staines-on-Thames. This is rather premature, Spelthorne council will vote on the name change at a meeting on 15th December ( http://www.spelthorne.gov.uk/cou_faq_stainesuponthames ) In any case, the proposal is to rename it to 'Staines-upon-Thames' 204.4.131.140 (talk) 11:52, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree. The council website and the BBC news both state that it will be 'upon' and that it won't be decided until the meeting in December. I think it should be reverted until it is official. AndrewJFulker (talk) 12:40, 25 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Does anyone have a reference confirming that the council has the authority to change the name? I'm not saying the name change isn't real - but the idea that a council can change the name of a town is somewhat novel - it would be good to explain how they were able to do this if indeed they really have this power Roybadami (talk) 22:15, 15 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The council does not have any formal power to rename Staines.
 * Borough councils can change the names of their borough and of the electoral wards comprising it. They also have statutory control of local street names and house numbering. Borough councils determine civil parish (aka town) name changes requested by the relevant parish or town council within their borough. But there are no town councils or parishes within the borough of Spelthorne. So the most the council could formally do is rename Staines ward and Staines South ward for borough elections.
 * The council's formal resolution tacitly acknowledges this in its somewhat pleading tone:
 * "The Council considered a recommendation from the Cabinet on changing the name of Staines to Staines-upon-Thames. Resolved that the Council: 1. Now calls Staines by the new name of Staines-upon-Thames. 2. Calls upon Surrey County Council and Runnymede Borough Council to likewise adopt the name of Staines-upon-Thames for all official business. 3. Calls upon residents, businesses and public bodies to refer to Stainesupon-Thames instead of Staines; and 4. Updates the Local Land and property Gazetteer to reflect the change and request Runnymede Borough Council to do likewise." (voting: 25 for, 4 against, 6 abstained) – Minutes of the Council meeting of Spelthorne Borough Council, 15 December 2011, item 322/11
 * The council does control the Local Land and Property Gazetteer, which formally exists to record the names of streets for notifying roadworks. In practice, the LLPG is probably the most comprehensive UK address register but is not binding on Royal Mail, so postal addresses often differ from council preferences to reflect delivery logistics or historical differences. In this case, however, Royal Mail subsequently chose to rename the STAINES post town, so local postal addresses do now reflect the council's wishes. That, in turn, means that postal address databases are likely to use the new name as the "official" address.
 * — Richardguk (talk) 00:39, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Sea Cadets
Can I suggest that the following paragraph is moved (by someone with more expertise than me) imto a new section called 'Community Groups' or similar, which might also mention the scouts, guides, brass band, acting, horticultural etc groups within Staines. I feel it does not really belong in the 'Sports' section. "The town is also home to T.S Thamesis, Staines and Egham Sea Cadet Corps. This is a uniformed youth organisation for young people aged between 10 and 18 years old. They meet in The Lammas Recreational Ground, Staines." Northern winter (talk) 21:29, 22 May 2012 (UTC) Northern winter
 * It is unusual inland in Britain to have a sea cadets, so should be mentioned more than horticultural - a step too far in analogy. I spotted it was much more verbose and sounded too advertorial before, but even now it has some way to go, let's leave it to others to trim it.  I think 'Staines and Egham' should be stated as they share in relatively few things; the river is most certainly one. -  Adam37   Talk  21:09, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Co-Ordinates
Google Earth has the co-ordinates at 51.4315, -0.5155. Screenshot. Previous co-ords were located in residential area some distance away from Google Earth location. --One Salient Oversight (talk) 21:54, 8 June 2015 (UTC)


 * We've gone through three sets now: 51.433°N 0.497°W which is indeed in some random residential street,  51.432533°N 0.518241°W which I erroneously reverted and is the A308 roundabout, and now  51.4315°N 0.5155°W which, Google Earth or no, is also some random residential area. (If you are not familiar with Staines, it's worth noting it's a very odd shape because of the old linoleum works. This is an incredibly smelly process, and so almost all the town is upwind of the town centre.)


 * Surely we can do better. We could use the railway station, the old town hall, the centre of Staines High Street... Pinkbeast (talk) 23:47, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * After checking the history I made the decision to change the co-ordinates to the Bridge itself, which was an important feature in Roman Britain. I considered the moors because of neolithic evidence but Google Earth showed that it was too far away. The London Stone location was also a possibility but that got moved around too much in the past few hundred years. Since the bridge was so important to the creation of the town in Roman Britain, I've focused in the co-ordinates there. Yeah it may not be the *exact* location but it is better than any so far (including Google Earth's own location). --One Salient Oversight (talk) 03:47, 11 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Seems fine. Sorry about the kneejerk revert earlier. It's not quite where the Roman bridge was, but that would probably give us a marker on Church Island, which would also not be very informative to the modern viewer. Pinkbeast (talk) 13:37, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

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The hall
Is the Old Town Hall so named because of its age or because it is a former town hall? Moriori (talk) 20:21, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It is a former town hall and became known as the Old Town Hall when it stopped being one, but I have no cite for this, alas. Pinkbeast (talk) 15:12, 6 February 2018 (UTC)