Talk:Stana Katic/Archive 1

Croatian or Serbian
References 4,5,6 are nonsense! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.93.170.86 (talk) 19:55, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

"Of Dalmatian origin?" Goddamn it, she's not a dog. She's either Croatian, Serbian or whatever... Baks (talk) 21:46, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

"Her parents are both Serbian, and she was born in Canada. Thus she is Canadian of Serbian origin. Thats why they ran away from Croatia. I know the condition, because I am one of those people. I also know someone that knows her family, and they go to Serbian church. BTW, although I am Serbian, I have cousins who are Croatian. I also have Greek cousins. I have Irish cousins. One of my cousins got married to a Croatian. Another to a Greek. Sister to Irishman. So, how hard is that to comprehend? Not at all. Her cousin can be Swahili for all we care, but her parents are Serbian. Her kids could be Jewish, German, Black, Indian, Hispanic. Who cares. " —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alser (talk • contribs) 17:17, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Stana Katic is NOT of croation decent. Both of her parent are Serbs, born in Dalmacia. I live in Hamilton, Ontario where Stana was born. Her cousin told me she is pure Serb. (unsigned comment by 24.213.84.51 on 21 September 2009.)

This phrase makes zero sense: "born in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada to Croatian parents in Croatia, who emigrated from Croatia." I don't know the facts, so I can't fix it, but this sounds ridiculous.--75.27.35.230 (talk) 02:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * It's actually kind of funny, though. -Lisa (talk) 20:10, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

here is says that she is Croatian, and her parents are cousins to a popular Croatian actor who is a Croat: link. The line "Stana Katić rođena je u Kanadi, ali je hrvatskog podrijetla - roditelji su joj iz Dalmacije i rođaci su splitskog glumca Sime Katića" means "Stana Katić is born in Canada, but she is of Croatian origin - her parents are from Dalmatia and are cousins to the Split actor Šime Katić.

I know this doesn't necessarily confirm her ethnic group, but one thing that all sources have in common is this: her parents came from Croatia (i.e. Dalmatia). So how about, instead of saying she is either Croatian or Serbian, we just say that her parents came from Croatia? This is the most efficient, factually accurate, and verifiable way of saying it. --OettingerCroat (talk) 09:04, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

Those links after statement that her mother is Croatian are really not realible- couple of links from croatian tabloid press where they state she's "our girl" just because her parents were born in Dalmatia-so are Serbs and Italians, so are they also by this definition Croatian?! Those articles are so stupid it causes nausea. I'm not disputing that her mother could be Croatian, the important thing would be to state her oppinion because I know lots of people from former Yugoslavia who come from mixed heritage- and are completely one side oriented and sometimes more "Serbian" and "Croatian" than others. Jarovid (talk) 03:10, 2 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I Agree. The links that were added are nothing more than cheap tabloids. One of them even claims that her parents allegedly emigrated from Croatia, LOL:). I think that it is best if that sources are not included at all. At least until some reliable source is found, preferably from an interview with her (in English) where she answers the questions by her self.Ratipok (talk) 22:17, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Year of birth
On her IMDB profile it says she was born in 1978, not 1980. Which is correct? She looks 30 to me! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.93.142.68 (talk) 17:20, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * There isn't much look difference between 29 and 31, so "about 30" is right either way! MVillani1985 (talk) 03:25, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Middle Name
Stana Katic's middle name is not Jacqueline. It's unclear where this rumor started. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.168.161.68 (talk) 16:17, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

The reference to her name also does not seem to mention any middle name. Should be removed by someone who can edit.86.182.185.106 (talk) 02:58, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

I have reverted the edit that takes her middle name out of the lead. Some consensus will have to be reached as to how her name should be listed, i.e., whether she was born with the middle name Jacqueline, etc. I at first thought that the editor who removed the middle name put in the reference about the DVD and her saying her name. I was wrong about that. My assumptiion - but it's unclear and should be clarified - is that someone heard her say the name Jacqueline and put in the reference in support. Don't know, but we're going to have to be clearer about this if it's being challenged. If we can't find good enough references for the middle name, then it should be taken out, but it must be taken out everywhere, not just in one spot (it's also in the infobox).--Bbb23 (talk) 15:41, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

The reference made to her middle name should be taken out, it's been confirmed by Stana (via her official, verified Twitter account) that her middle name is indeed not Jacqueline. http://twitter.com/#!/Stana_Katic/status/41689463708979200 99.82.245.98 (talk) 05:32, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Languages
In addition to English, she speaks Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian, Slovene, French and Italian. I thought Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian are essentially a same language called Serbocroatian. Meaning that those are only dialects. 85.217.50.138 (talk) 22:05, 24 October 2010 (UTC)


 * It's a neverending pissing contest between lingual fascist in the Balkans that argue there are differences between those 'languages' significant enough to mark them as languages, and Yugoslav-nostalgics who stick to the idea that there is validity in calling the common language of southern Slavs the 'Serbocroatian' -- i.e. by the name of two most numerous ethnicities using it. Ironycally, it was actually 'Ilyrian/Serbo-Croatian-Unity' champions in the 19th century who made it possible to now claim that there are actual differences by using phonetic transcription for the differentiating Slavic 'yata' and 'shta' instead of a common grapheme for each. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.250.108.155 (talk) 09:56, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

oh god you're ignorant...american? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.76.228.201 (talk) 20:46, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Actress "Nationality"
I changed the lead to indicate that she's an American actress because she gained notability as an actress in America. Another editor reverted my change saying in the edit summary that "her nationality is still Canadian regardless of where she becomes famous." First, to the extent it even matters, Katic has dual citizenship (it's what she says in her resume on her website). Second, She may be Canadian by birth, but what we're describing is what kind of actress she is, and she's gained her notability as an actress in the US. WP:MOSBIO alludes to this, but it's directive is open to some interpretation: "The opening paragraph should have: ... 3. Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity); 1. In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national (according to each nationality law of the countries), or was a citizen when the person became notable." My view is that the key is not the citizenship of the person when she became notable, but the country, particularly, as here, the person has done all of her acting in the US. If someone were a French citizen and went to England when she was nine years old and remained in England the rest of her life (but also remained a French citizen), would she really be considered a French actress? What if she was one day old when she moved to England?

If no consensus can be reached, one way around the problem is to change the opening sentence to read: "Stana Jacqueline Katic (born April 26, 1978) is a film and television actress." Then, let the body of the article explain her background.

Comments?--Bbb23 (talk) 20:50, 11 November 2010 (UTC)


 * No one has responded, even the editor who reverted my changes. Therefore, as a compromise, I'm going to change the article to be neutral on the issue of nationality in the lead. Please do NOT revert without first coming here to discuss.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:08, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

just to add that sources referred that her mother is Cro are write about something alse none said that her mum is Croat..It said that her parents are from Dalmacija not that mum is Croatian — Preceding unsigned comment added by Darkvindak (talk • contribs) 14:41, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Revised the intro. She's Canadian of Serbian and Croatian descent. She's popular in the U.S. for her role as Beckett, but that does not define her as solely American when she clearly holds citizenship in both. Added the note of her dual citizenship. Pejorative.majeure (talk) 00:24, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * An WP:SPS is not a great source for anything in a bio article, but it is somewhat acceptable for nationality. However, please use a permanent archive of that page because an official website is not a permanent thing.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:40, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from HZ64, 27 February 2011
Her name is only Stana Katic without the "Jacqueline" according to her self.

The source is her tweet from 3:41 AM Feb 27th "Stana Jaqueline Katic? Never heard of her. It's Stana Katic. No Jaqueline." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.149.145.126 (talk) 22:10, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

HZ64 (talk) 22:37, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Baseball   Watcher  23:45, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I have made the change and removed 'Jacqueline' as her middle name. Baseball Watcher, it's kind of hard to provide a reference to prove a negative. The change was requested because she does not have a middle name (1 2)! I don't know why 'Jacqueline' is listed as her middle name on this page, but she has confirmed via Twitter that it's just Stana Katic (3). Also, see the discussion on this very page under middle name.
 * I'm completely in awe that despite our policies espousing 'accuracy above all else' for WP:BLP issues, we still cannot get something as simple as a name right. Especially when it has been pointed out as wrong by four people on this page alone, not to mention the subject of the article. The issue is further muddied by the fact that many sites take their information from Wikipedia, so many mirrors still list the middle name. If anyone has a reason to re-add the middle name despite the actress stating that it does not exist, please post your reasons on this talk page.  Dubious Irony  yell  06:51, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The edit adding her middle name was made about a year ago by Dgarq here. Another edit was made by Dgarq adding Katic's fan website as the source here. The fan website still says her middle name is Jacqueline. User:Dgarq was blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet shortly after on May 3, 2010. Several editors tried to undo the middle name addition because a fan website is not a reliable source. However, another editor added it back in without the fan website source, and for some reason, no one touched it. There was far more controversy at the time about her ancestry than about her middle name, so it appears to have just slipped back in.

At this point, I'm in favor of leaving her middle name out, but not because of the tweet. I, like others, am uncomfortable relying on Twitter for information. However, because the only source for her middle name (other than Wikipedia and its many mirrors) is the fan website, there's no reliable source that her middle name is Jacqueline. It can be reinserted if someone finds a reliable source.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:06, 25 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree with your assessment, Bbb23. I removed the name in the spirit of WP:BRD, as an uninvolved editor. I agree that a tweet is hardly the ideal source (being OR and, well, Twitter) but I think it really clarifies the issue for the editors here who might otherwise be on the fence. It's interesting that it was added by a blocked editor. I checked her 'official' site (stanakatic.com) and there's no mention of a middle name. I wonder how many websites quote her name incorrectly because of Wikipedia? This is a great example of WP:CIRCULAR.  Dubious Irony  yell  01:51, 26 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Just as an aside, since when is an unofficial fansite a reliable source? Especially in the face of all the more reliable websites that do not quote a middle name. We really should hold BLP all articles to a higher standard.  Dubious Irony  yell  01:54, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Quantum of Solace
Should the article include that her role "Corinne" in Quantum Of Solace is a Canadian Secret Service Agent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.187.111.91 (talk) 21:10, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I dunno, it's a pretty minor role, why do you think it's important?--Bbb23 (talk) 21:28, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Monte-Carlo material
If I understand how this works, anyone online can vote who's the most glamorous actress among several candidates. This strikes me as frivolous. Are there any controls? Even assuming readers of the website matter, is there any scientific accuracy to this "poll"? As a courtesy to Tony, I'm not reverting, but why does this belong in the article? Am I missing something?--Bbb23 (talk) 02:21, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Firstly, I don't know if it is 100% online vote or part vote and part selection committee/jury. Secondly, there are many people's choice awards that are considered notable.  Third, I believe when the ceremony is held on June 10, she will actually win some sort of award for this.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:13, 5 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Not sure I agree with your reasons, but unless someone else objects, I won't argue that the material should be removed.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:34, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Proposed main image swap
How about using this flickr image as the main image?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:22, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * How come it says below the picture that (19 months ago) it was being used in the article?
 * Because I spent some time chasing thru Flickr trying to get images of Stana. The left two are ones which I sourced and uploaded. Tabercil (talk) 22:07, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't have any objection to using the picture. It certainly looks more like her on the TV show than the current one, although I don't know what she looks like off the TV show.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:28, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, File:Stana Katic.jpg is the optimal main image. Not sure why the current one is in there. I will check the article history to sort out some past usages.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:59, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Let's go back to the one in the middle.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:27, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I have no problem with the one in the middle or the one on the left. Either is "better" than the one on the right.--Bbb23 (talk) 20:31, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I think the one in the middle is the best option. The one on the right is too "fake" (i.e. it's clearly a professional shot) imho and the one on the left is only the face and hair - I think infobox pictures should show both face and upper body. Note: Tony notified me about this discussion at my talk page. Regards  So Why  21:03, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually I think the status quo is fine - my preference is to always use the most professional and accurate-looking image as the lead one. Maybe the only change I'd say to do is swap the bottom image for the cropped version. Tabercil (talk) 22:07, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Why is the right one more "professional" or more "accurate"?--Bbb23 (talk) 22:09, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes. I don't know too many professionals who don't know how to adjust their lighting and I don't think the effect looks so hot (not a statement on the subject).--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:12, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Heh. I don't much like the picture on the right, either. Looks mannered to me.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:36, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Why is it more professional? Well maybe because it was taken by a professional? Photographer's name is Tyler Parker, and there is a website for him at tylerwilliamparker.com. As for the accurate part, that's in case you get an image which is dramatically divergent from what she looks like, such as gold-painted ala the woman in Goldfinger. Tabercil (talk) 00:44, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Heh. It may have been taken by a professional, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. :-) After all, a "professional" photographer is someone who makes money off his work, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's better than a skilled amateur. Do you think the middle picture, which a few of us prefer, is akin to the Goldfinger woman picture?--Bbb23 (talk) 00:52, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
 * No, all three are (to me) visible accurate. It's just that some people get photos of themselves taken when wildly made up. I mean, imagine the lead image of David Lee Roth being a free use version of the cover of Eat 'Em and Smile?  Tabercil (talk) 01:00, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

It seems like a consensus to change to the one in the middle.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 12:31, 4 October 2011 (UTC) Personally, I think the splash page picture should be used (the one on the right). It's the image used on her official site and the more recent photo of her. The Winter Olympics photo is two years old. She hasn't worn her hair like that on Castle since season 2, and besides, this is Stana Katic's page, not Kate Beckett. She might star in Castle, but she's in films as well. Keep the photo accurate to the actress, not to a single character she portrays. Katrak (talk) 09:52, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
 * You are free to open a new discussion on this matter, but the better thing might be to find a new current photo.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 12:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Serb or Croat Ethnicity, Nationality
She is older than the state of Croatia, so she could never be a croatian actress. Republic Croatia exists for 20 years or so.

She is not of croatian ethnic origin, but of serb one ( Reference here http://www.superiorpics.com/stana_katic/ ). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.82.140.185 (talk) 21:48, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

Serb/Croatian interests
With all this talk of ethnic culture, should this article have any of the following tags: WikiProject Serbia, WikiProject Croatia, WikiProject Cultural Heritage of Serbia?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:21, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I dunno. To me, it's all a side show as I don't see how her heritage, whatever it is, has much to do with her notability. However, perhaps you could ask the projects themselves if this kind of article interests them.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:25, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * And since her Yugoslavian heritage really has nothing to do with her notability, I don't see any real point in including the Serbian or Croatian forms of her name. Note, FWIW, that she pronounces her last name in an anglicized fashion.  I would favour taking out the Serbian and Croatian name info from the opening sentence.  —  Rich wales (talk) 21:46, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with you, but my guess is you'll get pushback (not in the form of discussion but through edits).--Bbb23 (talk) 22:47, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Where it is known that an individual is of foreign extraction, local names are provided - suffice it to say that the raw Stana Katic form is merely a modification. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 21:33, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

It is actually a difficult call. Serbian requires a primary Cyrillic form followed by its Latinic transliteration when different from the title - in this case, it is a diacritic. As the Croatian alphabet (Latinic based) is the very same as the Serbian Latinic transliteration (known as the Gaj script), it was far simpler to just have Serbian Cyrillic and Croatian as separate entity. For subjects with only one of the two backgrounds, only one local form is needed (see German-born Australian tennis player Bernard Tomic). That said, I too agree that the background does not affect the notability but then in showbusiness it never does. At the moment, the article is short. Over time, as it expands, I will be happy to have the local forms moved down onto next paragraph (focusing on background and early life). So it's not all about "pushback". Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 21:43, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Your change is an improvement, but I still think even the reduced version is unnecessary to the article. In my view, it's an academic point that isn't worth making. Thanks for the heads up on my Talk page.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:22, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I see your point. To use a cliché, it's the thin end of the wedge! I know it does little here and is an academic point, we both do. The problem is the wider picture, if it doesn't sit here then sooner or later editors with POV-motives (in their removals of such forms) may use this article as an example to have the disagreeable presentation wiped off the system. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 04:47, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Her Photo Looks Really Bad
Her photo on her bio looks really bad. The one where her has long hair looks better. I tried to change it but then this person changed it back saying that they has sustainable evidence that the once of her at the winter olympics?? What is that supposed to mean? Change it people!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.172.208.97 (talk) 22:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * There is no such thing as a bad looking photo of Miss Katic. However, see Talk:Stana_Katic regarding this topic.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:39, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know whom I'm quoting, Tony, but, "It's funny because it's true."--Bbb23 (talk) 22:49, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Speaks "Croatian", "Serbian", or "Serbo-Croatian"??
We need to go with whatever the cited source says — regardless of our personal knowledge, understanding, or biases about the relationship between the "Serbian" and "Croatian" languages or dialects. Unfortunately, the source in this case (an article from a small local newspaper) does not appear to be freely available online. I found a copy on HighBeam Research's site, but it requires a paid subscription or "free trial" to read the full article.

Does anyone out there have a HighBeam subscription? If so, can you look up this news story and tell us exactly what it says — including enough context so we can see if the writer was quoting Katic herself (i.e., did Katic say she speaks these languages?) or if the writer was simply saying what languages Katic speaks without sourcing this bit of info? If the source is explicitly quoting or reporting a statement by Katic, then we should attribute the list of languages accordingly (e.g., "In a 2008 interview, Katic said she speaks ...."). And in this case, we would go with whatever Katic herself said, even though some of us will surely disagree with it.

If the newspaper reporter said what languages Katic speaks without saying how the reporter got this information, then I would still go with what the newspaper article says. Some people might still argue over whether this reporter (or even Katic herself) is a reliable source regarding the relationship between the "Serbian" and "Croatian" languages or dialects, but (IMO) it is unreasonable and inappropriate to drag this dispute into every individual Wikipedia article about every notable person who speaks this language / these languages.

I would point out, FWIW, that the existing Wikipedia articles on Serbian and Croatian currently identify each of these as "a form of the Serbo-Croatian language", with several sources cited in support of this statement — and although we are not to use Wikipedia as a source for itself, I would argue that these articles entitle references to "Serbo-Croatian" here (and elsewhere in WP) to a default assumption of neutrality, and that any general arguments over this issue belong at Serbo-Croatian and not here. If all else fails, it might be reasonable to add a footnote saying that Serbian and Croatian are considered forms of the Serbo-Croatian language, and citing the same outside sources here as are currently cited in those other articles — though I would personally consider this overkill and/or unreasonable divergence from the topic at hand (i.e., this article is primarily about Stana Katic, not her ancestry).

Finally, I would propose that continued edit warring over Katic's ethnicity, or which languages she speaks, would fall under existing Arbitration Committee discretionary sanctions relating to the Balkans (see here, and note that although the ArbCom case in question was about Macedonia, the cited sanctions refer to "topics related to the Balkans, broadly interpreted" and not exclusively to Macedonia). — Rich wales 17:11, 17 April 2012 (UTC)


 * I found a full copy of the newspaper story. Unfortunately, the source probably isn't freely available; however, I can tell everyone that the article says the following regarding the languages Stana Katic speaks:  "The 1996 West High graduate can speak several languages, including Italian, French and Croatian."


 * The story does not explicitly attribute the above piece of info. It appears that the reporter interviewed Katic's mother, but it also mentions material from "her TV Guide biography".  I assume the reporter didn't get this factoid directly from Stana Katic, or else the story would surely have said as much.  In any case, there is nothing in this source to support our current claim that Katic speaks Serbian and Slovene.


 * I would propose at this point to change the text so it says she speaks "several languages, including Italian, French and Croatian" (per the source). If other editors are unwilling to have our text say only "Croatian" (and not also Serbian, or Serbo-Croatian), I would do what I suggested earlier — namely, add a footnote saying that Croatian is a form of Serbo-Croatian, and copying the three sources for that claim from the Serbo-Croatian article.  Comments?  —  Rich wales 19:13, 17 April 2012 (UTC)


 * A gentle reminder — especially to the IP editor (who, since he/she is using multiple IP addresses, might or might not notice comments posted to user talk pages) — that edit warring is not considered acceptable as a way of handling a content dispute on Wikipedia, even if you are convinced that you are right and others are wrong. Persistent edit warring by multiple IP addresses is likely to lead to semi-protection of this article.  —  Rich wales 21:17, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure everyone will necessarily agree with my solution, but I've removed the sentence about what languages she speaks. It's not terrible important to the article, and it has in the past - and would no doubt do so in the future - created needless disscussion.--Bbb23 (talk) 21:38, 17 April 2012 (UTC)


 * That may be one solution. The main problem I foresee is that omitting this info is sure to tempt someone to try to add it back in — and we would be back where we started.  Of course, if someone does propose to add something about Katic's language abilities, we can (and should) insist on proper sourcing for the new material.  —  Rich wales 02:04, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Sourcing and relevance. We permit too much unimportant background material about BLPs, but, in particular, entertainers.--Bbb23 (talk) 13:07, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

New main image
I have taken the liberty of swapping the main image. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TonyTheTiger (talk • contribs) 21 July 2012‎