Talk:Stanford White/Archive 1

Early untitled comment
The 2nd Madison Square Garden (the one by White) was demolished in 1925. (I also wonder about the pertinence of any involvement with Tesla's mysterious structure, but Tesla material seems to get stuck in a lot of articles to which it is only tangentially related). - Nunh-huh 02:33, 4 May 2004 (UTC)

Double corridors
"double corridors for separate circulation, so that a guest never bumped into a laundress with a basket of bedlinens" I find it impossible to envision this without assuming bedrooms without windows. I would like to see a floor plan. Too Old 18:11, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * To pick an easily available source, the picture book by Samuel G. White, with Jonathan Wallen (photographer), The Houses of McKim, Mead and White 1998, will help you visualize this much-discussed topic. Wetman 19:42, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * Better! I've found a very simple floorplan that still shows the double circulation! see revised entry. Thanks for the query. Wetman 19:53, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)
 * I now remember a number of houses that I have seen with back halls and back stairs, but I still can't envision a completely separate system on a bedroom floor. Too Old 02:48, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Date of Birth
White's date of birth


 * Michael David 01:00, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
 * White's biographer Paul Baker has the birthdate as Novenber 9, 1853. Too.  Carptrash 02:17, 19 March 2006 (UTC) PS. What happened to Stanny's  picture?

University of Virginia Rotunda
Am concerned about stating that White restored the Rotunda to its original design. After the two fires, McKim, Mead & White did indeed restore much of it to Jefferson's original plans, but the entire north staircase and facade was their design. The Rotunda, in Jefferson's original vision, was a scaled down replica of the Pantheon, which did not include a north portico or staircase with a large Jefferson statue. I'm not sure of dates. Could someone take a look at this?beekman 18:50, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Face/Behind
How could he be "shot point blank in the face" and also "shot from behind [by] a crazed profligate"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.248.102.81 (talk) 02:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC).

That's what I was wondering as well.71.63.119.49 (talk) 23:24, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

This question
really (opinion) belongs here.


 * "Hold on, wait a minute, wasn't the red velvet swing in the so called "Giralda Tower" at Madison Square Garden? What is this building that you are talking about?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Carptrash (talk • contribs) 03:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Relationship with Evelyn Nesbit
Under the section death, the article states: "Thaw was the jealous millionaire husband of Evelyn Nesbit, a popular actress and artist's model, whom White had raped when she was 16." I am certainly not an expert, but the article on Nesbit seems to imply that there is more ambiguity to what exactly their relationship was. That article implies that the relationship was predatorial and manipulative, but not necessarily rape. I have currently changed that sentence to "Thaw was the jealous millionaire husband of Evelyn Nesbit, a popular actress and artist's model, with whom White had a manipulative and sexual relationship when she was 16 (to his 47)." I still feel that this is not clear, although slightly more accurate than the previous statement, so help is appreciated. Crito2161 (talk) 22:23, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Possible demolition of a Stanford White building
The last Stanford White designed building Tesla Wardencylfee Tower mentioned in article. May face the wracking ball! see N.Y. Times article May 5,2009 William Braod P D1,.The property has been sold and the developers are know to want the Stanford White Tesla Lab building destroyed!THEEDSON1 (talk) 21:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

William Watts Sherman House
I may be nitpicking, but Stanford White did not design the façade of the William Watts Sherman House depicted in the photo gallery - that was H. H. Richardson's work. White and his firm, however, provided an additional wing for the building. Please make the necessary adjustments. - an NYU architecture student 96.250.78.35 (talk) 15:52, 16 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Good catch. Log in and get to work! Wikipedia needs your eye. --Wetman (talk) 18:28, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Gallery caption
Surely the caption should read "Cosmopolitan," and not "Cosmopoltan"? Please, someone help. I cannot edit this page for boring technical reasons. Ragityman (talk) 22:20, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
 * ✅ Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:26, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Architectural career...
@Ken: Respectfully, I have to disagree. I don't know if you wrote the original passage, but grammatically, the subject of the sentence is "career," and you can surely see that "career"did not become the architect's assistant. It may superficially sound o.k., but it won't fly. Sorry. By the way, thanks for fixing the caption. My phone wouldn't handle the volume of data to let me edit. Ragityman (talk) 05:41, 15 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I've restored part of your edit, leaving out the change of "of the day" to "of his day", as being ambiguous about which "he" is being referred to. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:18, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Citations missing
Being you have so few citations, I will add 2 other of his designs which do have citations. Whether or not they are significant enough buildings to be in the article is up to the editors here. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 12:19, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
 * I had to remove what I put in: "He also designed the building now called the Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture which was built in 1905.


 * Sources are indicating Charles McKim designed it. 66.234.33.8 (talk) 10:11, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Editing
I've been working to address and rectify the deficiencies of this biography of Stanfordford White... it was sketchy and woefully inadequate. I added much needed information on his marriage, personal life, the Thaw trial, etc.---all with inline citations and references. A lot of time and effort, but well worth it! Betempte (talk) 21:46, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the article was in absolutely wretched shape until you came along!!! Look, this is a project 100% made up of volunteers, all of whom give up their time and energy to help improve the encyclopedia. It's good that you contributed, and that you added material and improved the article; I hoped you enjoyed it and will continue to contribute in the future. Next time, try to do so without implying that the work of the people who came before you was deficient in some way, and things were shit until you came along to be the savior, OK? Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:26, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

To: Beyond My Ken: I in no way meant to denigrate any contributions made by my fellow editors. All of us in the Wiki community want to feel our efforts have somehow enhanced the information. And yes, we are all volunteering are time and effort, which is a great deal in itself. (I've been doing a lot of editing lately---entries on multiple pages, and I think I was getting a little burnt out.) If my comments offended anyone, I regret that. Betempte (talk) 20:07, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that, I appreciate it. Your work to the article has been good, please don't allow my crankiness to stop you from continuing to improve it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:20, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

White molested his daughters
I am surprised that the fact that White also molested his own daughters was not included in this article. A book was written about this by White's great-granddaughter and I remember an extensive article on the subject in The New Yorker in 1996. Surely the man should be remembered for this as well. NaySay (talk) 16:53, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * okay, so find the source and add it to the article. I'll look too, later. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 17:27, 10 October 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can see, looking through the book by White's descendent, White didn't have any daughters. How old did you say you were in 1996 when you read this? I will check another biography of him to make sure but we really don't need to spend time chasing down rumors from the National Inquirer. Also that stuff about Low Library, designed by McKim and the Capitol in RI, designed by Mead & McKim, does not belong in an article about White. Carptrash (talk) 05:29, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I almost removed
this whole section because I don't see a lot of White here:
 * "McKim, Mead and White also designed the American Academy in Rome, which crowns the Gianicolo hill, and looks across the city to the Villa Medici and the Borghese gardens. An imposing edifice, the American Academy is built in the style of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the north and south wings of which McKim, Mead, and White designed in 1911. McKim, Mead and White also designed Low Library and other buildings on the Columbia University campus, as well as the imposing Rhode Island State House, which is similar in design.

My guess is that most if not all of these projects were designed by McKim. Even mentioning a building designed half a decade after White was dead (1911) seems ludicrous. Also, to suggest that Low Library and the RI Capitol are similar in design really begs the question, "In what way might that be?" I look forward to reading what other think. When I get back to my books I'll check it out. Then remove it. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 17:39, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
 * There is nothing useful about White in any of this. Say "bye-bye." Carptrash (talk) 05:30, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Reverting extended lede
I think Beyond My Ken has been rather sweeping in reverting my extended lede as too much POV. It was obvious that the lede was too short, and the new material all came from the main article. Maybe think again, and just delete what few words you felt were inappropriate. Valetude (talk) 23:18, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I disagree that the lede is too short, but I've got no particular problem with it being expanded, appropriately. The problem was that you used a lot of WP:PEACOCK terms - why not try re-writing it in a drier and more WP:NPOV fashion? Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:36, 13 October 2013 (UTC)
 * At that rate, the main article would need rather a lot of editing too. Valetude (talk) 09:59, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

White’s homosexuality or alleged homosexuality
I’m not sure what to do with this, but I decided to take the time to type it in here:

Before coming to South Florida, [Addison] Mizner befriended an openly gay man in New York, architect Stanford White. White would become a professional mentor to Mizner. In Aline Saarinen’s unpublished biography of White, she revealed him to be an open homosexual, something almost unheard of in those days.

His letters, while they never mention Mizner by name, describe a circle of bisexual and homosexual people with whom White often associated. Those people included, according to Saarinen: “[Augustus] Saint Gaudens, Joseph M. Wells, Frank Millet, Whitney Warren, Thomas Hastings and probably William R. Mead.” Nearly all, including Mizner, were associated with White’s architectural firm, McKim, Mead & White.

[Caroline] Seebohm’s book, Boca Rococo, not only called Mizner eccentric and flamboyant but referred to Singer as being both as well.

Source: “Addison Mizner: the gay father of South Florida architecture”, https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2017/10/addison-mizner-gay-father-south-florida-architecture/. This article appeared in several places (search Google) and I do not know which was first. deisenbe (talk) 20:45, 31 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Well, yes, there's no question that Addison Mizner was gay, but there's precious little evidence regarding White. Given his well-known womanizing, it does seem unlikely, and we can't be using an unpublished book as a source! The author of the page you link to seems unaware that regarding Mizner's financial backer, Paris Singer, in the Sondheim musical Wise Guys/Road Show, the name of the character was changed (from Paris Singer) when the character was rewritten as gay, because there's no historical reason to believe that Paris Singer was gay. We also shouldn't be using musicals as historical scholarship... It's also a bit odd to have to "reveal" someone had been an "open homosexual", because the "open" already implies the "revelation" had occurred in their lifetime. So, I'd say it's certainly possible, but so far we have no reliable sources stating such. If a source (like Seebohm) coyly uses dogwhistles, calling someone flamboyant rather than gay, we can't say what they wouldn't based on that! - Nunh-huh 22:13, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

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Edits needed
I came here to learn more about White and surprised (in "personal life")to see this: "A sophisticated collector of all things rare and costly, artwork, and antiquities, White was also a serial child molester." Citation needed, I would think! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.69.207.71 (talk) 02:40, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
 * The material cited is not supported by the source used, so I have removed it. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:20, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Thaw did not murder White
I have started a discussion at Talk:Harry Kendall Thaw that is relevant to this article as well. I suggest discussing the issue there, to keep the discussion in one place. —BarrelProof (talk) 03:52, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
 * I am on my way over, Carptrash (talk) 03:54, 23 September 2018 (UTC)

Trial of the Century.
I tried to delete the claim that contemporary newspaper reporters called the trial of Thaw the Trial of the Century. There are no citations that support this and the article referenced in the footnote, NYTimes, June 26, 1906, does not support the claim. But my edit was reverted. Can the person who reverted this edit please say why it was reverted? Thank youTanigaki85 (talk) 03:42, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I added two articles, both from The New York Times which says that it was called "The Trial of the Century". On my talk page (here), you said you had just written a book on the murder, and I explained to you that all information on Wikipedia must be supported by citations from reliable sources, and that your book might or might not be considered to be reliable, depending if it had been published by a publishing company known for it error-checking and correction, but that self-published sources are not generally considered to be reliable.  If you want to provide more information about your book, a discussion can be had on the reliable sources noticeboard on whether it is acceptable to us as a reliable source or not. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:25, 20 November 2018 (UTC)