Talk:Stanwood, Washington

Education
There were controversies a while back (circa 1990) about the teaching of evolution in Stanwood Schools. The Camano Chapel (on nearby Camano Island) is pretty emphatically creationist, and backed creationist school board candidates. Here's an account God's Country by cartoonist Mark Zingarelli, who (at least at the time) was living there (and who may deserve an article: This piece appeared in a national magazine, Mother Jones, and I've seen his work in quite a few places, but I'm not sure how well known he is outside of Western Washington). - Jmabel | Talk 02:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Discussion for the inclusion of the paragraph about bad odor
@Rainyda Let's discuss it here. I think there is a potential for adding a sentence or a neutral POV mention somewhere in the article, but I agree with @SounderBruce, a long paragraph in the lead is not really equal to the weight of the topic. Maybe you have thoughts on its inclusion SounderBruce? PersusjCP (talk) 19:19, 17 October 2023 (UTC)


 * This makes sense, thanks. Rainyda (talk) 19:25, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The issues of a single business that does not cause long-term or permanent effects to the city are not relevant to this article. Providing undue coverage would be a violation of WP:NPOV.  Sounder Bruce  05:55, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

sdᶻəlgʷas as a name for Stanwood
Both sources, the Tulalip Lushootseed Department website and the book Washington, West of the Cascades, use sdᶻəlgʷas as a 1:1 translation for Stanwood. The website indicates that it is the word used today for Stanwood and the surrounding area, and the book indicates that it was the word used back then for the area.

Looking at the word itself, the name refers to the land and river at Stanwood, not the original village. The original village just happened to be located at the place called sdᶻəlgʷas. In other instances, this is consistent with the discussion of the Snoqualmie settlement at Carnation, Washington. The modern name in Lushootseed for Carnation/Tolt is tultxʷ, as cited. The village there had its own name, x̌alalʔtxʷ (specifically referring to the main longhouse). The river, and the area at the mouth (and thus the modern city, which is how names in Lushootseed tend to be transferred over history), are called tultxʷ, not x̌alalʔtxʷ. I hope this makes sense. There are exceptions to this general pattern, such as Auburn. Following the previous pattern, Auburn would be named something like sbəbalqʷuʔ. Auburn however is named sladə in Lushootseed, after one of the original settlers who lived there (and the later, now obsolete name, Slaughter).

I don't have a citation for the name's meaning, hence why I didn't include anything about it, but the name's meaning refers to the land and river/slough at Stanwood. The name means "a pair going around/over" (from s-√dᶻal=gʷas, NOM-go over/around-SUFFIX_pair). This is because the river at stanwood, going upriver, comes together past the island to "go around" the point of land directly at Stanwood's downtown. PersusjCP (talk) 19:43, 17 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The article currently says that the village was named sdᶻəlgʷas, and should probably be updated to reflect the fact that the area of Stanwood (according to the sources) is called that. Like "The Stillaguamish had a village at sdᶻəlgʷas instead of named sdᶻəlgʷas." @SounderBruce @PK-WIKI. Regardless, though, I think there is precedent for both the inclusion and exclusion of names which are "only" referring to a previous settlement, and needs further discussion on the site. Possibly it is unique to every situation where it arises. PersusjCP (talk) 19:54, 17 October 2023 (UTC)
 * First of all, please do not revert to your preferred version of the article while there is an ongoing dispute across multiple articles; this pattern of behavior is not tolerated, especially when the other party is an editor in good standing. Given that Lushootseed is not a widespread spoken or daily language in the modern-day state of Washington, and these city names are not officially adopted by the city government nor are they in widespread use among secondary sources, there should be more caution in displaying them prominently. Remember that Wikipedia is a reflection of available secondary sources and should not be pushing a specific agenda or righting great wrongs. These articles are also GAs and FAs that have had a great amount of work (sometimes adding up to weeks of research), so please don't turn them into battlegrounds.  Sounder Bruce  06:03, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * I apologize for edit warring. I don't think I'm pushing any specific agenda any more than the article already is. I would also like to clarify that Lushootseed is a daily language. It's taught in multiple schools, tribal and non-tribal, and is used conversationally between speakers. PersusjCP (talk) 17:01, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * The two sources for this Lushootseed word we have are:
 * Washington, West of the Cascades, 1917, by Hunt & Kaylor:
 * Tulalip Lushootseed website. No source or meaning is listed for the term. Likely taken from Hunt & Kaylor. (You say this "sdᶻəlgʷas" is the same word "sŭl-gwähs'" but written with a modern orthography.)
 * These are the only two sources I can find using this Lushootseed word/words. It's not an official name of City of Stanwood. I can't find any WP:INDEPENDENT sources using the term.
 * As you said above, the word seemingly represents not a settlement but a geographical place, probably the river/slough at the point where the Stillaguamish river breaks on Leque Island and splits into the West Pass headed for Skagit Bay and the South Pass to Port Susan. (The 1906 Illustrated History calls this "Leque's point" in English.) The first of the unnamed villages in the James Dorsey Affadavit may have been located at or near this point (unclear on which landmass, probably Leque Island? "now embraced within the land owned by N. P. Leque").
 * The first appearance of the word we have is in 1917, 62 years after the Point Elliot Treaty and 51 years after the founding of Centerville. It refers not to a village but to a geographical feature, which is likely outside the city limits of modern Stanwood. It's not an official name adopted by the city or currently used by any tribe in reference to the city, beyond its single appearance in a Lushootseed dictionary.
 * Seems like a clear cut WP:NPOV / WP:OR issue, WP:UNDUE weight given to this minor and barely used term given extremely prominent and "official" billing in the infobox and lead. The appearance of native language in the infobox and lead MOS:LEADLANG is meant to give a place for widely used native alternate names and expose the native etymology of a place name (when that exists), not turn Wikipedia into a simple dictionary for translating every single place name into the native language.
 * PK-WIKI (talk) 17:33, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * As per Template_talk:Infobox_settlement and Australian Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 61, and also every other non-English settlement on Wikipedia, yes, Wikipedia is a place for putting the native language name in the lead and infobox. PersusjCP (talk) 17:38, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * You claim WP:OR yet your opinion that the place refers not to a geographical feature is literally disprove by the Lushootseed Dept source, where the word sdᶻəlgʷas is defined as Stanwood, the city. One day before any settlement there it probably referred to something else, but as humans settled in places the name becomes associated with it. PersusjCP (talk) 17:42, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * There is currently no consensus for including Lushootseed translations for every place name article in Washington, or for translations into other indigenous languages elsewhere in the United States. I encourage you to seek that consensus in the various wikiprojects. The RfCs for Canada and Australia (which was closed without firm consensus) have no bearing on the consensus within Washington or the United States.
 * Consensus does seem to exist in Washington articles for including native names when that term is in widespread use and/or is the etymological base for the modern name. Neither of those cases apply to Stanwood. We have not found a single instance of the word being used in a reliable third-party source. I echo SounderBruce's comments above that the article must be a reflection of the secondary sources, and that you should seek consensus before inserting non-widespread, non-official, non-etymological translations into articles.
 * PK-WIKI (talk) 23:28, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Consensus does seem to exist in Washington articles for including native names when that term is in widespread use and/or is the etymological base for the modern name. Neither of those cases apply to Stanwood. We have not found a single instance of the word being used in a reliable third-party source. I echo SounderBruce's comments above that the article must be a reflection of the secondary sources, and that you should seek consensus before inserting non-widespread, non-official, non-etymological translations into articles.
 * PK-WIKI (talk) 23:28, 18 October 2023 (UTC)