Talk:Star Fox Command/Archive 1

Uh?
Why was half the info removed and replaced with a direct Copy Paste? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deuxhero (talk • contribs) I think its because somebody thought it would make the article more accurate...it wasn't me though... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.190.252.176 (talk • contribs)

I screwed that up. Sorry! :( —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ebradford (talk • contribs)

Time limits
I added a comment about time limits to features, go get the latest nintendo power magazine if you want to see the screen shots i used for Info. Both screenshots show a time box with a number, one is on the map screen with 100 on the timer, the other is during a mission with Rob64 telling you that- time is running out. Of course I could be wrong, it could just be multiplayer in those pics. 207.118.191.107 22:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Since when is the use of a timer a feature of a game? Thunderbrand 22:23, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Hmm... Good point. 207.118.191.107 22:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I hope there's not time limits, that's the only reason I wouldn't get the game. But The Star Fox Command Website shows movies with timers... DarkLink Metroid 23:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * There are time limits. Bubble bursted!  --Luigifan 23:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Could I remove this?
Im wondering if anyone would've minded me removing the 1st half of the Famitsu magazine section in this article, the 1st half just said basically the same things so I dont think anyone would--208.190.252.176 15:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Speaking of which, would a scan of the article be a tall order? Xubelox 00:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)


 * A full scan would be too much, since you are now copying large amounts of copyrighted info. -- VederJuda 01:47, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Do we know the name of the female rabbit character?
I guess they haven't confirmed the name of the female rabbit character yet, but I guess there was a screen that said sky bunny, and im not sure if thats her name or the name of her aircraft (I think its the name of her aircraft), but could this character be Fay from the cancelled Starfox 2?--64.123.119.42 10:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Fay wasn't a rabbit, she was a dog. -- VederJuda 12:30, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, sorry about that, but is Sky Bunny the name of her ship or herself? --64.123.119.42 20:47, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Isn't it Lucy Hare, or is that tentative? DarkLink Metroid 23:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Shooter?
Isn't there a better classification for this game? --Gaming King 07:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I bet there is, but I dont know what classification--68.92.138.250 16:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Shooter works for the general idea, but I think that the best classification would be "on-rails shooter", personally.-- FreakyMutantMan 20:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The game is a free-roaming shooter, not on-rails. Thunderbrand 22:38, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, it's a flying shooter, but what's the name for that? --Gaming King 23:35, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I dunno. Nintendo's website lists it as "Action", but that is a rather vague term. In the Shoot em up article, 3D shooter seems to best describe Command. Thunderbrand 00:17, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's both an on-rails and free-roaming shooter, actually. FreakyMutantMan 19:34, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's probably better the genre matches the official source. So, should we change it to Action to match Nintendo's website? --Gaming King 07:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Might as well go with what Nintendo has. Thunderbrand 16:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a free-range 3D shooter, or something... DarkLink Metroid 23:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Arwing II
As anyone with some Kana-reading skills can tell you, Fox's fighter is given on the offcial Japanese site as the "Arwing II". However, someone keeps switching it to "Firefox", a name with no offcial source. If anyone sees the name of the fighter changed to "Firefox" in this article, be sure to change it back to "Arwing II".--Tenka Muteki 23:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Im sorry i had changed it back to Firefox because i had seen IGN say that was what Star Fox's new arwing was called, i think it might be called Arwing 2 in the Japanese version, but I think the in english version its called Firefox--69.148.26.243 04:08, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

News Websites are not a good source for offcial data on a game's story. Arwing II is the most recent and offcial name given to Fox's fighter, and until an up to date, English source says otherwise, it will be given as Arwing II.--Tenka Muteki 04:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmm...that recently added video source seems to confirm it. Xubelox 03:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm still not convinced. It could have been an early build, before the fighter's name had been finalized. Arwing II is the most recent and concrete name given.--Tenka Muteki 04:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I looked at the video on YouTube and it said that the video was from a Nintendo press conference in mid-July, so I think that it was pretty recent. --69.148.26.243 06:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It may have been from mid-July, but there's no telling how recent the build of the game was. I'll let this slide for now, but I have a feeling it the final version will call it the Arwing II, given Nintendo's tendincy to keep names universal across most of their releases.--Tenka Muteki 08:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

FireFox is an idiotic name, and it's more than likely it will be called Arwing II in the final version. Mozilla could possibly sue them for having the same name as their FireFox web browser, plus, Fire Fox is the name of Fox's Up+B attack in the Super Smash Bros. games. I'm going to edit it so that there is a note about it being called FireFox, but that it is not confirmed as the final name in the English version. --Gaming King 22:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Gaming King, your arguments are very poor and biased. The name of Fox's ship is obviously an homage to his SSB move, and Mozilla couldn't sue them over this any more than they could for the name of said move. No one says you have to like it (personally, I prefer Arwing II as well), but don't let personal bias get in the way of your edits. How is your claim that it's more likely to be called Arwing II any more logical than a claim of the opposite? We have 2 reliable sources with contrasting names. The article should reflect that. Xubelox 04:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Geesh, keep it civil, dude. You make a good point, to be sure, but the others seem to agree with me. Let's comprimise. We don't assume that FireFox WILL be the final name, but don't rule it out either. --Gaming King 22:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I see you've already taken care of it. Never mind, nice work. :) --Gaming King 22:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Arwing 2 is on the Command Website, so that's probably the final name. DarkLink Metroid 23:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC) Its Arwing II, I've confirmed it by asking players--..James.. 14:36, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Panther's laser system
It was said to be untranslated, but it's clearly "zapper". If anyone has any problems with this translation, let me know. Xubelox 03:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Confirmed Characters
I'm updating the confirmed characters based on this official source. --Gaming King 22:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks like you're a little late....Xubelox 00:16, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I know, but I'm earlier than everyone else at least. XD --Gaming King 22:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Bill - http://boards.ign.com/star_fox/b6338/123453994/p1/ 71.251.15.6 22:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
 * If someone could translate then could we put the characters and stats in the article, among the characters and stats that have already been translated?--208.190.253.240 14:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Leaked ROM
Is it confirmed that there is a leaked ROM of Star Fox Command, or is this just a rumor? I wanted to know because someone had edited the article confirming characters in the game, because some people who claimed to have a leaked ROM claimed that they were in the game--208.190.252.182 16:28, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Voice acting and other matters...
Well, obviously we've let this article get really outdated. If I can dig up some proper info, I'll be sure to edit it in. But one thing bothers me in particular: voice acting. The Japanese Star Fox Command commercial seems to have voice acting, but I suppose it could be the narrator of the commercial. Anyway, I think the source isn't convincing enough. Who knows? There could be multiple settings that may include voice acting. A couple of videos on the English SFC site do make it seem likely that there isn't actual voice acting, but it's not conclusive proof. I think we may want to ammend the note on voice acting.

On an oppinion note, I think a lack of real voice acting would be a step back for the series, because since the Star Fox 64 series reboot, every Star Fox game has had actual voice acting, and DS is obviously more than capable of it, as shown by games like Tony Hawk's American Sk8land. --Gaming King 23:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I have the multiplayer details, but I'm not sure where to put them, so I'll leave that up to someone else. Also, check out this video. It shows all of the characters except for Peppy. However, I don't know the names of their ships, so I can't effectively update that either. --Gaming King 07:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)


 * How about under features we put "multiplayer" and put the information there?--70.130.33.55 07:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Endings
Several endings for the game's story were posted and then removed. I beleive that these endings should stay up in the story section. The reason is because they are part of Star Fox Command's evolving and branching storyline. A note that should be added is that there has not been a single ending that has been rendered absolute canon. Like many games that feature multiple endings, one will be considered canon over time by the game's creators, perhaps at the advent of the next Star Fox game.

A spoiler tag already surrounds the section in question; readers have the option of viewing this information or not. I present several more images to support claims of these endings (56k Warning):



I am looking for other editors opinions, and any facts that can be provided to help restore and update this section. --207.179.136.20 05:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

"Sukuramujuto (translation needed)"
Hard to tell from the quality of the youtube source, but that's more likely to be "sukuramujetto" from what I can see. That would be a transliteration of "scramjet" into Japanese. 82.25.202.78 03:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Also, if her lasers say ka-bu and not ka-pu, it's fairly likely to be "curve". 82.25.202.78 17:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't Scramjet be sukuramujetto (スクラムジェット)? Never mind. That's actually what it says. Heh.

No longer outdated?
It seems fairly up-to-date now. Shall we remove the tag? Also, is that really Katt? I mean, she looks nothing like her... --Gaming King 21:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, her name translates to Katt Monroe. Her theme music also matches Katt's from Star Fox 64. --207.179.136.20 22:10, 11 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I was afraid of that. :( --Gaming King 05:14, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Single Player mode?
Are all those characters playable in single player mode? Or are some of them exclusive to multiplayer mode? The video doesn't make it very clear.


 * Characters listed are for single player use only. The only craft that can be flown, and it is mentioned in the aircraft entry and the Multiplayer entry, is the Arwing II in multiplayer. --207.179.136.20 05:45, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Most other Star Fox articles outdated...
Well, it seems that the vast majority of Star Fox articles are leaving out crucial info from this game, including some character details on the List of Characters, for example. I think we should stick "needs updating" tags where apropriate. Also, the spelling and grammar on this article could may need a check. "Sky Crow"? --Gaming King 23:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
 * It's most likely because the game hasn't been released outside of Japan yet, and I imagine people want to know the full storyline and not just the endings. Once August 28th rolls around, there will be a flurry of activity. Thunderbrand 01:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't know where Sky Crow comes from, but the translation phonetically comes to 'Sky Claw'. Of cource, Sky Crow could be interpreted as well I suppose. I'm changing it back until a source says otherwise. This could be an issue along the same regards as FireFox and Arwing II. --207.179.136.20 04:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The katakana for Falco's ship is much closer to Sky Crow (Sukai Kuro) than Sky Claw (Sukai Kura). Nevertheless, the latest website update states it as Sky Claw. However, the Japanese version might have intended it to be different. Xubelox 21:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Okay, looks like the name issue is settled. Now, how about that outdatedness? --Gaming King 05:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I'd say that it would be a good idea to put notices up. I'm mainly concentrating on completing this article though at the moment, but I'm sure that someone will take care of the others once the notice goes up. --207.179.136.20 15:41, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Andross
Someone has posted in the non-playable characters section that Andross makes an appearance. I'm removing this until sufficient proof can be provided.207.179.136.20 01:12, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Good move. --Gaming King 15:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I have the US version of the game, and Andross' ghost does appear as a minor plot point (he speaks during a boss fight). It's very minor, though, not sure if it's worth mentioning. HongrelLongrelMongrelDongrel 18:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It is definitely worth mentioning, and someone already edited it in. --Gaming King 01:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Screenshots
We should probably place some screenshots directly on the page to help demonstrate a few key areas in the article. The gibberish generator section, as well as the map of the Lylat Sytem are good examples. I can also think of adding some examples to reference, such as the map mode and battle mode. Could someone with the ability to do so, upload some screenshots and insert them appropriately into the article? --207.179.136.20 19:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Speaking of images, I have the full flowchart fo all missions and endings, which can be seen here . We'll have to find a way to integrate this into the article.
 * Nice chart, but it seems that belongs in a guide or FAQ, not an encyclopedia article. -- VederJuda 16:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
 * That's a pretty expansive chart right there. Nice job. Could we external link it? - Super Doogles 00:02, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Release Dates
Has a European release date been confirmed for this yet? BlackMask 08:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes it has, found it on the Nintendo UK website. It's the 24 November 2006 - Rich @ 22:04 UTC 31 August 2006

Arwing II is the final English name!
Hooray! This fresh IGN screenshot confirms the name as Arwing II! --Gaming King 00:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Good find. Now the debate is over. --207.179.136.20 02:55, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Timeline
Is there any official statement on when exactly this game takes place? The article keeps jumping back and forth between "one year" and "a few years". PlatformerMastah 02:31, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I dunno. I don't think the game actually specifies. I will look for a source somewhere to clear it up. Thunderbrand 02:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I think it said somewhere in the game that it was 2 years after Assault. I could be mistaken though. --207.179.136.19 15:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Considering the fact that Slippy is already engaged, and how much older Peppy looks, shouldn't it be more than that? Can anyone just find some solid confirmation? --Gaming King 01:55, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The best I can get for now is confirmation that Slippy and Amanda met two years ago. That info comes from her profile in the character gallery. --207.179.136.19 16:23, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Update?
An IP user added the Update template to the top of the page, but gave no rationale as to why it is there. As I can see nothing sticking out as "no longer being up to date," I removed the template. If someone sees something that would necessitate the template, feel free to add it back, but add your reasons here. Thanks. -Platypus Man | Talk 21:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Actually, the mission list was obviously more-or-less a fan translation of the Japanese game (which were pretty close). I've been picking at it and I've finally got the English versions in there. I didn't put that update template there, though. - Super Doogles 23:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Ship Names
It seems the name game with the ships is still being played. According to the American version of the manual, Wolf's ship is called Red Fang and Katt's ship is called Cats Paw Mark 2. In the game however, they are Wolfen and Cats Paw 2, respectively. Manuals are usually produced in advance of the game being finished, and they often have erroneous qualities, at least compared to the final version of the game. I've noticed the names of these ships flipping back and forth on here. Perhaps it would be prudent to include this information somewhere within the article, or perhaps as a comment to users who attempt to edit the article? --207.179.136.19 16:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I noticed that too. A little note might be OK. Thunderbrand 16:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I say go with whatever is stated in the Pilot gallery. That is (SPOILER):


 * Fox: Arwing II
 * Slippy: Bullfrog
 * Falco: Skyclaw
 * Krystal: Cloud Runner; Cornerian Fighter
 * Lucy: Sky Bunny
 * Amanda: Tadpole
 * Katt: Cat's Paw 2 (Laser: Curve - though I thought "Arc" sounded cooler =P)
 * Wolf: Wolfen
 * Leon: Rainbow Delta
 * Panther: Black Rose (Laser: Zapper)
 * Dash: Monkey Arrow
 * Peppy: Arwing
 * Bill: Cornerian Fighter
 * James: Arwing
 * Or leave a note. Whatever. -Super Doogles 16:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I added the manual names as notes in the table. Super Doogles 16:24, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


 * When I edited Katt's weapon, it was because she calls it an arc shot in game. Although, her profile and the manual both call it curve. Maybe leave a note? teaknikal
 * I'd say go with the profile and the manual. For instance, Panther could call his laser the Super Death Blaster and he'd be accurate, but the technical name is the Zapper. Leave a note if you can make it sound good. Super Doogles 00:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Stylus picture


I used this picture to show the controls of the game, also because this article has a big lack of pictures anyway, but it was removed. I want to know, is this necessary to show, or not? PlatformerMastah 16:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)


 * 1. You took a picture on a DS Phat lololol (kidding...)
 * 2. I like it, but really, you can't tell that you're doing anything other than poking the screen. To really get that to work you'd have to animate yourself drawing a circle on the screen and the resulting barrel roll, and that'd really be too much trouble. We might as well put this up and say "this is what a score screen looks like". (Feel free to, if you like.)
 * -Super Doogles 13:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see it necessary for a screen of the controls. Thunderbrand 23:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Ending pictures
Do you think it's right to have the two ending pictures? I've been thinking, and what if someone who hasn't played the game were to look at them accidentally? I know there's a spoiler warning and all, but it's hard to ignore two pictures like that.

But this article could use a few pictures anyway. PlatformerMastah 01:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably one is enough. Thunderbrand 02:50, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Interview with developer team
A good interview that can be used to create a development section, which the article lacks. http://ds.ign.com/articles/731/731088p1.html -- ReyBrujo 03:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Reception
Someone posted some informative negatives about the game, but none of them are sourced. I've added some Fact tags to be filled in. --Thaddius 14:57, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm eventually going to fix up this page and source the reviews in a similar manner to the other SF game pages. Thunderbrand 17:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Trivia
Someone deleted the trivia piece about Peppy's classic line. I think we should put it back in. --Gaming King 17:46, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Why was the list of single-player characters and ships removed?
Primarily a question for Steel359: Why did you delete the entire section on the single player characters, ships and attributes? That information is relevant to the article. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 19:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia's not a game guide. And it was an eyesore. -- Steel 20:19, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Then perhaps we should remove all notes and comments about the game? In fact, why don't we remove all the relevant details about all games on Wikipedia, like the list of fruits in Pac-Man?  Going a step further, we could just condense all video games into a list like the Star Fox characters list, with one or two paragraphs describing each one. :P  ... my point is that if you're going to enforce a "no-game-guides" rule on Wikipedia, you should do so for all game articles. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 21:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It is not something we can do fast. Soon or later an editor will reach those articles and remove the information that does not fit Wikipedia. Also, you can't compare Pacman with Star Fox (and I have my original SNES cartridge winking at me from above the bookshelf, so don't think I don't like it). -- ReyBrujo 16:50, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * For the record, "But that article has game guide info in it!" isn't a valid reason to keep game guide in this article. -- Steel 16:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should be kept out of the page. Thunderbrand 16:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Much like the Mario Kart DS article, this is stuffed full of game guide and the only reason I haven't removed it all is because there would be nothing left afterwards except the lead paragraphs (slight exaggeration, but you get my point). -- Steel 17:00, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Yeah, this page isn't in the best of shape, although I (or other SF contributors) hope to get to it and make it look like the other SF game articles. Thunderbrand 17:02, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I have added some move to gaming wiki templates around. The article should be rewritten in prose (lists are awful and discouraged). You can add character information in prose ("Star Fox Command has four chaacters available, Fox, Crystal, etc", in excample), about controls in prose ("Controls are handled almost exclusively through the stylus and different combinations of strokes, like a fast long stroke to a side for a roll. Firing is handled with the button", in example) and so on. -- ReyBrujo 17:14, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Did my first non-wikimedia wiki edit and added it to http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Star_fox_command . All set to clean house! Judgesurreal777 05:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Heh, looks pretty good! Thanks. Thunderbrand 14:41, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Part of my original point was that you really CAN'T have an article about the game without going into SOME detail about it. And I thought Wikipedia was meant to be as complete a repository of information as possible for topics of all sorts. My mistake, I guess... &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 19:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Naming
Is anyone here 100% sure the series is called Star Fox, as opposed to StarFox. The official site for Command doesn't split the title into two words, but sites like GameSpot do. So yeah, which one should we be using? -- Steel 21:43, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * It's always been Star Fox to me. A lot of gaming sites mess the names up, like how IGN has QUAKE 4 . Thunderbrand 22:50, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The Command page on Nintendo's website has Star Fox split into two words.  Rob  ert  23:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. It'd be nice if they were consistent. -- Steel 23:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism
Please stop the vandalism! The information that was removed is not part of Wikipedia's function, and it can by found at the strategy wiki, so stop or we'll have to get someone to semi-protect the article. Judgesurreal777 20:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Gaming article sterilization
I am officially protesting the new "policy" that seeks to sterilize these video game articles. The kind of editing that has happened recently to this article and to several others in the Star Fox series (and has been promised for ALL video-game articles on Wikipedia) has successfully stripped Wikipedia's account of this series of virtually everything that sets it apart from other video games.

I'm not just saying this because a lot of the work I did on these articles was destroyed. I honestly believe that what we have now is a much poorer representation of Star Fox Command and other parts of the series than what we used to have. The article may as well just say "This is a video game, just like all the other video games. You'll have to search the Web to find anything specific about it."

I realize you don't want to turn Wikipedia into a repository of strategy guides and literal copies of the games' instruction manuals, but I believe the staff that have been enforcing this somewhat nebulous "no game guide" policy are working at cross-purposes to the WP community, and they are ultimately hurting WP's usefulness as an online encyclopedia. As a case in point, recent edits to this article have done a lot to discourage me from continuing to participate here. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way about the way things are currently being run here.

I've said my piece. Thanks for reading. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 20:57, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Your work was not destroyed, as you will find a link to it above at the game strategy Wiki. Judgesurreal777 22:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, I appreciate that some of my work is available on another wiki, but I disagree with the policy of moving relevant information to other, non-WP sources that people are much less likely to know about. That's my main point. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 22:46, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * All the info I removed was moved there....I'm not sure what others removed, if you post it here I'll put it in the game wiki. As I jsut checked, they are already beginning to format it to their standards. God I love Wikis. Judgesurreal777 23:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * One such section that was not preserved can be seen in this diff by Steel359. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 23:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Could you address my original point, though? Like I said, this isn't really about me, or my work. This is about the fact that you guys are basically sterilizing Wikipedia (even just a small section of it still counts), and I believe you're not only going against the original spirit of the project, but you are making it much more difficult and cumbersome for people to find useful information on here. It used to be really easy to see, for example, what Krystal would have been had Star Fox Adventures not happened, but now people have to know exactly where to look in order to find that information. I've already had one person go "Whoa, I didn't know that! Wikipedia never covered that!" - it used to, but it doesn't anymore, thanks to your distillation efforts. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 23:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Forgive me, but I am a little confused. Could you list Exactly what has been removed that you would like to see returned? For example, probably the best featured video game article is Final Fantasy VII. Is that article uncomprehensive? What is it you want added that isn't covered by say, that article? Thanks Judgesurreal777 23:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * That's not a fair example. Final Fantasy has a heck of a lot more plot and storyline to describe than any of the games in the Star Fox series.  (FF7's article is indeed a great one, with tons and tons of references, and I agree with its status as a featured game article.)  But I dare say that, applying the same logic to that article as has been applied to the Star Fox series as a whole, much of the story information about FF7 could be removed, moved to a different wiki, etc., because MOST of it is not really interesting to those who haven't been following the series.
 * I made a point further up that the application of the "no game guide" policy to all video-game articles would also remove such essential information as the list of fruits in Pac-Man, or the importance of key strategies in Galaga (like letting your ship be captured, a then-unique feature in that game), etc. I disagree rather strongly with that policy, and I am making a statement about the policy itself, not necessarily about specific content.
 * As a specific example of how I think this policy has gone too far: I was rather put off by the fact that Krystal's entire article was replaced by a redirect to the List of characters in the Star Fox series article. Several pages of relevant and important information about Krystal were lost in that transfer - now all she has is a few paragraphs mixed in with roughly equal amounts of content for all the other characters in the series (except Fox, whose own article isn't terribly interesting).  There is still a small amount of info about Krystal's development there, but only just a little - not enough to really make her worth reading about. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 23:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I do sympathize, since I wrote individual articles on the places, magical objects, characters, and races/groups in the Lone Wolf (gamebooks) series, which I love, but when one of them failed GA, I realized there was too little real world info to make them good articles on their own at the present time. I understand they want more development info, but I was dissapointed I couldn't find any.

To your other example, of the how to play the game information, a lot of it is included. I cannot imagine a Pac Man FA article that would not include the fruits, since that is a most elemental part of its gameplay and is easily sourced from the game manual. To the information about good strategies to win a game, that is harder to source reliably, since it is generally fan information and doesn't get talked about in reliable publications very often, which is why, except where it can be cited, it is kept out.

I know it feels like your good work is getting chopped up, but I invite you to keep contributing, since though it is at times annoying to be edited like this, all but the FAQ's and purely fan info gets re-added in some form.

Thoughts? Judgesurreal777 23:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, one thought is that my point stands - I don't feel that this is a policy that can be consistently enforced, due to not only the different depths of information that apply to different games, but also differences in perception about what is interesting and what is not.
 * My main thought is that, much as I dislike the policy, that is the apparent policy here, and I don't really have much choice but to abide by it. As a result, I'm less likely to continue making substantive edits (and go back to just doing gnome-type work) because I don't really want to hassle with figuring out what content is deemed relevant to Wikipedia and what is not.  Thanks for the conversation, though. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 00:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * All the best! Just remember, we are going to make these Star Fox articles featured eventually, and we could use all the help we can get. And just by observing, you'll quickly pick up what is desired/required for these articles. Judgesurreal777 00:16, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

KieferSkunk, I agree 100%. What should we do? This sterilization is really killing the Star Fox articles. :( Oh, and it also saw the deletion of the trivia section! The article's not even interesting anymore, and most of our work is gone. --Gaming King 17:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * You should take note that Star Fox 64 and Star Fox: Assault are Good Articles, with Star Fox Adventures a nominee. Those articles would have most definately failed if we left in the game guide stuff and tables. Trivia sections are generally frowned upon, anyway. Thunderbrand 18:04, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
 * As I said, I disagree with that policy, and I don't think "sterilized" articles are necessarily better. To me, that seems to be an arbitrary decision made on the part of the policy makers.  It makes me wonder how much the "staff" really cares about what the rest of the world thinks. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 19:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Kiefer - I agree with you to some extent : if you disagree with the policy, you ought to discuss it on the project's talk page. At present it clearly states that such content should be moved elsewhere, "Lists of mere statistics, items, or other minutiae. The HP or weight class of a character is not important to the article; neither are all the swords available in the game.". --Oscarthecat 10:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, but a lot of the deleted info is not "lists of mere statistics, items, or other minutiae." --Gaming King 15:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm using the example given by Kiefer, and to me, it clearly falls into this category. Which piece of content do you particularly think belongs in the article but has been removed? --Oscarthecat 17:16, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm not talking about that instance. That probably really doesn't belong. I'm talking about the policy in general. Have a look at Super Smash Bros. Brawl, for example. --Gaming King 19:08, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Ok, let's be serious for a second. Do you think an article like what this used to be is better than something like Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater? -- Steel 19:13, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I personally don't see what was wrong with the earlier incarnation of the Command article. It had a lot of info that could be considered "game guide" material, and I agree that it needed some cleaning up at that time, but I felt (and still feel) that having as much useful information about the game in one place as possible, organized and delineated well, would give readers the opportunity to read as much or as little info as they desired, without having to link to other wikis where the standards aren't necessarily nearly as well-defined.  Personally, my aim in all of my edits to these game-related articles was to make them as interesting as possible to multiple audiences (both people familiar with the game and people who don't necessarily know anything about it), with an emphasis on what makes the game unique and memorable.  And I feel that the policy you guys are enforcing that strips that info out of this article is in direct conflict with that ideal. &mdash; KieferSkunk (talk) &mdash; 20:51, 28 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I feel we're not going to reach an agreement here. Your opinion of what belongs on wikipedia doesn't match up with Wikipedia's gaming article guidelines article. --Oscarthecat 18:29, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Articles on computer and video games should give an encyclopedia overview of what the game is about, not a detailed description of how to play it. Such topics should be moved to one of the gaming wikis: GameInfo, Encyclopedia Gamia, GamerWiki, or StrategyWiki, due to the pending deletion of the Wikibooks computer and video games bookshelf.